5 cops shot 1 killed, 2 civilians shot

[thelizardofdoom]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/multiple-sheriff-apos-deputies-apos-160310343.html?soc_trk=gcm&soc_src=ecd5e8af-dc90-3332-9efb-d522bf6b8dfa&.tsrc=notification-brknews

For those of you who don't understand why the guy got killed in the SWATTING incident the other day....this is why. Domestic Violence is one of the most dangerous calls for any cop.

Domestic Violence:
Leading cause of injury to females.
60-85% of all homicides between Significant Others had a partner that was committing Domestic Violence.
A woman is 70% more likely to be murdered after leaving* her abusive partner than at any other point in the relationship.
The longer the relationship continues the more likely the abused will be killed by the abuser.
I have seen figures as high as 85% of Domestic violence incidents having drugs or alcohol involved.
2/5 mass shootings began with the shooter killing their significant other.
Domestic Violence calls composed the majority of Officer deaths excluding traffic accidents.

Domestic violence is an enormously violent offense and a critical danger to the abused and to the Police who respond to it. If you wish to discuss how terrible and evil you believe cops to be, a person reaching into his waistband at a (supposedly) self-reported murder and hostage situation is not one of them.

And just for the sake of it, if anyone is reading this who needs help, here is the National Domestic Violence Website: http://www.thehotline.org/
And the number: 1−800−799−7233

 

[Saelune]

Because cops are bad at their job? Yeah. I know.

Bad enough we dont expect cops to do a good job, you would hope we would atleast expect SWAT, who are supposed to be the better trained police, to ya know, be good at their job. Why fire anyone if murder is no longer a dismissible offense?

If you care so much about the safety of domestic abuse victims, why dont you care about police abuse victims?

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Because cops are bad at their job? Yeah. I know.

Bad enough we dont expect cops to do a good job, you would hope we would atleast expect SWAT, who are supposed to be the better trained police, to ya know, be good at their job. Why fire anyone if murder is no longer a dismissible offense?

If you care so much about the safety of domestic abuse victims, why dont you care about police abuse victims?

Fine, why don't you tell us how you, as a potential SWAT team member would have handled a call like this? You got one suspect. He's on the porch. You tell him to freeze. He reaches into his waistband. What do you do, knowing that you guys received a call about an already violent hostage situation?

 

[Saelune]

Because cops are bad at their job? Yeah. I know.

Bad enough we dont expect cops to do a good job, you would hope we would atleast expect SWAT, who are supposed to be the better trained police, to ya know, be good at their job. Why fire anyone if murder is no longer a dismissible offense?

If you care so much about the safety of domestic abuse victims, why dont you care about police abuse victims?

Fine, why don't you tell us how you, as a potential SWAT team member would have handled a call like this? You got one suspect. He's on the porch. You tell him to freeze. He reaches into his waistband. What do you do, knowing that you guys received a call about an already violent hostage situation?

Shouldnt a SWAT officer have more training than me? Ya know training that is supposed to keep innocent people alive and dangerous people not dangerous?

Cause if someone as 'trained' as me is a SWAT member, then maybe thats part of the problem?

Edit: Im also not a brain surgeon. And if I was about to perform brain surgery, my first action would be to say "Hey, Im not a brain surgeon, have someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING do it".

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Fine, why don't you tell us how you, as a potential SWAT team member would have handled a call like this? You got one suspect. He's on the porch. You tell him to freeze. He reaches into his waistband. What do you do, knowing that you guys received a call about an already violent hostage situation?

Given you already have a weapon trained on him? How about not making the assumption people have the wherewithal and might not be able to correctly assess that 'freeze' doesn't include stopping your clothes falling off you due to potential intoxication, mental illness, language or intellectual barriers?

Being a police officer in the U.S. is statistically safer than being a farmhand. Killing people outright when it is merely a vague potentiality seems like a shocking disregard or disownership of the idea that being a police officer means accepting some degree of danger, not transforming said danger into an excuse to be overtly paranoid. Being a police officer doesn't even make it into the top ten dangerous jobs in the U.S. Yet many of those jobs we wouldn't agree to them packing heat and shooting people at the slightest possible hint of obstruction or danger.

How about actual transparency and a public investigation, or at least some sign of remorse on behalf of shooting an innocent person and taking personal responsibility for your actions...? Not hiding behind these petty arguments when this is such a ridiculously common occurrence?

In the military you're trained only to point a gun at someone when you mean to ventilate them, you shoot when you establish PID ... yet I've seen U.S. cops follow no basic safety protocols or basic threat evaluation steps before plugging people. The rifle was already trained on him,which is really fucking dangerous because your average civilian is taught not to point gunsat people unless you mean to shoot them ... your soldiers are traine not to point a gun at someone unless you mean to shoot them .... everyone in the U.S. barring police it seems are taught this basic threat evaluation step.

This is a highly dangerous situation when SWAT are still expected to make arrests.

When it gets to the point where I reckon that your soldiers would cause less wrongful shootings because they've been trained in basic trigger protocol and gun discipline you've got a fucking problem.

The first step to fixing a problem is admitting there is one. We can badger on the moral relativism that; "Oh sure, but not all cops are like this!" as much as you want, surely the moral metric is yeah, how about making an effort to at least aim to have 0 bad cops?

It's called 'inhouse cleaning'... happens in nearly every other job people have to suffer through.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Because cops are bad at their job? Yeah. I know.

Bad enough we dont expect cops to do a good job, you would hope we would atleast expect SWAT, who are supposed to be the better trained police, to ya know, be good at their job. Why fire anyone if murder is no longer a dismissible offense?

If you care so much about the safety of domestic abuse victims, why dont you care about police abuse victims?

Fine, why don't you tell us how you, as a potential SWAT team member would have handled a call like this? You got one suspect. He's on the porch. You tell him to freeze. He reaches into his waistband. What do you do, knowing that you guys received a call about an already violent hostage situation?

Shouldnt a SWAT officer have more training than me? Ya know training that is supposed to keep innocent people alive and dangerous people not dangerous?

Cause if someone as 'trained' as me is a SWAT member, then maybe thats part of the problem?

Edit: Im also not a brain surgeon. And if I was about to perform brain surgery, my first action would be to say "Hey, Im not a brain surgeon, have someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING do it".

Then the issue isn't that the SWAT team doesn't know what they're doing. You, and many others, don't like their methods. Which is completely fair because sometimes it results in the death of innocence. Under the circumstances, though, it's not difficult to understand why the officer did what he did. If the potential suspect has been ordered to put his hands up, and complied, what possible reason could he have to put his hands back down? Despite how you may feel, officers shouldn't be trained to wait until they're being fired upon to shoot a suspect. It puts their lives, and the lives of bystanders in danger. Thus, you see someone reach for a weapon, you shoot them before they get the chance to fire. The flow of events makes complete sense, it's just unfortunate that an innocent man died as a result.

More or better training is usually what people suggest to avoid these situations, but there's little training can do if the suspect refuses to comply. The death of Daniel Shaver, on the other hand, could have been prevented. The officers were given plenty of opportunities to handcuff him, but they decided a to play a game of Simon Says instead.

 

[Saelune]

Because cops are bad at their job? Yeah. I know.

Bad enough we dont expect cops to do a good job, you would hope we would atleast expect SWAT, who are supposed to be the better trained police, to ya know, be good at their job. Why fire anyone if murder is no longer a dismissible offense?

If you care so much about the safety of domestic abuse victims, why dont you care about police abuse victims?

Fine, why don't you tell us how you, as a potential SWAT team member would have handled a call like this? You got one suspect. He's on the porch. You tell him to freeze. He reaches into his waistband. What do you do, knowing that you guys received a call about an already violent hostage situation?

Shouldnt a SWAT officer have more training than me? Ya know training that is supposed to keep innocent people alive and dangerous people not dangerous?

Cause if someone as 'trained' as me is a SWAT member, then maybe thats part of the problem?

Edit: Im also not a brain surgeon. And if I was about to perform brain surgery, my first action would be to say "Hey, Im not a brain surgeon, have someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING do it".

Then the issue isn't that the SWAT team doesn't know what they're doing. You, and many others, don't like their methods. Which is completely fair because sometimes it results in the death of innocence. Under the circumstances, though, it's not difficult to understand why the officer did what he did. If the potential suspect has been ordered to put his hands up, and complied, what possible reason could he have to put his hands back down? Despite how you may feel, officers shouldn't be trained to wait until they're being fired upon to shoot a suspect. It puts their lives, and the lives of bystanders in danger. Thus, you see someone reach for a weapon, you shoot them before they get the chance to fire. The flow of events makes complete sense, it's just unfortunate that an innocent man died as a result.

More or better training is usually what people suggest to avoid these situations, but there's little training can do if the suspect refuses to comply. The death of Daniel Shaver, on the other hand, could have been prevented. The officers were given plenty of opportunities to handcuff him, but they decided a to play a game of Simon Says instead.

Police and SWAT and the military are SUPPOSED to Protect and Serve, not be the threat we need protecting. If they did everything 'right' then their right is wrong.

Just as the President is supposed to represent The People of this country.

Screw legal mumbo jumbo bullshit. The systems dont work and need to be abolished and remade to be fair and just. They are not and that is a problem. The SWAT team are murderers and need to be treated as and punished as the incompetent murderers they are, as must the two people who started this problem to begin with.

Unfortunate is a movie being bad, or there not being anymore ice cream in the freezer. Unjust murder is simply unacceptable.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Because cops are bad at their job? Yeah. I know.

Bad enough we dont expect cops to do a good job, you would hope we would atleast expect SWAT, who are supposed to be the better trained police, to ya know, be good at their job. Why fire anyone if murder is no longer a dismissible offense?

If you care so much about the safety of domestic abuse victims, why dont you care about police abuse victims?

Fine, why don't you tell us how you, as a potential SWAT team member would have handled a call like this? You got one suspect. He's on the porch. You tell him to freeze. He reaches into his waistband. What do you do, knowing that you guys received a call about an already violent hostage situation?

Shouldnt a SWAT officer have more training than me? Ya know training that is supposed to keep innocent people alive and dangerous people not dangerous?

Cause if someone as 'trained' as me is a SWAT member, then maybe thats part of the problem?

Edit: Im also not a brain surgeon. And if I was about to perform brain surgery, my first action would be to say "Hey, Im not a brain surgeon, have someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING do it".

Then the issue isn't that the SWAT team doesn't know what they're doing. You, and many others, don't like their methods. Which is completely fair because sometimes it results in the death of innocence. Under the circumstances, though, it's not difficult to understand why the officer did what he did. If the potential suspect has been ordered to put his hands up, and complied, what possible reason could he have to put his hands back down? Despite how you may feel, officers shouldn't be trained to wait until they're being fired upon to shoot a suspect. It puts their lives, and the lives of bystanders in danger. Thus, you see someone reach for a weapon, you shoot them before they get the chance to fire. The flow of events makes complete sense, it's just unfortunate that an innocent man died as a result.

More or better training is usually what people suggest to avoid these situations, but there's little training can do if the suspect refuses to comply. The death of Daniel Shaver, on the other hand, could have been prevented. The officers were given plenty of opportunities to handcuff him, but they decided a to play a game of Simon Says instead.

Police and SWAT and the military are SUPPOSED to Protect and Serve, not be the threat we need protecting. If they did everything 'right' then their right is wrong.

Just as the President is supposed to represent The People of this country.

Screw legal mumbo jumbo bullshit. The systems dont work and need to be abolished and remade to be fair and just. They are not and that is a problem. The SWAT team are murderers and need to be treated as and punished as the incompetent murderers they are, as must the two people who started this problem to begin with.

Unfortunate is a movie being bad, or there not being anymore ice cream in the freezer. Unjust murder is simply unacceptable.

But they weren't incompetent. They surrounded the house, but before they could make contact, someone opens the door. They tell him to put his hands up in the air and he does, but he, for whatever reason, seems to reach for his waist. What then? There's only one logical conclusion to come to for why someone would ignore an officers commands. Especially someone whom they assumed to have already shot his father and threatened to light his home on fire. It isn't fair to paint the officer as a homicidal maniac. He did his job the way he was supposed to. There is no such training that will guarantee the lives of innocent suspects. Especially those that do not comply.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Shouldnt a SWAT officer have more training than me? Ya know training that is supposed to keep innocent people alive and dangerous people not dangerous?

You keep talking about "training" as if it's going to solve every single problem. Where if anything goes wrong, it's because the officer wasn't trained enough. Sorry. Training isn't going to make ALL the problems stop. And in any case, SWAT tend to have the most trained people in the US, barring actual special forces. It's like saying the Spetsnaz are total pussies who didn't get enough training because some of them died in combat.

 

[Saelune]

Because cops are bad at their job? Yeah. I know.

Bad enough we dont expect cops to do a good job, you would hope we would atleast expect SWAT, who are supposed to be the better trained police, to ya know, be good at their job. Why fire anyone if murder is no longer a dismissible offense?

If you care so much about the safety of domestic abuse victims, why dont you care about police abuse victims?

Fine, why don't you tell us how you, as a potential SWAT team member would have handled a call like this? You got one suspect. He's on the porch. You tell him to freeze. He reaches into his waistband. What do you do, knowing that you guys received a call about an already violent hostage situation?

Shouldnt a SWAT officer have more training than me? Ya know training that is supposed to keep innocent people alive and dangerous people not dangerous?

Cause if someone as 'trained' as me is a SWAT member, then maybe thats part of the problem?

Edit: Im also not a brain surgeon. And if I was about to perform brain surgery, my first action would be to say "Hey, Im not a brain surgeon, have someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING do it".

Then the issue isn't that the SWAT team doesn't know what they're doing. You, and many others, don't like their methods. Which is completely fair because sometimes it results in the death of innocence. Under the circumstances, though, it's not difficult to understand why the officer did what he did. If the potential suspect has been ordered to put his hands up, and complied, what possible reason could he have to put his hands back down? Despite how you may feel, officers shouldn't be trained to wait until they're being fired upon to shoot a suspect. It puts their lives, and the lives of bystanders in danger. Thus, you see someone reach for a weapon, you shoot them before they get the chance to fire. The flow of events makes complete sense, it's just unfortunate that an innocent man died as a result.

More or better training is usually what people suggest to avoid these situations, but there's little training can do if the suspect refuses to comply. The death of Daniel Shaver, on the other hand, could have been prevented. The officers were given plenty of opportunities to handcuff him, but they decided a to play a game of Simon Says instead.

Police and SWAT and the military are SUPPOSED to Protect and Serve, not be the threat we need protecting. If they did everything 'right' then their right is wrong.

Just as the President is supposed to represent The People of this country.

Screw legal mumbo jumbo bullshit. The systems dont work and need to be abolished and remade to be fair and just. They are not and that is a problem. The SWAT team are murderers and need to be treated as and punished as the incompetent murderers they are, as must the two people who started this problem to begin with.

Unfortunate is a movie being bad, or there not being anymore ice cream in the freezer. Unjust murder is simply unacceptable.

But they weren't incompetent. They surrounded the house, but before they could make contact, someone opens the door. They tell him to put his hands up in the air and he does, but he, for whatever reason, seems to reach for his waist. What then? There's only one logical conclusion to come to for why someone would ignore an officers commands. Especially someone whom they assumed to have already shot his father and threatened to light his home on fire. It isn't fair to paint the officer as a homicidal maniac. He did his job the way he was supposed to. There is no such training that will guarantee the lives of innocent suspects. Especially those that do not comply.

I am painting them as fatally incompetent. I dont care about the risk to the officers lives, since they are supposed to be trained to risk them. Or are we going to let firefighters say "Let them burn, Im not going in there"?

It isnt fair to let incompetant cowards get away with killing innocent people left and right.

 

[Saelune]

Shouldnt a SWAT officer have more training than me? Ya know training that is supposed to keep innocent people alive and dangerous people not dangerous?

You keep talking about "training" as if it's going to solve every single problem. Where if anything goes wrong, it's because the officer wasn't trained enough. Sorry. Training isn't going to make ALL the problems stop. And in any case, SWAT tend to have the most trained people in the US, barring actual special forces. It's like saying the Spetsnaz are total pussies who didn't get enough training since some of them died in combat.

All the problems? Maybe not, but we keep seeing the same problems. When do they learn their lessons?

The SWAT team killed a guy cause they got pranked by some random person. That doesnt scream 'well trained' to me.

This wasnt some random guy who walked into a bank filled with heavily armed robbers, or into some office building commandeered by heavily armed terrorists, this was a guy in his own home minding his own business and had the unlucky draw of some person far away using their address.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

All the problems? Maybe not, but we keep seeing the same problems. When do they learn their lessons?

The SWAT team killed a guy cause they got pranked by some random person. That doesnt scream 'well trained' to me.

This wasnt some random guy who walked into a bank filled with heavily armed robbers, or into some office building commandeered by heavily armed terrorists, this was a guy in his own home minding his own business and had the unlucky draw of some person far away using their address.

If I see a problem with anything here, procedure wise, it's perhaps how just any turd can submit an anonymous tip and get SWAT over to anyone's house. Maybe anyone who tips the police off with a SWAT level situation needs to allow themselves to be taken into custody first?

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

I am painting them as fatally incompetent. I dont care about the risk to the officers lives, since they are supposed to be trained to risk them. Or are we going to let firefighters say "Let them burn, Im not going in there"?

It isnt fair to let incompetant cowards get away with killing innocent people left and right.

I'm sure if a Firefighter could put out the fire before going it without risking the lives of those trapped inside, they would. I don't care how much training they've recieved, that doesn't make their lives forfeit nor does it make death easy to face. And just the fact that they wear the badge makes them braver than most.

All the problems? Maybe not, but we keep seeing the same problems. When do they learn their lessons?

The SWAT team killed a guy cause they got pranked by some random person. That doesnt scream 'well trained' to me.

This wasnt some random guy who walked into a bank filled with heavily armed robbers, or into some office building commandeered by heavily armed terrorists, this was a guy in his own home minding his own business and had the unlucky draw of some person far away using their address.

None of that is their fault, though.

 

[Saelune]

I am painting them as fatally incompetent. I dont care about the risk to the officers lives, since they are supposed to be trained to risk them. Or are we going to let firefighters say "Let them burn, Im not going in there"?

It isnt fair to let incompetant cowards get away with killing innocent people left and right.

I'm sure if a Firefighter could put out the fire before going it without risking the lives of those trapped inside, they would. I don't care how much training they've recieved, that doesn't make their lives forfeit nor does it make death easy to face. And just the fact that they wear the badge makes them braver than most.

All the problems? Maybe not, but we keep seeing the same problems. When do they learn their lessons?

The SWAT team killed a guy cause they got pranked by some random person. That doesnt scream 'well trained' to me.

This wasnt some random guy who walked into a bank filled with heavily armed robbers, or into some office building commandeered by heavily armed terrorists, this was a guy in his own home minding his own business and had the unlucky draw of some person far away using their address.

None of that is their fault, though.

You mean...like... assess the situation first? Make sure there is a problem before just running in headfirst? What a crazy thought.

Wearing a badge doesnt mean a person is brave. It could mean they want to use a gun alongside excessive power.

It became their fault when they pulled the trigger on an innocent man.

 

[Leg End]

Was it even a SWAT team? I couldn't tell jack from the distance in the video but it looks like it was just regular beat cops.

Shouldnt a SWAT officer have more training than me? Ya know training that is supposed to keep innocent people alive and dangerous people not dangerous?

It helps, but no amount of training can make someone a certified miracle worker.

Police and SWAT and the military are SUPPOSED to Protect and Serve, not be the threat we need protecting.

You're ultimately responsible for your own safety. Trusting your safety to someone else has predictable consequences.

The SWAT team are murderers and need to be treated as and punished as the incompetent murderers they are, as must the two people who started this problem to begin with.

You just reminded me. How much blame DOES the first guy ultimately have in this? Sure he provided the address but he supposedly also said it was at penalty of the guy getting arrested to do it. In court, he might actually have a solid defense somewhere.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

I am painting them as fatally incompetent. I dont care about the risk to the officers lives, since they are supposed to be trained to risk them. Or are we going to let firefighters say "Let them burn, Im not going in there"?

It isnt fair to let incompetant cowards get away with killing innocent people left and right.

I'm sure if a Firefighter could put out the fire before going it without risking the lives of those trapped inside, they would. I don't care how much training they've recieved, that doesn't make their lives forfeit nor does it make death easy to face. And just the fact that they wear the badge makes them braver than most.

All the problems? Maybe not, but we keep seeing the same problems. When do they learn their lessons?

The SWAT team killed a guy cause they got pranked by some random person. That doesnt scream 'well trained' to me.

This wasnt some random guy who walked into a bank filled with heavily armed robbers, or into some office building commandeered by heavily armed terrorists, this was a guy in his own home minding his own business and had the unlucky draw of some person far away using their address.

None of that is their fault, though.

You mean...like... assess the situation first? Make sure there is a problem before just running in headfirst? What a crazy thought.

Wearing a badge doesnt mean a person is brave. It could mean they want to use a gun alongside excessive power.

It became their fault when they pulled the trigger on an innocent man.

Assessing the situation is exactly what they were doing when they created a perimeter. They didn't run in headfirst, they were going to make contact, but the victim opened the door before they could. Pulling the trigger on an innocent man is their fault, their mistake, sure. But nothing prior is their fault in the slightest.

 

[Saelune]

I am painting them as fatally incompetent. I dont care about the risk to the officers lives, since they are supposed to be trained to risk them. Or are we going to let firefighters say "Let them burn, Im not going in there"?

It isnt fair to let incompetant cowards get away with killing innocent people left and right.

I'm sure if a Firefighter could put out the fire before going it without risking the lives of those trapped inside, they would. I don't care how much training they've recieved, that doesn't make their lives forfeit nor does it make death easy to face. And just the fact that they wear the badge makes them braver than most.

All the problems? Maybe not, but we keep seeing the same problems. When do they learn their lessons?

The SWAT team killed a guy cause they got pranked by some random person. That doesnt scream 'well trained' to me.

This wasnt some random guy who walked into a bank filled with heavily armed robbers, or into some office building commandeered by heavily armed terrorists, this was a guy in his own home minding his own business and had the unlucky draw of some person far away using their address.

None of that is their fault, though.

You mean...like... assess the situation first? Make sure there is a problem before just running in headfirst? What a crazy thought.

Wearing a badge doesnt mean a person is brave. It could mean they want to use a gun alongside excessive power.

It became their fault when they pulled the trigger on an innocent man.

Assessing the situation is exactly what they were doing when they created a perimeter. They didn't run in headfirst, they were going to make contact, but the victim opened the door before they could. Pulling the trigger on an innocent man is their fault, their mistake, sure. But nothing prior is their fault in the slightest.

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

 

[Saelune]

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

But the whole 'pulling the trigger on an innocent man' is kinda the issue here to begin with.

Hindsight's 20/20.

Trained people with guns whos hands we put our lives in should be very concerned with doing it right the first time. And hindsight? How many people have police and SWAT killed that should have gotten them to shape up by now?

Now you're really just scrounging for excuses to defend murderers.

It's true, there have been many shootings this year where, at least from the view of civilians, better methods could have been used. This is not one of those.