Russia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia sign peace deal, Armenians unhappy

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Iron

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The wording here is weird, does it "cede" the land that was not theirs but which they lived on? Does that count as "ceding" really? Or did they take over actual Armenian land on top of the land they were fighting over which was theirs already but just inhabited by ethnic Armenians?

Cause like...this is what people wish to do with Israel , right? Give the land back to the palestinian people who lived there before the west (in this case the Soviet union under Stalin) gave the recent (but with a claim of historic ownership) residents?



But yeah I grew up with a ton of anti-Turkish propaganda so I will not pretend to be objective here. To my eyes they will always be like white people are to the slavebreeds until they give back Constantinopole and get the hell out of Cyprus lol.
They will cede land that connects the Azeri enclave(Nakhchivan) to Baku. You're correct that officially this is all Azeri territory, and this is classified as an insurrection or terrorism.
This is a ceasefire, not a peace-deal. Fighting can resume in the future - especially if the government in Armenia is compromised by nationalists.
 

09philj

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Pakistan has zero meaningful influence whatsoever except over Afghanistan, which is just about the world's worst middle of nowhere. Afghanistan is such that it's virtually a both no-go area for anyone (including, tragically, many Afghans themselves), and has little or nothing worth occupying. It's virtually an impassable terrain, like Switzerland in your average WW2 board/computer game.
Pakistan's been very active in funding terrorist organisations in the hope that they'll destabilise enemy states, but what they've actually achieved is making sure nobody likes them very much, but especially not Iran or India. The closest thing Pakistan has to an ally is China, but only because China can use Pakistan as a stick to beat it's continental rival India with, and relations have been strained by Pakistan's opposition to China's oppression of muslims. There are currently a lot of lucrative alliances to be made in Asia, and China, India, Russia, and Turkey are all trying to make sure they get the biggest slice of the pie. Turkey is presently pursuing a policy of condemning mistreatment of muslims in countries where they are a minority in order to try to make itself more prominent in the Islamic world, which is likely to go largely unchallenged as the Saudis are increasingly bogged down in Africa and Iran only holds sway over the world's Twelver Shia population, which is highly concentrated in it's own borders. This attitude could help make Turkey a more attractive trading partner for the Stans and the rest of central Asia compared to China and India which are not currently treating their muslim populations very well. They're also increasingly involved in the Middle East, where they offer a comparatively stable and safe choice of ally in a region dominated by Saudi Arabia/Iran tensions. China, for it's part, is considering a variety of highly ambitious plans to build infrastructure connecting Asia and Europe, and has kicked around the idea of building a canal from the Mediterranean to the Danube just to circumvent Turkey. Meanwhile the Russians are inserting themselves wherever they can, from propping up Syria and Iran to fighting a proxy war with the Turks by arming opposing militias in Libya. The conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan is another that could be considered a proxy one between Russia and Turkey, although in this case it appears the Russians are unwilling to commit significant resources to prevent gains by Turkey's allies, or visibly go against the alliance with Turkey that they ostensibly have even though they're both trying to get one over each other at every turn.
 
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Adam Jensen

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Armenia basically has nothing. A small population, few resources, and it's surrounded by relatively hostile nations. It's only substantial potential ally is Russia, and Russia's going to be a lot more interested in maintaining influence over the whole area, which isn't be achieved by backing the least popular kid on the block. It seems to be a relatively well run country, but that's not enough to make up for its truly awful geopolitical position.
They're also radicalized as fuck. I've been to Armenia. If you thought that Serbs are crazy about Kosovo (assuming you know anything about that little conflict), you have no idea how insane Armenians are about Nagorno-Karabakh. Which is silly because it truly is not their territory. Armenians live there, sure. But that doesn't mean jack shit. And yet, Armenians are still teaching their children to hate Azerbaijan and to believe in the imminent victory that will one day come. And every time a conflict ensues, they are convinced that the time for victory has come. They also have no concept of how weak and pathetic their military forces are compared to Azerbaijan.
 

Iron

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They're also radicalized as fuck. I've been to Armenia. If you thought that Serbs are crazy about Kosovo (assuming you know anything about that little conflict), you have no idea how insane Armenians are about Nagorno-Karabakh. Which is silly because it truly is not their territory. Armenians live there, sure. But that doesn't mean jack shit. And yet, Armenians are still teaching their children to hate Azerbaijan and to believe in the imminent victory that will one day come. And every time a conflict ensues, they are convinced that the time for victory has come. They also have no concept of how weak and pathetic their military forces are compared to Azerbaijan.
Did you go to Yerevan or other places as well?
The territory was captured by Armenians and cleansed by them some 30 years ago. I'd imagine that they would be more concerned with Ararat mountain.
 

Adam Jensen

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Did you go to Yerevan or other places as well?
The territory was captured by Armenians and cleansed by them some 30 years ago. I'd imagine that they would be more concerned with Ararat mountain.
Just Yerevan. I was there on business two years ago and only for a week so I didn't get much time for sightseeing as I had hoped. But I talked to my interpreter about the country.
 

Iron

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Just Yerevan. I was there on business two years ago and only for a week so I didn't get much time for sightseeing as I had hoped. But I talked to my interpreter about the country.
My only exposure is this video:
Thanks for sharing.
 

Revnak

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But Turkey is a check on Iran, without Turkey we would only have Israel, and incompetent Saudis to check them.
Booooooooooo! Booooooooooooooooo!

Neo-realist politics will be the death of us all.
 

Iron

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Cenk Uygur hasn't replied to any of his sexts.
Because they’re a revaunchist nationalist dictatorship. Turkey fucking sucks.
Come on Revnak, you know sending out unsolicited dick pics is a dick move. Cenk is already involved with that Armenian girl.

How is Turkey revaunchist if it hadn't lost any territory? What is it trying to reclaim?
 

Agema

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But the Ottoman Empire isn't Turkey.
No. But that doesn't mean countries and their leaders don't dream of reasserting the glory days.

To be fair, I'm sure Turkey isn't planning on physically occupying all the territory of the old Ottoman Empire, but I'm sure it is looking at all the small states in the Caucasus and northern ME Arab world and deciding that as the biggest kid in the area, that should be its playground. If we imagine a three-way tussle over the ME between SA, Turkey and Iran, Turkey can imagine itself being politically dominant over the Caucasus, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. Once the oil economy starts to run dry, SA will probably falter, anyway. Turkey is also of course pressing at the Mediterranean, particularly its client state in Cyprus but also access to the waters around its coast, as nearly all the islands are Greek. I don't imagine it will get that far, because it's up against the EU there and the EU can squash Turkey easily if it pushes too hard.

Let's face it, Turkey's intervention in Syria is a definitive attempt to compel Syria towards Turkey's sphere of influence, as Syria is currently allied to Russia and Iran. If it succeedes, that's a whole flank secured.
 

Iron

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No. But that doesn't mean countries and their leaders don't dream of reasserting the glory days.

To be fair, I'm sure Turkey isn't planning on physically occupying all the territory of the old Ottoman Empire, but I'm sure it is looking at all the small states in the Caucasus and northern ME Arab world and deciding that as the biggest kid in the area, that should be its playground. If we imagine a three-way tussle over the ME between SA, Turkey and Iran, Turkey can imagine itself being politically dominant over the Caucasus, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. Once the oil economy starts to run dry, SA will probably falter, anyway. Turkey is also of course pressing at the Mediterranean, particularly its client state in Cyprus but also access to the waters around its coast, as nearly all the islands are Greek. I don't imagine it will get that far, because it's up against the EU there and the EU can squash Turkey easily if it pushes too hard.

Let's face it, Turkey's intervention in Syria is a definitive attempt to compel Syria towards Turkey's sphere of influence, as Syria is currently allied to Russia and Iran. If it succeedes, that's a whole flank secured.
Your analysis is good! but it's a little simplified. The actions in the Med are attempts to block development from its rivals and also garner support at home (google Turkey Black Sea gas, there is an announcement of gas findings in the black sea near the coast of Turkey but it's unverified - it's actually bullshit). Only way for Turkey to move forward is a policy of appeasement from the EU (which is currently what is happening). I am sadly unconvinced the EU would push back against Turkey in any meaningful way, HOWEVER the current events may be an upset in the policy of the EU towards Turkey (France boycotting Turkey, etc.). So there is still hope!
 
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stroopwafel

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They're also radicalized as fuck. I've been to Armenia. If you thought that Serbs are crazy about Kosovo (assuming you know anything about that little conflict), you have no idea how insane Armenians are about Nagorno-Karabakh. Which is silly because it truly is not their territory. Armenians live there, sure. But that doesn't mean jack shit. And yet, Armenians are still teaching their children to hate Azerbaijan and to believe in the imminent victory that will one day come. And every time a conflict ensues, they are convinced that the time for victory has come. They also have no concept of how weak and pathetic their military forces are compared to Azerbaijan.
Yeah, but I think that's in no small part because of the trauma of the Turkish genocide on the Armenians in 1915.
 

stroopwafel

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No. But that doesn't mean countries and their leaders don't dream of reasserting the glory days.

To be fair, I'm sure Turkey isn't planning on physically occupying all the territory of the old Ottoman Empire, but I'm sure it is looking at all the small states in the Caucasus and northern ME Arab world and deciding that as the biggest kid in the area, that should be its playground. If we imagine a three-way tussle over the ME between SA, Turkey and Iran, Turkey can imagine itself being politically dominant over the Caucasus, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. Once the oil economy starts to run dry, SA will probably falter, anyway. Turkey is also of course pressing at the Mediterranean, particularly its client state in Cyprus but also access to the waters around its coast, as nearly all the islands are Greek. I don't imagine it will get that far, because it's up against the EU there and the EU can squash Turkey easily if it pushes too hard.

Let's face it, Turkey's intervention in Syria is a definitive attempt to compel Syria towards Turkey's sphere of influence, as Syria is currently allied to Russia and Iran. If it succeedes, that's a whole flank secured.
Fair point but I don't think the E.U. will push too hard simply because Turkey is a Nato country and too important in managing the refugee crisis. Erdogan ofcourse knows this. Turkey's relationship with Russia is also curious to say the least. Turkey deliberately shot down a Russian jet in Syria which caused a lot of tension in their relationship but Russia let it slide. Turkey then continued to purchase their missile defense system from Russia in favor of U.S., so it alienated that relationship as well. Again, the E.U. just kind of stood and watched. It's unlikely it's going to act decisively now over the exploration rights of some gas fields away from the Greek coast.
 

Agema

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Fair point but I don't think the E.U. will push too hard simply because Turkey is a Nato country and too important in managing the refugee crisis. Erdogan ofcourse knows this. Turkey's relationship with Russia is also curious to say the least. Turkey deliberately shot down a Russian jet in Syria which caused a lot of tension in their relationship but Russia let it slide. Turkey then continued to purchase their missile defense system from Russia in favor of U.S., so it alienated that relationship as well. Again, the E.U. just kind of stood and watched. It's unlikely it's going to act decisively now over the exploration rights of some gas fields away from the Greek coast.
I don't think the EU will push Turkey over the Caucasus, but it surely will stand up for Greece and the Republic of Cyprus, where Turkish expansionism in the Mediterranean would have to go through. At best, the EU might agree to some limited joint sharing around Greek islands very close to its coast like Kastellorizo.

Of course, some of the problem might fade just if Erdogan eventually goes, and someone can take over who doesn't use crude nationalism to keep their popularity afloat.