15 year old kills 9 year old neighbor, charged as adult

[Ultrajoe]

You're right, that sounds like a pretty childish reason kill somebody, ri- Wait.

So what your saying is that because she's fifteen she can't know that murder is wrong?

I was pretty aware of the world around me and how it worked at fifteen, and I'm sure most people have a good moral compass by the age of at least ten. She obviously places no value on human life since she is so willing to end a life for her own pleasure/curiosity.

No, that's not what I'm saying, but my mouth is the better for you putting the words there. My thanks.

My point is that given that she doesn't know that murder is wrong, she isn't exactly the healthiest of 15-year-olds. Given her history of depression and suicide attempts I don't think I'd be challenged in asserting she is suffering from a mental imbalance. She has commited a crime, but now she is to be rehabilitated. This is not the Vengeance system, or the Punishment system, but the Justice system. That is why we name them correctional facilities and not torture houses, even if they sometimes act like the latter.

We've come a long way with treatment of such things, and I think someone as young as her deserves such a chance at a life past four walls and a washbasin. People here are right, we shouldn't stick to the rules here and just let logic fly out the window: But the logic is to try and help the poor girl, not lock her away out of some perverse eye-for-an-eye mentality.

 

[Dys]

It's wrong. She doesn't have the rights of an adult, she is not a full citizen and it is therefore wrong to treat her the same way. That's the whole point of the 'minor' system, they are too young to be adults, and are protected from the adult world.

By the age of 15 you either know right from wrong or you do not. There are times when charging a minor as an adult is wrong, but this isn't one of them. Sure, she's just a teenager from a messed up home...but she killed a little girl. Strangled her, slashed her throat, and then stabbed her so says the article. And for what reason? Revenge? Money? Nope, neither one. She did it for the hell of it.

I'm not saying that she shouldn't be punished, killing little girls is hardly something I encourage. I'm saying that it's morally objectable to treat a minor as an adult when they are being prosecuted. She is not allowed adult rights, she can not vote, drink, gamble, drive etc because society deems her as being too immature. If you are too immature to be able to vote or drive, then you sure as all hell are too immature to understand what it is to take the life of another.

She is not an adult, she does not have an adult understanding of the situation. The very nature of the crime proves that, she had no reason other than wanting to better understand herself, she did not understand the consequences to her actions nor was she able to cope with the after effects on herself (thus why she turned herself in). Comprehension is different from planning, just because it was premeditated doesn't mean she understood the crime. It isn't about knowing right from wrong, your average 5 year old knows right from wrong, it's about being able to comprehend the direct consequences of doing wrong, which she clearly can not.

 

[Psypherus]

Fuck a trial. Just shoot the kid in the head. Save some tax dollars.

 

[quiet_samurai]

It's wrong. She doesn't have the rights of an adult, she is not a full citizen and it is therefore wrong to treat her the same way. That's the whole point of the 'minor' system, they are too young to be adults, and are protected from the adult world.

This is very true, but... she seemed to be very aware of what she was doing and the fact she prepared for it days beforehand suggests an adult understanding of what she going to do. Even though she doesn't have adult rights, a 15 year old knows what murder is.

Your point does make it a rather difficult choice though.

It is by no means an easy choice, most likely there is no 'right' way to deal with her.

The distinction has been made between child and adult, and in my opinion it should be honoured. She planned it like an adult, and was aware of what she was doing but clearly couldn't comprehend the resulting repercussions of her actions, especially on her own psyche. I don't imagine she was always planning to turn herself in, especially after having hidden the bodies so well so that should say something about how it affected her. She should definately have the maximum sentance possible for a child, a heavy punishment is very necissary.

The thing is though, in some states there is a cap to how long you can keep a juvenile incrcerated... no matter the crime. This is usually up to either 5-6 years or until they are 18. Some states then transfer you to an adult correctional facility or release you completely. And an even more bizarre thing is that once you hit that 18 yr old mark it then comes off your record. So depending on the state she lives in she could only serve three years then be released with a clean criminal record and not suffer any of the penalties an adult would later in life.

 

[Raven's Nest]

My point is that given that she doesn't know that murder is wrong, she isn't exactly the healthiest of 15-year-olds. Given her history of depression and suicide attempts I don't think I'd be challenged in asserting she is suffering from a mental imbalance. She has commited a crime, but now she is to be rehabilitated. This is not the Vengeance system, or the Punishment system, but the Justice system. That is why we name them correctional facilities and not torture houses, even if they sometimes act like the latter.

We've come a long way with treatment of such things, and I think someone as young as her deserves such a chance at a life past four walls and a washbasin. People here are right, we shouldn't stick to the rules here and just let logic fly out the window: But the logic is to try and help the poor girl, not lock her away out of some perverse eye-for-an-eye mentality.

She does however need to be locked away and isolated from other people/prisoners/patients as she has demonstrated her ability to commit murder without a moral thought. I agree that rehabilitation is a better option, but she should still be tried and punished. Not carted off to a mental hospital under the pretence she was insane at the time.

Help the girl by all means if possible but don't let her forget what she's done or make excuses for her.

 

[Dys]

It's wrong. She doesn't have the rights of an adult, she is not a full citizen and it is therefore wrong to treat her the same way. That's the whole point of the 'minor' system, they are too young to be adults, and are protected from the adult world.

This is very true, but... she seemed to be very aware of what she was doing and the fact she prepared for it days beforehand suggests an adult understanding of what she going to do. Even though she doesn't have adult rights, a 15 year old knows what murder is.

Your point does make it a rather difficult choice though.

It is by no means an easy choice, most likely there is no 'right' way to deal with her.

The distinction has been made between child and adult, and in my opinion it should be honoured. She planned it like an adult, and was aware of what she was doing but clearly couldn't comprehend the resulting repercussions of her actions, especially on her own psyche. I don't imagine she was always planning to turn herself in, especially after having hidden the bodies so well so that should say something about how it affected her. She should definately have the maximum sentance possible for a child, a heavy punishment is very necissary.

The thing is though, in some states there is a cap to how long you can keep a juvenile incrcerated... no matter the crime. This is usually up to either 5-6 years or until they are 18. Some states then transfer you to an adult correctional facility or release you completely. And an even more bizarre thing is that once you hit that 18 yr old mark it then comes off your record. So depending on the state she lives in she could only serve three years then be released with a clean criminal record and not suffer any of the penalties an adult would later in life.

Really..god that's stupid. So really, it could very well be a case of "choose the one that's less retarded" rather than "choose the one that best serves justice". All I can say is the laws for minors need to be reworked, which of course the judges have the power to do, but rarely excersize.

 

[QuantumT]

I'm not saying that she shouldn't be punished, killing little girls is hardly something I encourage. I'm saying that it's morally objectable to treat a minor as an adult when they are being prosecuted. She is not allowed adult rights, she can not vote, drink, gamble, drive etc because society deems her as being too immature. If you are too immature to be able to vote or drive, then you sure as all hell are too immature to understand what it is to take the life of another.

I disagree. Voting, drinking, gambling, and driving all have the potential for negative consequences that are not necessarily immediately apparent. In this case, she clearly decided what it was that she was going to do. She made the explicit decision to end the life of another human being. The little girl dying isn't some unforeseeable consequence of her actions, but rather the direct goal.

She is not an adult, she does not have an adult understanding of the situation. The very nature of the crime proves that, she had no reason other than wanting to better understand herself, she did not understand the consequences to her actions nor was she able to cope with the after effects on herself (thus why she turned herself in). Comprehension is different from planning, just because it was premeditated doesn't mean she understood the crime. It isn't about knowing right from wrong, your average 5 year old knows right from wrong, it's about being able to comprehend the direct consequences of doing wrong, which she clearly can not.

Again I think her actions clearly demonstrate that she knew that what she was doing was utterly wrong. The fact that she didn't see how it would affect her own mental state is irrelevant.

 

[Pimppeter2]

You're right, that sounds like a pretty childish reason kill somebody, ri- Wait.

So what your saying is that because she's fifteen she can't know that murder is wrong?

I was pretty aware of the world around me and how it worked at fifteen, and I'm sure most people have a good moral compass by the age of at least ten. She obviously places no value on human life since she is so willing to end a life for her own pleasure/curiosity.

No, that's not what I'm saying, but my mouth is the better for you putting the words there. My thanks.

My point is that given that she doesn't know that murder is wrong, she isn't exactly the healthiest of 15-year-olds. Given her history of depression and suicide attempts I don't think I'd be challenged in asserting she is suffering from a mental imbalance. She has commited a crime, but now she is to be rehabilitated. This is not the Vengeance system, or the Punishment system, but the Justice system. That is why we name them correctional facilities and not torture houses, even if they sometimes act like the latter.

We've come a long way with treatment of such things, and I think someone as young as her deserves such a chance at a life past four walls and a washbasin. People here are right, we shouldn't stick to the rules here and just let logic fly out the window: But the logic is to try and help the poor girl, not lock her away out of some perverse eye-for-an-eye mentality.

Being charged as an adult doesn't mean you wont get medical treatment. It just means you get a longer punishment. They can't give her the death penalty, but they have to stick her in there for everyone else's safety

Regardless of her mental condition she still commited second degree murder

2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

She may be suffering from depression, but this was not "in the heat of the moment"

Anybody who plans and kills anyone is fucked up in the head anyway.

 

[Pimppeter2]

C'mon people killing is fun just like in the games and she was probably depressed i still think she should be arrested but i can see why she did it no one can say that they haven't had the urge to just kill some one shes hardcore

Yea, but the rest of us have self restrain


That's why we lock them far away from us until they're "fixed" or dead

 

[Low Key]

She deserves to be tried as an adult, no question about it.

Case in point: my friend, at 16, was almost tried as an adult for robbing someone with a BB gun. If the cops didn't botch most of the evidence, he would have been in adult prison over $70.

I know for a fact he knew was he was doing, and at 15, that girl knew exactly what she was doing too.

 

[Dys]

I'm not saying that she shouldn't be punished, killing little girls is hardly something I encourage. I'm saying that it's morally objectable to treat a minor as an adult when they are being prosecuted. She is not allowed adult rights, she can not vote, drink, gamble, drive etc because society deems her as being too immature. If you are too immature to be able to vote or drive, then you sure as all hell are too immature to understand what it is to take the life of another.

I disagree. Voting, drinking, gambling, and driving all have the potential for negative consequences that are not necessarily immediately apparent. In this case, she clearly decided what it was that she was going to do. She made the explicit decision to end the life of another human being. The little girl dying isn't some unforeseeable consequence of her actions, but rather the direct goal.

The direct goal was to see what it felt like, not to take the life of the girl, and while that turned out to be rather a bad experience for her, the consequences were still unkown when she acted(especially the way society reacted, no doubt she lacks empathy). Comparitively, the consequences of gambling (for example) are far less shrowded, as you either win or lose (pretty linear). With driving, the consequences are very comparable to the crime she has committed (as you can crash and kill/seriously hurt someone), if we protect children from having to deal with those consequences in that context I don't see why we would suddenly treat them as an adult when they commit an act that leads to a similar chain of events (in that somebody has died obviously, accidental car crashes are not treated the same as murders by the law nor should they be).

She is not an adult, she does not have an adult understanding of the situation. The very nature of the crime proves that, she had no reason other than wanting to better understand herself, she did not understand the consequences to her actions nor was she able to cope with the after effects on herself (thus why she turned herself in). Comprehension is different from planning, just because it was premeditated doesn't mean she understood the crime. It isn't about knowing right from wrong, your average 5 year old knows right from wrong, it's about being able to comprehend the direct consequences of doing wrong, which she clearly can not.

Again I think her actions clearly demonstrate that she knew that what she was doing was utterly wrong. The fact that she didn't see how it would affect her own mental state is irrelevant.

Could you explain how her lack of understanding is irrelivent? She not only didn't understand how it would affect her (which I think is perfectly relivent), she also didn't understand how her familty, the victems family and the community would react.

My opinion has been somewhat changed by other posts on the thread, as I assumed the law isn't retarded when dealing with children. Apparently in some states children can be detained for a maximum of 3 years and, upon release, have no criminal record. I obviously disagree with that, and in that scenario it become less of a choice of "what's more just" and more of a "which one is less retarded" thought process.

 

[BattleOnion]

Fuck a trial. Just shoot the kid in the head.quote]

i dont know about anyone else but i thaink anyone that sets up to murder someone like this can get fucked 15 is plenty old enough to know whats happening think of the little 9 yo parents and the little girl herself they done nothing to deserve this.

some might argue depression mental imbalance etc is hell well i bet its a whole lot better than having your throat cut

 

[Bat Vader]

Since she isn't 18 yet I say don't try her as an adult. At the same time she planned this death out so I think that there should be a much harsher sentence for her.

I say place her in a juvenile delinquency type of house until she is 18 and then charge her as an adult. That way she is charged as a minor now and an adult later.

 

[londelen]

She does not have the rights or treatment of an adult, therefore she should not be tried as an adult.

And to the defenders of her charging: If you cannot vote then the law says you cannot tell the difference between right and wrong.

 

[A Weary Exile]

You're right, that sounds like a pretty childish reason kill somebody, ri- Wait.

So what your saying is that because she's fifteen she can't know that murder is wrong?

I was pretty aware of the world around me and how it worked at fifteen, and I'm sure most people have a good moral compass by the age of at least ten. She obviously places no value on human life since she is so willing to end a life for her own pleasure/curiosity.

No, that's not what I'm saying, but my mouth is the better for you putting the words there. My thanks.

My point is that given that she doesn't know that murder is wrong, she isn't exactly the healthiest of 15-year-olds. Given her history of depression and suicide attempts I don't think I'd be challenged in asserting she is suffering from a mental imbalance. She has commited a crime, but now she is to be rehabilitated. This is not the Vengeance system, or the Punishment system, but the Justice system. That is why we name them correctional facilities and not torture houses, even if they sometimes act like the latter.

We've come a long way with treatment of such things, and I think someone as young as her deserves such a chance at a life past four walls and a washbasin. People here are right, we shouldn't stick to the rules here and just let logic fly out the window: But the logic is to try and help the poor girl, not lock her away out of some perverse eye-for-an-eye mentality.

Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, that's just how I interpreted your post (Can't blame me though, it was rather short ).

She seems to have her wits about her, she did plan-out the murders of her classmates rather well, so she seems capable of using logic, so we know that part of her brain is functioning properly. She probably does have a chemical imbalance, but I doubt that any amount of rehablitation could permenantly desuade the darker demons of someone who kills before they've reached puberty. I could definetley see how you could rehabilitate a suicidal (Assure them that their life is worth living) but how do you rehabilitate someone who places no value on the life of another or their own for that matter?

I just don't see fifteen as that young, I was fifteen two years ago (I'm seventeen for you math geniuses watching at home ) I could see someone much younger (8-10) being persuaded by a chemical imbalance to resort to murder since their brains are far less developed, but fifteen? At that age you should be able to stop and think "This is wrong." At that age the knowledge you've gained over the years should tell you that murder is frowned upon in society, regardless of what kind of mood swings you experience. Did she ever seek help? Did she tell her parents how she had been feeling?

I guess my stance on this stems from those certain cases where a man murders x number of people and gets to spend the rest of his life in a cozy (Well compared to prison) mental institution because they were "Too crazy to know what they were doing." and the rest of the populaion has to pay for it. Why is the rest of the population punished instead of the criminal? That seems back-asswards to me.

I should also say that I really zero sympathy for someone who kills for any reason other than self-defense, regardless of what caused it. People tell me that I am cruel all the time, that is probably somewhat true, it's just the way I think.

Sorry 'bout the ramblin' there.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Being charged as an adult doesn't mean you wont get medical treatment. It just means you get a longer punishment. They can't give her the death penalty, but they have to stick her in there for everyone else's safety

Regardless of her mental condition she still commited second degree murder

That's right. But assuming that we're dealing with someone unwell in the mind, don't you think that charging them as an adult is a bit... counterproductive? I mean, part of the idea of accounting for mental imbalance is that they lacked the mental capacities of an adult when they commited their crime. The accused is a Minor, and one probably lacking her full and healthy ability to judge her actions, doesn't it strike you as odd to take the step into adult law and then argue she was... not adult?

Charging her as an adult is skipping right past the ability of her defence to plea insanity and ask for more appropriate proceedings. Also, she is a minor...

 

[lostclause]

Yes, that seems right. She is fifteen, she can be tried as an adult but I doubt she'll be sentenced as an adult. This is first degree murder and whilst her age may be borderline I think this is right.

 

[Pendragon9]

If you can plan it, you are responsible.

LEt the teen feel the repurcussions of such a horrible offense. Unless you wanna let them kill again.

 

[Enzeru92]

OMG another fail for our Justice system