Canada adds Proud Boys to the terrorist group list

[SilentPony]

Basically the theory is that because America can't make it illegal to belong to a group, First Amendment and all that, Canada does it for us. If an alley deems them Terrorists, well now the CIA can spy on them for Canadian security and share what they know. And then Canada can turn around and share what the CIA just told them with the FBI. So Canada is acting as a middle man between the CIA and FBI to make it legal to spy on the Proud Boys.
And as much as I don't like that run around, fuck the Proud Boys.

 

[Cheetodust]

the purpose of terrorism is to terrorize and make as many civilian casualties as possible to alter people's behavior.

That's really not true. Someone already mentioned them, but the IRA often took steps to limit civilian casualties from their attacks.

Just posting that again because stroop seems to have missed the point. See he claimed that terrorists aimed to maximize civilian casualties and that is demonstratively bollocks.
Then he went and moved the goal posts.

 

[Agema]

Basically the theory is that because America can't make it illegal to belong to a group, First Amendment and all that, Canada does it for us. If an alley deems them Terrorists, well now the CIA can spy on them for Canadian security and share what they know. And then Canada can turn around and share what the CIA just told them with the FBI. So Canada is acting as a middle man between the CIA and FBI to make it legal to spy on the Proud Boys.
And as much as I don't like that run around, fuck the Proud Boys.

I'm pretty sure the US and UK intelligence services used to (and maybe still do?) have an agreement on this. As it's illegal for some US agencies to spy on their own citizens, they would sometimes ask MI6 to do it and pass the intel on.

A bit like the "No, we don't torture people" claim: they hand them over to Morocco or Pakistan or something and let their intelligence services torture the suspects whilst they sit in and listen.

 

[Generals]

Read the OP. Officially labeling the group as a terrorist organization doesn't make them more illegal; it makes illegal to help them.

That wasn't my point. It seems that people here are truly emotionally invested in the fact they should be classified as terrorists despite the fact they have little in common with "terrorist organisations". Labeling them as such c(w)ould justify labeling many organisations as terrorists (BLM organizing protests which turn out violent? Clearly that's terrorism, there is violence used for a social/political goal!). So I was trying to point out you don't need to consider them as terrorists to be able to dislike them or put members of that organisation in prison when they commit crimes. Not every scummy group with an ideology you dislike which has been involved in a violent protest/riot is de facto a terrorist organisation ...

 

[bluegate]

Good on Canada.

 

[CaitSeith]

That wasn't my point. It seems that people here are truly emotionally invested in the fact they should be classified as terrorists despite the fact they have little in common with "terrorist organisations". Labeling them as such c(w)ould justify labeling many organisations as terrorists (BLM organizing protests which turn out violent? Clearly that's terrorism, there is violence used for a social/political goal!). So I was trying to point out you don't need to consider them as terrorists to be able to dislike them or put members of that organisation in prison when they commit crimes. Not every scummy group with an ideology you dislike which has been involved in a violent protest/riot is de facto a terrorist organisation ...

After so many people mislabeled BLM and antifa as terrorist organizations for so long time, claiming you're worried about mislabeling is actually insulting. Heck! The only way such label could not be misused is if it didn't ever existed for anyone in the first place. But it does. Deal with it! (like the rest of us have already done)

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

To be clearer;

DEFINITIONS
This analysis focuses on terrorism: the deliberate use—or threat—of violence by non-state actors in order to achieve political goals and create a broad psychological impact.4 Violence—and the threat of violence—are important components of terrorism.

Spoiler: Includes examples of hostile proud boys talk, so put in spoiler for warning

McInnes plays a duplicitous rhetorical game: claiming to reject white nationalism while espousing a laundered version of popular white nationalist tropes. He has ties to the racist right and has contributed to such hate sites as VDare.com and American Renaissance, which publish the work of white supremacists and so-called race realists. McInnes has himself said it is fair to call him Islamophobic. He announced the founding of the Proud Boys in the far-right Taki’s Magazine.

The Proud Boys stage frequent rallies around the country. Many have descended into violent street riots where members openly brawl with counterprotesters. Indeed, as early as summer 2018, a document circulated by Washington state law enforcement described the group’s involvement in a series of violent incidents in Oregon and Washington, as well as its involvement in Unite the Right. This report came to light a mere two months before 10 members were charged with assault after an attack on antifascist activists in New York City in October 2018.

Through 2019 and 2020, the Proud Boys were one of a handful of far-right groups instrumental in instigating violence and civil unrest in the Pacific Northwest. Likewise, a series of leaked chats showed Proud Boys and extremists associated with other far-right groups discussing how and when to use violence against leftist activists while planning rallies in the northeast in early-to-mid 2019.
In Their Own Words
“All the heroes of BLM and Antifa are degenerate criminal lowlifes or pedophile rapists. I don’t lose any sleep when they are justly removed from society.” – A Telegram channel associated with the Proud Boys, Sept. 22, 2020

“The true minority in this world ARE whites. White children are less than 3% of the worlds [sic] population. I think since white majority countries are on a pathway to extinction we should correctly refer to non whites by their true names. Worldwide majority.” – A Telegram channel associated with the Proud Boys, Sept. 7, 2020

“All I want to do is smash commies too. Actually I’m lying I’m way past just hitting them. When the time comes I will stop at nothing to fully eradicate them all.” – Anthony Mastrostefano, in a private chat associated with the Proud Boys, spring 2019

“The time is now. We’re gonna have to get some swollen fists. We’re gonna have to get some swollen fists. We’re gonna have to fight, alright?” – Gabe Silva, in a Facebook video, June 2018

 

[Houseman]

After so many people mislabeled BLM and antifa as terrorist organizations for so long time, claiming you're worried about mislabeling is actually insulting. Heck! The only way such label could not be misused is if it didn't ever existed for anyone in the first place. But it does. Deal with it! (like the rest of us have already done)

According to the definition of "terrorist organization", they were never mislabeled as terrorist organizations. They were accurately labeled as terrorist organizations.

You can't pick and choose. Either the definition accurately describes reality, and all of them are terrorist organizations, or the definition needs updating and none of them are.

 

[BrawlMan]

After so many people mislabeled BLM and antifa as terrorist organizations for so long time, claiming you're worried about mislabeling is actually insulting. Heck! The only way such label could not be misused is if it didn't ever existed for anyone in the first place. But it does. Deal with it! (like the rest of us have already done)

Thank you @CaithSeith, you are well mannered, informed, and don't act like an ignoramus. You have my high respect, unlike certain others.

Generals is now my list of The Users That Don't Know Shit!, and is most likely going to be on the ignore list too.

 

[ObsidianJones]

I am fairly certain that you can hear that kind of verbal crap in many angry protests which have escalated to riots.
I think it's important not to consider every organisation which is part of (or planned) an angry protest which turns sour to be a terrorist organization. I'd say they are anti-democratic racist scumbags. But unless these types of events start to repeat themselves or we can find evidence their goal is to instil fear into the general population I don't see why we should consider them "terrorists".

To state that, you have to ignore that the "angry protest which turned sour" was not a plotted out event. Because there wasn't an protest plotted out by them, but an insurrection. And you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to deny that.

As the video showed, Proud Boys met up at the capitol prior to when Trump suggested the protesters should march to the Capitol.

As this article states, weeks prior did they campaign and fund raise for materials that are unbecoming a simple protest.

The indictment alleges the two conspired to block Congress' certification of the electoral votes on January 6. Prosecutors say they planned and fundraised for the effort, then came to Washington, DC, and stormed past police and into the Capitol building as part of the violent crowd, according to a copy of the indictment.
Wednesday's indictment came shortly after the Justice Department made clear it had taken more investigative steps against Proud Boys affiliates related to the insurrection. The Proud Boys are a far-right group known for their clashes with Antifa and general support of former President Donald Trump, who even mentioned them in a presidential debate, telling them to "stand back and stand by."

Also on Wednesday, the so-called Sergeant at arms of the Proud Boys in Seattle, Ethan Nordean, aka "Rufio Panman," was arrested, then appeared in federal court for his role in the riot. Federal prosecutors wrote they believed Nordean asked on social media for help to buy "protective gear" and "communications equipment," with the intention of organizing people before the January 6 siege, his charging document said. He is charged with three counts related to entering the Capitol, and the allegations he faces name several other Proud Boys affiliates among the crowd.

To say this 'went sour' is to look at everything they planned in the openness of Social Media and say "January 6th went sour because everything they fund raised, planned and coordinated actually happened."

Put it this way. Think of a Football star in high school. He got a date with the new girl, and he texts on his twitter and with his friends about how much he wants her, how he's going to have her at that date, no matter what she says. And he's asking for cash for roofies and a hotel room to 'get lucky'. And then the date comes, and he drugs her, and he has his way with her.

... He doesn't get to claim the date went sour when he planned it out, fund raised, hatched a plan, and went through with it. You don't get to frame it as a 'simple date' when you planned to force yourself upon her no matter what.

People can have a field day with saying BLM protests and riots. Fine, go ahead. I know there were riots at the BLM marches that weren't planned by BLM members. But the issue, as always, goes with actual definitions. BLM protests and the people who rioted during that time went against the Police. Which are funded and empowered by the state. The Proud Boys and the other people who took part of the break-in and taking over of the capitol went against the federal government.

That's Treason, folks.

Elements of Treason
The elements of treason are the same under state and federal law:

• the defendant owes allegiance to the government, and
• the defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either
  • levying war against the government, or
  • giving aid or comfort to the government’s enemies.

Because treason must be intentional, someone who unintentionally aids the enemy or is forced to by duress or coercion isn’t guilty of treason. (See The Defense of Duress.) There can be no accomplice liability for treason; every participant is considered a principal.

Two Types of Treason
There are two ways to commit treason: levying war against the government or providing aid or comfort to the enemy.

Levying War
Levying war isn’t limited to formally declaring war. It includes any forcible opposition to the execution of a public law. Such “forcible opposition” ordinarily requires actual use of force by multiple people with the common purpose of preventing some law from being enforced. Weapons aren’t always required; sheer numbers can be enough.

Merely conspiring to overthrow the government isn’t levying war—there must be an actual assemblage of people who are ready and intend to use force. (But see “Related Crimes,” below.) So, no person acting alone can be guilty of levying war.

But here's the real reason why it's fine that Canada designated the Proud Boys a terrorist organization. Because America would do the same, but can not simply due to trying to prevent infringements on free speech. Our Congressional Think Tank states as much.

The federal definition of domestic terrorism describes domestic terrorists as Americans who commit ideologically driven crimes in the United States but lack foreign direction or influence. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) generally relies on two sources to define domestic terrorism. First, the Code of Federal Regulations characterizes “terrorism” as including “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.” Second, 18 U.S.C. §2331(5) more narrowly defines “domestic terrorism.” This definition comes from Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (P.L. 107-56). According to 18 U.S.C. §2331(5), domestic terrorism occurs primarily within U.S. territorial jurisdiction, and involves

(A) acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping…

The participants’ actions seem to fit both definitions. Video evidence and media reports portray participants committing acts dangerous to human life and those actions appeared to be intended both to influence the policy of the U.S. government by intimidation and affect its conduct through possible assassination and/or kidnapping

While the FBI has confirmed in public hearings that extremists are subjects of ongoing domestic terrorism investigations, it declines to designate any organization a “domestic terrorist organization.” Doing so may infringe on First Amendment-protected free speech—belonging to an ideological group in and of itself is not a crime in the United States. In July 2019 congressional testimony, Director Wray said the FBI does not investigate ideology; it investigates violence.

While individuals involved in the attack on the Capitol may belong to extremist groups such the Proud Boys and Boogaloo Bois or adhere to their ideology, the federal government declines to designate these groups as domestic terrorist groups and instead focuses on the violent criminal acts of individuals, whether members of these groups or not.

So if the Proud Boys were in a foreign nation and did this, they would be deemed terrorist by America itself.

And lastly, and this isn't directed to you Generals, but just because some people are afraid of Black People unifying and speaking against the oppression that most people are complicit by allowing it to happen doesn't make it terrorism. It makes it them speaking out. Especially when they aren't taking over capitols and such.

 

[Trunkage]

So if the Proud Boys were in a foreign nation and did this, they would be deemed terrorist by America itself.

Just a reminder that this is Canada, so the Proud Boys ARE from a foreign nation

 

[BrawlMan]

To state that, you have to ignore that the "angry protest which turned sour" was not a plotted out event. Because there wasn't an protest plotted out by them, but an insurrection. And you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to deny that.

As the video showed, Proud Boys met up at the capitol prior to when Trump suggested the protesters should march to the Capitol.

As this article states, weeks prior did they campaign and fund raise for materials that are unbecoming a simple protest.



To say this 'went sour' is to look at everything they planned in the openness of Social Media and say "January 6th went sour because everything they fund raised, planned and coordinated actually happened."

Put it this way. Think of a Football star in high school. He got a date with the new girl, and he texts on his twitter and with his friends about how much he wants her, how he's going to have her at that date, no matter what she says. And he's asking for cash for roofies and a hotel room to 'get lucky'. And then the date comes, and he drugs her, and he has his way with her.

... He doesn't get to claim the date went sour when he planned it out, fund raised, hatched a plan, and went through with it. You don't get to frame it as a 'simple date' when you planned to force yourself upon her no matter what.

People can have a field day with saying BLM protests and riots. Fine, go ahead. I know there were riots at the BLM marches that weren't planned by BLM members. But the issue, as always, goes with actual definitions. BLM protests and the people who rioted during that time went against the Police. Which are funded and empowered by the state. The Proud Boys and the other people who took part of the break-in and taking over of the capitol went against the federal government.

That's Treason, folks.



But here's the real reason why it's fine that Canada designated the Proud Boys a terrorist organization. Because America would do the same, but can not simply due to trying to prevent infringements on free speech. Our Congressional Think Tank states as much.





So if the Proud Boys were in a foreign nation and did this, they would be deemed terrorist by America itself.

And lastly, and this isn't directed to you Generals, but just because some people are afraid of Black People unifying and speaking against the oppression that most people are complicit by allowing it to happen doesn't make it terrorism. It makes it them speaking out. Especially when they aren't taking over capitols and such.

Don't waste your breath on Generals; it's pretty clear he wants to live in his own world of delusional, fictional, fantasy. His own self serving "truth".

 

[ObsidianJones]

Just a reminder that this is Canada, so the Proud Boys ARE from a foreign nation

Oh, I know. I said that in the post

But here's the real reason why it's fine that Canada designated the Proud Boys a terrorist organization. Because America would do the same, but can not simply due to trying to prevent infringements on free speech. Our Congressional Think Tank states as much.

 

[Trunkage]

Oh, I know. I said that in the post

This was not an attack on you, it was meant to support your point. Sorry

 

[Houseman]

To state that, you have to ignore that the "angry protest which turned sour" was not a plotted out event. Because there wasn't an protest plotted out by them, but an insurrection. And you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to deny that.

You have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to call it an insurrection when you just acknowledged that they weren't even armed.
When plotting an insurrection, "bring guns" is usually #1 on the list. Kinda hard to overthrow a government without weapons.

 

[Trunkage]

Does everyone remember in 2018 when Texas schools put into their contracts that if they supported Palestine in any way, you could be fired? I wonder if Trump and his Free Speech crusade did anything about that?

If supporting Palestinians can be seen as such an evil thing that gets you canceled, so can being a Proud Boys

 

[ObsidianJones]

This was not an attack on you, it was meant to support your point. Sorry

Oh, no attack felt. I thought a miscommunication. We, as ever, are Down to Clown about Town.

 

[Kae]

But they can't be terrorists!

They're suburban white Americans, everyone knows you need to be brown or like from eastern Europe or at least Irish to be a terrorist.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Other than vandalizing the capitol what other acts of 'terrorism' have they ever committed then?

In order to join the proud boys you have to go through an initiation process. A lot of it is goofy stuff like reciting the names of breakfast cereals while getting beaten up and committing to never masturbating, but one of the initiation points is that you need to commit an act of violence "for the cause".

Proud boys are only proud boys because they have committed at least one act of political violence. That is the entire nature and ideology of the group.

 

[Trunkage]

Hey, slightly unrelated but apparently Neera Tanden got banned for Twitter (Think Trump but worse and working for Hillary.) I don’t know if that includes all her cancelling posse as well, but at least she can’t lead from the front anymore