Trump Directs FEDs to End Racial Bias Training In Move to Further Inflame Racial Tensions.

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Seanchaidh

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I don't know about this specific program. What I do know is that not too long ago, there was a wide collection of articles (the Conversation is one of them) that all said the same thing. That racial bias training often failed to make a dent, or worse, had backfire effect.
This is precisely one of the reasons that activists are now demanding to defund the police; because nibbling around the edges with training programs and toothless oversight boards will not solve the problem.

It's why there's the idea of "intent doesn't matter, impact does" floating around (which is in sharp contrast to how law usually operates).
Not really. Liability for unintentional damages is not uncommon at all in the civil law. It's not even in sharp contrast to how criminal law usually operates; in the criminal law, all sorts of crimes are unintentional and impact is very relevant. The difference between murder and attempted murder. Manslaughter and reckless endangerment. And so on.

And of course all of this is irrelevant because the point of CRT isn't to select people for punishment but to stop various social ills. That liberals and conservatives have projected all sorts of retrograde carceral notions on it isn't its fault.
 

Hawki

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Not really. Liability for unintentional damages is not uncommon at all in the civil law. It's not even in sharp contrast to how criminal law usually operates; in the criminal law, all sorts of crimes are unintentional and impact is very relevant. The difference between murder and attempted murder. Manslaughter and reckless endangerment. And so on.
I'm not saying there's no liability, but as you point out, there's difference between murder and manslaughter. If intent doesn't matter, then in such a scenario, there's no distinction.

Even if we apply this belief simply to everyday interactions, it's still a terrible idea.

And of course all of this is irrelevant because the point of CRT isn't to select people for punishment but to stop various social ills.
And how's that going? Because so far, the CRT philosophy appears to have exacerbated those ills.

That liberals and conservatives have projected all sorts of retrograde carceral notions on it isn't its fault.
If there's a philosophy that states that everyone can be sorted into oppressor and oppressed, with the traits both interchangeable and non-interchangeable, then I'm skeptical of that being a good philosophy.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Bias training won't solve that ^

Defunding could.

I'm not saying there's no liability, but as you point out, there's difference between murder and manslaughter. If intent doesn't matter, then in such a scenario, there's no distinction.

Even if we apply this belief simply to everyday interactions, it's still a terrible idea.
The point is to make various phenomena stop and the intention behind those phenomena has no moral significance as regards making them stop.

And how's that going? Because so far, the CRT philosophy appears to have exacerbated those ills.
How so?

If there's a philosophy that states that everyone can be sorted into oppressor and oppressed, with the traits both interchangeable and non-interchangeable, then I'm skeptical of that being a good philosophy.
Literally not at all the point of it. This is the projection I was referring to.
 

Trunkage

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By the indications I've mentioned, such programs AREN'T working.

Again, if you start a program to combat bias, and all the program does is make people more biased, then how can it be considered a success or cost-effective?
I mean, at least Housemen comes with some stats

How about I say it as simply as I can say. How, comparing to say the 90s or 70s or 50s, can you say that today is more biased?
 

Hawki

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The point is to make various phenomena stop and the intention behind those phenomena has no moral significance as regards making them stop.
Completely disagree.

It's very easy to distinguish between actions that are intended to cause offence and those that inadvertantly cause offence. Or harm. Or anything.

Political polarization, demands for self-segregation, the Gen Z mental health crisis, the college campus insanity, demands for race-tiered pricing, backfire effect, identity politics, etc.

This isn't to say that all the blame lies on CRT, or even necessarily most of it, but it's played a role. Or, if I'm being as generous as possible, it's failed to improve things.

Literally not at all the point of it. This is the projection I was referring to.
I've literally provided quotes and links on this website that say "all of group X are racist/sexist/ablelist/whatever." There isn't any projection here.

For instance, here's a quote from the NEA:

"All white individuals in our society [the United States] are racists. Even if a white is totally free from all conscious racial prejudices, he remains a racist, for he receives benefits distributed by a white racist society through its institutions. Our institutional and cultural processes are so arranged as to automatically benefit whites, just because they are white."

I'm not sure how else you're meant to interpret this. Heck, you might even agree with it. But at least own it.

I mean, at least Housemen comes with some stats
I cite an academic article that says that prejudice training backfires. You should be asking them for stats, not me.

I can provide another one if you want:


Type in "prejudice training backfire effect" and you'll get similar articles saying the same thing.

I don't even think you can boil it down to stats. How prejudiced someone is is qualitative, not quantitative.

How about I say it as simply as I can say. How, comparing to say the 90s or 70s or 50s, can you say that today is more biased?
Where did I say that today was more biased from those eras? The point was that implicit bias training, as conducted in the present day, appears to have no effect on biases, or actually cultivates them ("pink elephant effect," or however the term goes). The reason I'm saying this is that published articles have been saying this for awhile now, and I'm willing to trust psychologists and social scientists. Maybe they're wrong. But I haven't seen anything published that these sessions have been succeeding, so all I have is what academics are stating.

But if we are answering that question, compared to the 50s or 70s? Less biased. Compared to the 90s? Debatable. But I'm not sure why this is being brought up, unless you're stating that any and all declines in prejudice were down to bias training. Heck, the IAT didn't even exist until 1998. So, what, everything from the 50s to 1998 was prejudical on the same level, but suddenly, the IAT rolled out and prejudice went down?
 
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Seanchaidh

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I've literally provided quotes and links on this website that say "all of group X are racist/sexist/ablelist/whatever." There isn't any projection here.

For instance, here's a quote from the NEA:

"All white individuals in our society [the United States] are racists. Even if a white is totally free from all conscious racial prejudices, he remains a racist, for he receives benefits distributed by a white racist society through its institutions. Our institutional and cultural processes are so arranged as to automatically benefit whites, just because they are white."

I'm not sure how else you're meant to interpret this. Heck, you might even agree with it. But at least own it.
That ^

is not

this:

If there's a philosophy that states that everyone can be sorted into oppressor and oppressed, with the traits both interchangeable and non-interchangeable, then I'm skeptical of that being a good philosophy.
And sorting people into racist/not racist is completely beside the point of CRT.
 

Agema

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Not according to CRT theory, or any similar analysis...
Honestly, I don't particularly think it's terribly useful to analyse an entire and complex theoretical system by cherry-picking some outputs from it that you don't like. By analogy, what you're doing here would be like taking Keynesian economics or utilitarian philosophy, pointing out some failures or problems, and demanding therefore entire thing be deemed useless, scrapped and wiped from human knowledge. Critical theory is a mode of analysis, not a set of conclusions. Especially not a set of conclusions which you're not representing fairly given little or no understanding of the working that got there.

Even after that, we're still all free to disagree with Anita Sarkeesian, and we're free to think of racism in other terms. At the point we're creating ideological boogeymen and launching anti-intellectual crusades against them, it's really just a variant of demanding that people shouldn't be allowed to say what we disagree with.
 

tstorm823

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That an ideology or intellectual process can reach error is not remotely the same thing as it always leading to error, or that it is valueless.
When a single theory can routinely lead to error, it is correctly called a fallacy. A fallacy can certainly find a correct conclusion by coincidence, but you can only verify that conclusion with an argument not based in fallacy. Critical race theory might accident onto something accurate on occasion, but the fact that it's arguments aren't worth believing without entirely separate arguments to verify means it effectively contributes nothing.

And that you would compare it to religion and ideology is just plain funny. It's supposed to be an academic theory, not a belief system. Hold it to the standards it wants to be held.
 
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Agema

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When a single theory can routinely lead to error, it is correctly called a fallacy.
No, a fallacy is a piece of faulty reasoning, or an incorrect conclusion that derives from faulty reasoning. It most classically relates to formal logical argument, where it represents an invalid or flawed piece of reasoning.

Critical race theory might accident onto something accurate on occasion, but the fact that it's arguments aren't worth believing without entirely separate arguments to verify means it effectively contributes nothing.
Aren't worth believing by whom, and why?
 

Trunkage

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I cite an academic article that says that prejudice training backfires. You should be asking them for stats, not me.

I can provide another one if you want:


Type in "prejudice training backfire effect" and you'll get similar articles saying the same thing.

I don't even think you can boil it down to stats. How prejudiced someone is is qualitative, not quantitative.
Just gotta ask. How do you think this article helps? It says the pink elephant effect is in... effect. True. But acceptance training was super effective.
 

Trunkage

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Here's a guy from earlier this year. He's very against the current system


Here the extract from the end:

WHAT WORKS
Although these facts would appear to make for a gloomy conclusion, there is no reason to feel discouraged, let alone defeated. After all, what these facts indicate is that there might be better ways to reduce racism and improve D&I interventions.
The ultimate proof of ROI or training efficacy must come from the measures organizations obtain within their own cultures. That is, to find out whether your D&I approach works, you should look for evidence that it works. This may sound obvious, yet it is not just rare for companies, but also for researchers to conduct rigorous experimental tests to evaluate the effectiveness of D&I training.
There are no clear-cut criteria, outcomes, or undisputed bulletproof benchmarks to determine whether racism and other forms of prejudice and discrimination have been significantly mitigated by training. Companies will probably want to look at improvements in people’s perceptions of the culture (by taking surveys), measure inclusivity and diversity (recruitment, promotions, leadership representations), and track a decline in counterproductive work behaviors, including a reduction in formal lawsuits, claims, settlements, and other reputational fiascos.
Whatever metrics are chosen, they would certainly need to go beyond what is by far the most common criterion for judging the efficacy of D&I interventions today, namely explicitly asking participants whether they enjoyed the training or not, which, in the case of implicit bias training, is rather ironic.
Finally, let’s not forget that pointing the finger at individual employees for their biases, whether unconscious or not, may reflect an attempted lack of accountability by the organization. Yes, individuals come with biases and we should try to contain them to avoid serious and shameful antisocial or counterproductive work behaviors, such as racism, and eliminate toxicity from the workplace.
And yes, it is also true that there is bias at the level of society and culture, in any society and culture, which companies may not be able to change. But leaders must think harder about shaping their own organizational cultures, creating truly ethical, fair, and inclusive environments, and acting as real-life examples of the prosocial and moral values they want to promote in their own organizations.
I'm specifically asking what we thought we were getting out of the program for a reason. Like, when I talk about issue with the police, I dont blame only specific police officers. There is a culture that make excessive force a norm and a lot of these officers think its okay to use it. Likewise, I'm trying to understand this program specifically. Is it targeting individuals specifically, allowing the institution to be as bad as it always was. Or is it helping everyone take responsibility. I dont know enough about the program Trump dumped. And I'm not automatically going to assume its bad because 'all diversity training is bad', like you
 

Dreiko

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I think if individual companies want to do this sort of thing that's fine but the federal government is supposed to represent everyone and that includes people who don't care for such training so you shouldn't be forcing them to support something they disagree with on the grounds that it's totalitarian and uses critical race theory which they disagree with.

Personally, I would enjoy such training because I like being exposed to things I see as dumb and I disagree with, I get a kick out of seeing people say dumb things. Though I do agree that spending all this money to entertain workers is probably not wise.
 
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lil devils x

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I think if individual companies want to do this sort of thing that's fine but the federal government is supposed to represent everyone and that includes people who don't care for such training so you shouldn't be forcing them to support something they disagree with on the grounds that it's totalitarian and uses critical race theory which they disagree with.

Personally, I would enjoy such training because I like being exposed to things I see as dumb and I disagree with, I get a kick out of seeing people say dumb things. Though I do agree that spending all this money to entertain workers is probably not wise.
If the federal government is supposed to represent EVERYONE ,as you suggest, that means they are also representing minorities and should make sure they are treating EVERYONE equally. Like when it was documented that physicians were not prescribing the same medications and amounts to blacks as they were to others with the same conditions due to unconscious bias impacting their ability to properly assess that patients needs. The same thing happens with promotions WITHIN GOVERNMENT AGENCIES as well as private business when they cannot properly assess a potential hire, or candidates for promotions and raises as they are not properly assessing their skills.. It happens in our judicial system, and law enforcement with their ability to assess a threat or gauge remorse or mental capacity. All of these areas are impacted in many different ways. I don't think a 2 hour blow off joke course is what is needed however, instead they should intertwine this with every single thing they do at every level of training instead so there can be no mistake about overlooking training that allowed for someone to miss something important. They need to do this as well as track and gauge effectiveness of implementation so they can identify problems as they arise and address them and remove those who repeatedly refuse to address their own issues being impacted by unconscious bias.
 

Dreiko

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If the federal government is supposed to represent EVERYONE ,as you suggest, that means they are also representing minorities and should make sure they are treating EVERYONE equally. Like when it was documented that physicians were not prescribing the same medications and amounts to blacks as they were to others with the same conditions due to unconscious bias impacting their ability to properly assess that patients needs. The same thing happens with promotions WITHIN GOVERNMENT AGENCIES as well as private business when they cannot properly assess a potential hire, or candidates for promotions and raises as they are not properly assessing their skills.. It happens in our judicial system, and law enforcement with their ability to assess a threat or gauge remorse or mental capacity. All of these areas are impacted in many different ways. I don't think a 2 hour blow off joke course is what is needed however, instead they should intertwine this with every single thing they do at every level of training instead so there can be no mistake about overlooking training that allowed for someone to miss something important.
Yeah so I am definitely against the government teaching its workers to underserve or mistreat black people too. For sure.


Basically, the government has to be neutral. Just because society leans one way it doesn't change what neutrality is simply because by being neutral the scales tilt a certain way. This is the big thing with equity vs equality. Equity means your government is totalitarian and puts its hand on the scales to make things fair. That's not its job. It's also incapable of achieving this end, which in turn will make it turn more authoritarian in order to oppress people just the right amount to have them produce the result it seeks.

It's basically using the wrong tool for the job to task government to solve racism. The right tool is empathy and kindness being promoted societally and culturally.
 
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tstorm823

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No, a fallacy is a piece of faulty reasoning, or an incorrect conclusion that derives from faulty reasoning. It most classically relates to formal logical argument, where it represents an invalid or flawed piece of reasoning.
Critical theory is entirely faulty reasoning. Is that better phrasing for you?