Biden clenches the nomination.

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gorfias

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Well listen to what he says, because there are 2 parts here. Hes making a joke about his young age compared to the average age of most senators, he was about 29 when he was elected to the senate and hes saying that he didn't have the big backers that most senators running do and the joke is that he was too young for them to contribute to his campaign and that is a good thing. As for the token thing in the second half, you could kinda argue that hes not wrong, assuming you are trying to look at it like its not a joke, he was the 6th youngest senator to ever be elected.

Anyone who is seriously trying to argue that that isn't a joke is just really biased against him, you can even hear the laughter in the audience so this kinda makes it look like hes being interviewed like on some kinda late show.
Sorry, cannot agree. He's an odd sort, talking about liking kids touching him and stuff. I do not doubt for a mili second that he was dead serious, but thought it kinda funny that so much of politics does work that way. And, sadly, it really does. Trump was the one that used to want to be doing the buying what Joe was selling.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Sorry, cannot agree. He's an odd sort, talking about liking kids touching him and stuff. I do not doubt for a mili second that he was dead serious, but thought it kinda funny that so much of politics does work that way. And, sadly, it really does. Trump was the one that used to want to be doing the buying what Joe was selling.
No, you're just wrong.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I compare the two to show the underlying moral logic of both decisions, and how they are equally abhorrent.
Then you might want to choose something else to compare it to since even the underlying moral logic is different.
 

Silvanus

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You are correct in that left and right are purely descriptive, but they're descriptive of parliamentarianism, and a good chunk of political philosophy in the last 200 years has not been confined to the chambers of parliament. In that sense, it is true in that it is a false dichotomy, in that it is a dichotomy imposed on an abstract social body with certain presumptions on the delegation of political agency. In this context, representative democracy means that the collective will of masses is instrumentalised for the function of parliamentary debate, transformed as political agency being indicated as the will for a particular set of ideals a candidate will carry to the talks and policy-making proposals. Within that constellation, the masses have totally alienated their right to exercise political action, so in the end it boils down to a value judgement, much in the same way that alienated labour means all labour is to some degree interchangeable from the point of view of the labourer relative to the amount of money and other material benefits that can come with it.
Sure, there's a disconnect between the priorities of the voters and the actions of their representatives. But that doesn't mean notions of "left" and "right" only have meanings within parliament. Most ordinary people who have some form of political awareness see themselves somewhere on that spectrum, after all, quite apart from who they vote for.

Consequently, both in how politics and economics are not things you can ignore, unless you have sufficient wealth to do it, which the masses do not possess individually, the choice to vote and the choice to work are both equally arbitrary. You cannot escape politics anymore than you can escape having to look for work so that you don't starve. With this qualifier for the constellation, someone seeing an economically advantageous choice, like Bernie Sanders, evaporate due to intra-party politics with a precedent for underhanded behaviour (not obeying its own formal rules) and the weight of ideology being against them suddenly turning in favour of that apparatus would mean either two things: contempt for the electorate, or compromise. And no amount of compromise is done because you get to decide the outcome at the negotiation table. Refusal to participate whilst witnessing this spectacle is a rational outcome from politics that alienates people from their own political agency.
Oh, alienation from the process is a foreseeable outcome, and to some degree a rational one. But a purely rational cost-benefit analysis shows substantial difference in the policy platforms of Biden and Trump, leaving aside any hypothetical other comparisons.

Refusal to participate is not really an option, because even a refusal to vote still has an impact. It's beneficial to one candidate (the eventual winner) and detrimental to the other (the eventual loser). As such, it assists one candidate over the other. It also sends the message that the parties do not need to concern themselves with winning you over, because there's more to be gained by catering to people who actually vote.

Unfortunately, universal suffrage means there's no such thing as complete non-participation. The choice still has an impact, and it's a bad one.

With the DNC trying to shut him out this hard, there is no other choice but to let the DNC die. The whole point of Sanders staying on the ballot is to get concessions out of the DNC at the convention. But if the DNC doesn't want to hear how much they need the left to survive, they don't get the left. They want to survive on trying to take Republican votes? Let's see if they can.

And it's definitely the DNC pushing this, because their explained reason is a load of horseshit, fuck these people.
Their explained reason for what? For not challenging the Board of Elections?
 

crimson5pheonix

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Their explained reason for what? For not challenging the Board of Elections?
No, the board's explanation. That it's to protect people from the Coronavirus. But if they well and truly honestly believe that, it's because they expect the progressive wing to be less likely to show up to the down ballot votes that are still happening, so it's a load of bullshit from the board.
 

Saelune

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Left and right are descriptive terms commonly applied to most political diametrics. That includes economics, social politics, etc. That's how they've been understood throughout modern political history, since they came into being to describe French monarchists and revolutionaries.

In terms of taxation, pretty much nobody would dispute that more "progressive" systems-- which place more of the tax burden on higher earners and corporation tax, and/or act in a redistributive way-- are associated with the left. The tax system placed a larger proportion of the burden of tax on the higher earners under Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy than it did under Obama.

This is in part, of course, because of their different starting points. Obama inherited a very different Overton Window with regards to tax. But if you're going to be making comparisons between Presidents in vastly different times anyway, then you cannot simply ignore tax systems have been vastly more progressive in the past.




So you're basing it on an assumption.

An assumption Sanders has been quite explicit in not making (see his statement on the matter), and using that assumption to justify doing the opposite of what Sanders has encouraged voters to do.

...And you believe this is the most effective way of bringing about the kind of politics Sanders represents.

With voters like these, who needs opponents?
You should know by now that I value human rights vastly more than any amount of money. No amount of money saved can justify the death tolls and human rights abuses that people like Truman committed.
 

Saelune

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Electing Joe Biden is also doing nothing, at least on that score.

Why are we even discussing voting for a handsy senile dullard responsible for mass incarceration and making it impossible to discharge student debt? The DNC can get serious and pick someone else or it can perish.
Its the people who will perish under 4 more years of Trump I am concerned about.
 

Saelune

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I think your fear of anarchy whilst your insistence on moral relativism, in that detention in one instance is more benign than the other already shows the cognitive dissonance and your own prejudices in calling me right wing. I refer you and your dengist talking points to my earlier posts in this thread.
You remind me of The Lunatic.

You suggested that the concentration camps for Asian Americans was justified, so I have no misconception about where your views and morals lie. Anarchy is just stupid, seriously stupid. When there are no rules, how do you even enforce that? Any enforcement inherently ends the status of Anarchy.
 

Saelune

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What's going to be awkward is when the never Biden crowd does more to create a left wing party than your blind support of Vichy Dems. As I said before, I hold the power in these elections.
I will believe that when someone other than Biden or Trump wins the 2020 election.
 

crimson5pheonix

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I will believe that when someone other than Biden or Trump wins the 2020 election.
You better believe the only reason the Dems even pay lip service to left wing ideals, whether they follow through with them or not, is because of people like me. If it were left to people like you, they wouldn't even be talking about expanding healthcare or raising the minimum wage.
 

Saelune

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You better believe the only reason the Dems even pay lip service to left wing ideals, whether they follow through with them or not, is because of people like me. If it were left to people like you, they wouldn't even be talking about expanding healthcare or raising the minimum wage.
LGBT people who hate being abused by right-wing religious bigotry?

Obama is the first pro-LGBT President.

People like you are too privileged to care about people like me.
 

crimson5pheonix

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LGBT people who hate being abused by right-wing religious bigotry?

Obama is the first pro-LGBT President.

People like you are too privileged to care about people like me.
And he only swept into office on a wave of left wing support. Support that he promptly turned on and revealed himself to be a right wing president. But you likely didn't notice due to your economic privilege insulating you from hardship.
 

Saelune

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And he only swept into office on a wave of left wing support. Support that he promptly turned on and revealed himself to be a right wing president. But you likely didn't notice due to your economic privilege insulating you from hardship.
My privileges comes from living in a Blue State. I want to share that with the rest of the country. You would literally prefer to throw an election just to spite the only people actually doing anything to oppose Republicans.
 

crimson5pheonix

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My privileges comes from living in a Blue State. I want to share that with the rest of the country. You would literally prefer to throw an election just to spite the only people actually doing anything to oppose Republicans.
They aren't. That's the point. Democrats don't help people. They haven't been helping people, they just have a cleaner image than the Republicans.
 

Saelune

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They aren't. That's the point. Democrats don't help people. They haven't been helping people, they just have a cleaner image than the Republicans.
Citation needed. Seriously, you have nothing but 'Dems bad'. Bernie is a Democrat. AOC is a Democrat. These are not coincidences. You want to push Dems left, you do it from the inside, not the outside. But you refuse to follow in their footsteps despite claiming to support them. They understand what it takes, you don't and that is why despite all your claims, you have no actual power, atleast none that you care to actually put to use.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Citation needed. Seriously, you have nothing but 'Dems bad'. Bernie is a Democrat. AOC is a Democrat. These are not coincidences. You want to push Dems left, you do it from the inside, not the outside. But you refuse to follow in their footsteps despite claiming to support them. They understand what it takes, you don't and that is why despite all your claims, you have no actual power, atleast none that you care to actually put to use.
If you think I haven't been posting clear repeated evidence that the Democrat part has no love for you, me, or anyone with less than 6 figures in their bank account, you haven't been actually paying attention to my posts. More accurately, what I know is, is that whenever Democrats have been shown to do something awful (like how Obama is one of the only Nobel prize winners to bomb another), you plug your ears and say "But Republicans!"

So of course you have no view of just how awful Democrats are as an institution.
 
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Thaluikhain

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What's going to be awkward is when the never Biden crowd does more to create a left wing party than your blind support of Vichy Dems. As I said before, I hold the power in these elections.
If that turned out to be true and a viable left-wing party came about in the US, being proven to be wrong about not voting is something we'll all be able to live with.

Unfortunately, it won't.
 

crimson5pheonix

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If that turned out to be true and a viable left-wing party came about in the US, being proven to be wrong about not voting is something we'll all be able to live with.

Unfortunately, it won't.
Well we tried blindly supporting Dems and that got us nowhere.
 

fOx

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It must be said, it is impressive that people actually buy into the very obvious lies that the democratic leadership tells about caring for minorities. And that the people here are willing to fight so fiercely on behalf of their owners, while meekly accepting that they know nothing will ever change.
 

fOx

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Also, I feel like my point about the earth dying in the next 10 years has been conveniently ignored. But atleast Biden will lie about loving gay people, and that's what really matters.
 
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