Misguided good intentions

[Agema]

So, I read about this recently.

Amanda Gorman's Dutch translator stands down after uproar that Black writer wasn't chosen

Dutch writer Marieke Lucas Rijneveld, who won the International Booker Prize in 2020, has withdrawn from a project to translate Black American poet Amanda Gorman's work following a backlash against the commission.

edition.cnn.com

The tl;dr is that the work of black US poet Andrea Gorman was to be translated into Dutch by non-binary white writer Marieke Lucas Rijneveld. Some journalists stepped in to object about not picking a black writer to translate; cue uproar. Rijneveld resigned the commission, not wanting to cause upset.

Scoot down the story and say that Rijneveld, although proposed by the publisher Meulenhoff as translator, was approved by Gorman. At what point is it appropriate to shout down a black woman's own choice of translator in the name of black representation?

 

[Seanchaidh]

At what point is it appropriate to shout down a black woman's own choice of translator in the name of black representation?

it isn't, generally speaking.

 

[Worgen]

This is stupid.

 

[SilentPony]

Someone isn't allowed to do something because they have the wrong skin color...I feel like there is a word for that.

 

[McElroy]

The intentions don't seem misguided or good.

 

[BrawlMan]

There's overreaction and then there is shit that goes way beyond. The outrage assholes needs to stop jumping down others throats and give them a chance stop going for "easy", innocent, or defenseless targets. You wanna fight racism and bigotry? Stop being a fucking keyboard warrior and get off your ass and your fucking Twitter account! I am so sick of this shit! You're part of the fucking problem, you pricks!

 

[Wintermute]

Welp, looks like we solved racism. Good job, everyone.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Oh, you guys actually care about this now? Whatever. This is the world that you championed for, not sure why all of you are so shocked about it now.

 

[SilentPony]

Oh, you guys actually care about this now? Whatever. This is the world that you championed for, not sure why all of you are so shocked about it now.

I mean I don't recall ever saying that translators need to be a certain gender or race, I was happy with them just being fluent in the languages being used.
Except for that one sign-language translator from Africa I think it was who didn't no any sign-language and just did random gestures and dances, at like official events and everything. That guy is hysterical. But they should have a real translator beside him.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I mean I don't recall ever saying that translators need to be a certain gender or race, I was happy with them just being fluent in the languages being used.
Except for that one sign-language translator from Africa I think it was who didn't no any sign-language and just did random gestures and dances, at like official events and everything. That guy is hysterical. But they should have a real translator beside him.

This kind of shit has been happening for at least 8 years now. This story is nothing new, every other time a similar example of this kind of thing came up, many people here had nothing to say or were actively rooting for it to happen. Scumbag journalists (I know, I know, a tautology) working their machine to stoke up hate against something for their own gains at the expense of other people is old hat now. Why do you guys care now? Because the person in the crossfire here was non-binary? So as long as someone falls under a specific check-mark then, and only then, are they worthy of your sympathy?

 

[Casual Shinji]

I mean, I can understand the intention, but the very fact that it's being translated from American to Dutch means you're going to change the "experience" and "identity" regardless of whether the translator is black or not. A different language isn't just different words. And the spirit of translation is to change something to make it so others can connect with it. I don't know, I'm not familiar with the poem or it's intended message. The fact that it was approved by the original author says enough though. It should probably end there.

 

[dreng3]

This seem fairly stupid. The ideal translation won't have the fingerprint of the translator, the identity of the translator won't matter because the translator is only conveying something, no different from a radiowave.

Ideally you'll want the best translator available for the relevant language, and, spoilers, the demographic makeup of the Netherlands skew heavily white so most translators are going to be white.

 

[Asita]

This kind of shit has been happening for at least 8 years now. This story is nothing new, every other time a similar example of this kind of thing came up, many people here had nothing to say or were actively rooting for it to happen. Scumbag journalists (I know, I know, a tautology) working their machine to stoke up hate against something for their own gains at the expense of other people is old hat now. Why do you guys care now? Because the person in the crossfire here was non-binary? So as long as someone falls under a specific check-mark then, and only then, are they worthy of your sympathy?

Specter? Perhaps instead of trying to tell everyone what they think and how they're obviously hypocrites because they didn't care about some non-disclosed event (that you assure them is totally exactly the same thing), you should actually honestly ask how this event is different from whatever it is that you think was an equivalent event that everyone here didn't care about. Because to speak on my own behalf: I honestly have no idea what you could be referring to.

 

[Hawki]

Looks at thread...

Okay, I don't recall anyone on these forums making the claims Specter is referring to, but the incident above isn't new, or at least, the philosophy behind it isn't. Over the last 5-6 years, there's been this idea emerging about how you shouldn't write outside your 'group,' or voice outside your 'group.' It's part of why American Dirt became so controversial. It's why Lionel Shriver and Yasmin Abdel-Magied became at odds. It's why, reportedly, there was a case where the publishers of the No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency would refuse to publish the series day because McCall Smith is white, while his protagonists are African women. It's part of why Claire Coleman declared that non-indigenous writers writing indigenous characters/stories was "cultural genocide." It's why there was the whole question of voice actors voicing characters of different ethnicity of their own (see Harry Shearer stepping down from Apu, or Dr. Hibbert getting a new VA for instance). It's why The Mary Sue ran an article stating that with the creation of Avatar Studios, its first priority was to hire Asian-Americans to work on the IP.

How you stand on these ideas is up to you, but Specter's right in as much that it isn't a new idea, and while I've upvoted, I'm frankly surprised it was newsworthy enough these days to even be mentioned.

 

[Agema]

This kind of shit has been happening for at least 8 years now.

I think you're mistaking two different situations.

Let's imagine that the publisher, Meulenhoff, simply sent the translation to Rijneveld without asking Gorman. At this point the objection might have some weight, because a black voice is being handed to a white person (by a presumably white editor / publisher). In that situation, the black author does not have an active voice in the process, and we could question their race and cultural context being diminished by white decision-makers.

However, it is a different matter if the black author has specifically approved the translator, because at that point the stance of the author is clear that she thinks the translator is suitable, and gainsaying it then becomes suppressing her opinion and right to control her own creation.

 

[Hawki]

I think you're mistaking two different situations.

Let's imagine that the publisher, Meulenhoff, simply sent the translation to Rijneveld without asking Gorman. At this point the objection might have some weight, because a black voice is being handed to a white person (by a presumably white editor / publisher). In that situation, the black author does not have an active voice in the process, and we could question their race and cultural context being diminished by white decision-makers.

However, it is a different matter if the black author has specifically approved the translator, because at that point the stance of the author is clear that she thinks the translator is suitable, and gainsaying it then becomes suppressing her opinion and right to control her own creation.

This argument is based on the idea that there's such thing as a "black voice" or "white voice" in the first place.

Like, Amanda Gorman is African-American. Even if the poem is handled by someone of African heritage in the Netherlands, are you really arguing that the culture of Afro-Europeans is the same as Afro-Americans? Or, if things were being flipped, is the culture of the Netherlands the same as that of Euro-Americans? No doubt you could find some common threads between those respective groups in both cases, but enough to say that they have the same 'voice' in a cultural context? I'd argue no.

I don't doubt there'd be something lost in translation, because there usually is, but that's a question of language more than culture, and culture doesn't equal skin colour.

 

[dreng3]

At this point the objection might have some weight, because a black voice is being handed to a white person (by a presumably white editor / publisher). In that situation, the black author does not have an active voice in the process, and we could question their race and cultural context being diminished by white decision-makers.

I have to disagree on this, ultimately a translator isn't supposed to be a voice, it doesn't matter whether the translator is of any colour or gender, because the translator shouldn't be felt or heard.

The perfect translation, and by extension the perfect translator, doesn't interfere with the work or inject anything into the work.

 

[Gergar12]

These journalists are trying to either compete for clicks or they generally believe in affirmative action to the extreme.

Funny I bet if I asked these journalists about medicare 4 all, 15 dollar minimum wage, free college, or the Green New Deal which would systemically help more people, and help more people overall. I bet you they would scoff at me, and call me a socialist.

It's so fake. Sure give one person of color a job, but help millions billions of them, that' socialist.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

This is getting stupid.

 

[Silvanus]

I have to disagree on this, ultimately a translator isn't supposed to be a voice, it doesn't matter whether the translator is of any colour or gender, because the translator shouldn't be felt or heard.

The perfect translation, and by extension the perfect translator, doesn't interfere with the work or inject anything into the work.

Hrmmm, perhaps ideally, but a sentence in one language will not always have an exact equivalent in another language. A word or phrase may have associations in one language that are quite unique, and can't just be transposed onto that word's literal equivalent in another language. And sometimes a single term may have multiple possible translations, each with distinct associations or imagery, and the translator has to make a judgement call on the word formation that most closely emulates it. And then we have slang, terms of endearment, swear words, cultural references...

So, a translator shouldn't "interfere", but some level of flexible interpretation is almost unavoidably required.

Why do you guys care now? Because the person in the crossfire here was non-binary?

Hrmm... it could be that, or it could just be that we've retained the ability to judge situations on their individual merits.