A question of absolutes

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Torrasque

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I don't like dealing with absolutes.
Absolutes are annoying to deal with, because if you make your absolute too large, then 1 example can destroy the absolute. If you make your absolute too small, then it doesn't really mean anything. The only absolute statement that I believe in, is that there are absolutely no absolute statements or opinions. There are absolutes in mathematics and science, but that is more or less irrelevant for this topic. I just want to talk about what people think or say.

I try to treat all subjects as gray matter; that infinitely large space between white and black opinions. For example, a white opinion would be, "god exists" and a black opinion would be, "god does not exist"I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion, this is just the easiest example I could think of at the moment. The gray area in between these two opinions is, "god could exist but he could not exist". The main reason I like this gray area, is because it requires evidence and supportNo really, I am NOT trying to turn this into a discussion about religion =|, you need to support your opinion to give it credibility. What I also like about the gray area, is that your opinion can develop into a white-ish or black-ish opinion with time and new evidence. You can think, "I don't like pie" but come across a pie that is very good and change your opinion to "pie is actually pretty damn good", then later come across a pie that is terrible and change your opinion to "pie is not always good, but can be". Sticking to a rigid, "all pie is bad" or even, "all X pie is bad" doesn't give you the flexibility to change your opinion when given new evidence.
For example, "rape is bad because it causes irreparable damage to the victim" looks like a white opinion, but that is only because it has support. It is actually a close-to-white-but-actually-gray opinion. Yes it looks like I am being anal, but that is how I classify it. The white opinion would be "rape is bad, no matter what, in all cases, period". Even with rape (puts on flame shield) there are circumstances that I think rape is not bad; like if a rapist goes to jail and gets raped in their cell, I would judge that as a case where rape is not bad. Hell, most people casually joke about prison rape as if it is as commonplace as stubbing your toe. Given enough thought, I can think of a "X is bad, but in Y circumstance, it is acceptable" for anything; sure it requires a whole lot of "ifs" and imagination, but still. My point is, white and black opinions are absolute opinions and have no flexibility, you either adhere to that opinion 100% of the time or you don't adhere to it at all. Gray opinions allow flexibility and can be shaped into white-ish and black-ish opinions case by case.

So enough about me, its time I got to the question I wanted to ask. I just had to do a "little" explaining before I asked my question because even I was confused by what I wanted to ask. I'm sorry the above looks like a wall of text, I just wanted to be as clear as possible.

Question: is there anything you believe in absolutely?
Ex: child porn is bad, fighting games objectify women, slavery is bad, god doesn't exist, etc.

The reason I ask this is because I think most people live in the gray area with me, but think that they live in the white or black area on some subjects. There are a lot of subjects in the world that are polarizing; that drive people to think, "I must think white or black, thinking gray is bad", but as I have hopefully proven to you (or can prove to you if you require more proof) staying in the gray is much better. Staying gray in all things allows your experiences to paint your opinion, rather than having your opinion paint your experiences.

Tried posting this 3 times now but keep getting 404 errors. Hopefully it works this time, I apologize if you see multiple copies of this thread =/
 

Vegosiux

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Torrasque said:
Question: is there anything you believe in absolutely?
Ex: child porn is bad, fighting games objectify women, slavery is bad, god doesn't exist, etc.
Ehhh, I'd say the basic natural constants are absolutes - speed of light in vacuum, Planck constant (both h and h-bar versions, of course), Newtonian gravitational constant, basic electric charge, etc. Even if we were to redefine them, they would not change because of it.
 

Torrasque

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Vegosiux said:
Torrasque said:
Question: is there anything you believe in absolutely?
Ex: child porn is bad, fighting games objectify women, slavery is bad, god doesn't exist, etc.
Ehhh, I'd say the basic natural constants are absolutes - speed of light in vacuum, Planck constant (both h and h-bar versions, of course), Newtonian gravitational constant, basic electric charge, etc. Even if we were to redefine them, they would not change because of it.
Torrasque said:
There are absolutes in mathematics and science, but that is more or less irrelevant for this topic. I just want to talk about what people think or say.
Would you like to try again? :)
 

Vegosiux

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Torrasque said:
Vegosiux said:
Torrasque said:
Question: is there anything you believe in absolutely?
Ex: child porn is bad, fighting games objectify women, slavery is bad, god doesn't exist, etc.
Ehhh, I'd say the basic natural constants are absolutes - speed of light in vacuum, Planck constant (both h and h-bar versions, of course), Newtonian gravitational constant, basic electric charge, etc. Even if we were to redefine them, they would not change because of it.
Torrasque said:
There are absolutes in mathematics and science, but that is more or less irrelevant for this topic. I just want to talk about what people think or say.
Would you like to try again? :)
Of course not, no construct of a purely human mind can be an absolute, considering no human mind has knowledge of the entire situation in the universe.
 

Torrasque

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Vegosiux said:
Torrasque said:
Vegosiux said:
Torrasque said:
Question: is there anything you believe in absolutely?
Ex: child porn is bad, fighting games objectify women, slavery is bad, god doesn't exist, etc.
Ehhh, I'd say the basic natural constants are absolutes - speed of light in vacuum, Planck constant (both h and h-bar versions, of course), Newtonian gravitational constant, basic electric charge, etc. Even if we were to redefine them, they would not change because of it.
Torrasque said:
There are absolutes in mathematics and science, but that is more or less irrelevant for this topic. I just want to talk about what people think or say.
Would you like to try again? :)
Of course not, no construct of a purely human mind can be an absolute, considering no human mind has knowledge of the entire situation in the universe.
I'm talking about absolutes in the context of "this is how things are and thats just the way they are", like how some people believe absolutely that god exists or believe absolutely that god doesn't exist. Basically, closed minded people and/or their close minded opinions.
 

Shadowstar38

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I similarly think most things are grey areas. Most. But here are a few exceptions.

All rape is bad.
All slavery is bad.
Human genocide is bad.

Those are just some large ones. I'm sure there are a few smaller scale issues I can think of given time, they just don't come to me right away.
 

Torrasque

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WoW Killer said:
Killing a baby is bad. Tell me I'm wrong.
Killing a baby is not always wrong.

Lets say the aliens in Alien actually exist, and we somehow manage to kill all of them except one. A baby.
Would killing that baby be wrong?
 

WoW Killer

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Torrasque said:
Killing a baby is not always wrong.

Lets say the aliens in Alien actually exist, and we somehow manage to kill all of them except one. A baby.
Would killing that baby be wrong?
I meant baby to mean an infant human. I've noticed science fiction gets invoked pretty quickly in these sorts of conversations though.
 

Torrasque

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WoW Killer said:
Torrasque said:
Killing a baby is not always wrong.

Lets say the aliens in Alien actually exist, and we somehow manage to kill all of them except one. A baby.
Would killing that baby be wrong?
I meant baby to mean an infant human. I've noticed science fiction gets invoked pretty quickly in these sorts of conversations though.
Ok, so a guy says he'll torch an orphanage unless you kill a single baby. You don't know how many babies are in the orphanage, but there are a lot, many more than that single baby. There is no "save them both" option and he won't laugh then torch the orphanage anyways.
 

WoW Killer

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Torrasque said:
Ok, so a guy says he'll torch an orphanage unless you kill a single baby. You don't know how many babies are in the orphanage, but there are a lot, many more than that single baby. There is no "save them both" option and he won't laugh then torch the orphanage anyways.
You're talking about a lesser of two evils; being a lesser evil doesn't make either thing not evil.
 

DoPo

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WoW Killer said:
Killing a baby is bad. Tell me I'm wrong.
OK, you are wrong.

...now what? Why did I have to say this?

Torrasque said:
Ok, so a guy says he'll torch an orphanage unless you kill a single baby. You don't know how many babies are in the orphanage, but there are a lot, many more than that single baby. There is no "save them both" option and he won't laugh then torch the orphanage anyways.
That's hypothetical scenario doesn't actually mean anything.

OT: I don't really hold any absolutes, at least not as absolutes. I am agnostic in great many respects outside religion, and I'm quite happy to revise and re-evaluate the ideas I hold, if need be. Here is a quote I nicked from somewhere because it described me quite well:

I believe in things that can be proven, directly or indirectly. That which cannot be proven should not be accepted or rejected as truth. Blind faith is the root of ignorance and stupidity.
 

Torrasque

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WoW Killer said:
Torrasque said:
Ok, so a guy says he'll torch an orphanage unless you kill a single baby. You don't know how many babies are in the orphanage, but there are a lot, many more than that single baby. There is no "save them both" option and he won't laugh then torch the orphanage anyways.
You're talking about a lesser of two evils; being a lesser evil doesn't make either thing not evil.
Yes, but you said killing a baby is bad, that is not the same as evil. In this case, killing the single baby to save the other babies, is a good thing. Yes, killing that single baby is still bad, but the byproduct of that action creates good that out-weighs the bad.

If you were to adhere to "killing babies is bad" you wouldn't be able to either kill the baby or tell the guy to set fire to the orphanage and save that one baby. Both would be lost or you would sit there until a decision was made.
 

Torrasque

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DoPo said:
WoW Killer said:
Killing a baby is bad. Tell me I'm wrong.
OK, you are wrong.

...now what? Why did I have to say this?

Torrasque said:
Ok, so a guy says he'll torch an orphanage unless you kill a single baby. You don't know how many babies are in the orphanage, but there are a lot, many more than that single baby. There is no "save them both" option and he won't laugh then torch the orphanage anyways.
That's hypothetical scenario doesn't actually mean anything.

OT: I don't really hold any absolutes, at least not as absolutes. I am agnostic in great many respects outside religion, and I'm quite happy to revise and re-evaluate the ideas I hold, if need be. Here is a quote I nicked from somewhere because it described me quite well:

I believe in things that can be proven, directly or indirectly. That which cannot be proven should not be accepted or rejected as truth. Blind faith is the root of ignorance and stupidity.
Hypothetical situations are the philosopher's sandbox.

I agree with your opinion of things and like that quote, do you know where it is from? It sounds familiar.
 

WoW Killer

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Torrasque said:
Yes, killing that single baby is still bad
You've answered yourself. Killing a baby is bad. Sparing the baby wouldn't torch the orphanage, the 'guy' would torch the orphanage.

(note I only used the word "evil" in the last post because I wanted to avoid the phrase "lesser of two bads")
 

DoPo

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Torrasque said:
Hypothetical situations are the philosopher's sandbox.
True, however that hypothetical situation doesn't really show anything. Killing a baby or burning an orphanage full of babies - it's not a "good" or "bad" choice, just a choice of "bad" or "very bad".

Torrasque said:
I agree with your opinion of things and like that quote, do you know where it is from? It sounds familiar.
I am not entirely sure. I think it was in somebody's signature at some website at some point in time, I can easily be wrong, though. I know I've had it for at least 5 years now. I've done googling before but came up with nothing. Funny thing - nowadaws a Google search will show some Escapist threads where I've quoted that.
 

Torrasque

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WoW Killer said:
Torrasque said:
Yes, killing that single baby is still bad
You've answered yourself. Killing a baby is bad. Sparing the baby wouldn't torch the orphanage, the 'guy' would torch the orphanage.

(note I only used the word "evil" in the last post because I wanted to avoid the phrase "lesser of two bads")
I meant sparing the baby in the sense of: don't kill the baby (spare it) and the guy torches the orphanage.

The difference between your "killing a baby is bad" and my "killing a single baby is still bad, but the byproduct of that action creates good that out-weighs the bad" is that I would kill the baby because in this circumstance, it can be seen as a good action.
 

Torrasque

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DoPo said:
Torrasque said:
Hypothetical situations are the philosopher's sandbox.
True, however that hypothetical situation doesn't really show anything. Killing a baby or burning an orphanage full of babies - it's not a "good" or "bad" choice, just a choice of "bad" or "very bad".

Torrasque said:
I agree with your opinion of things and like that quote, do you know where it is from? It sounds familiar.
I am not entirely sure. I think it was in somebody's signature at some website at some point in time, I can easily be wrong, though. I know I've had it for at least 5 years now. I've done googling before but came up with nothing. Funny thing - nowadaws a Google search will show some Escapist threads where I've quoted that.
lol that IS funny. Just like googling my profile name: Torrasque, used to bring up my WoW character profile, now it brings up Escapist as well.
 

shogunblade

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WoW Killer said:
Torrasque said:
Let's take this into account: Assume the killer in this scenario plans to torch either the orphanage or kill a single baby, perhaps because I don't view my life as particularly important or I'm viewing my life morally grey/gray (As far as I'm interpreting gray/grey by my standards), wouldn't killing yourself be the "right" answer?

Assuming you are old enough to have made mistakes (perhaps even terrible decisions that got somebody hurt or in trouble), all the mistakes you've made wouldn't necessarily make you innocent, but if you yourself was done away with for the good of all the babies involved in this scenario, wouldn't it be better off to choose yourself?

I try not to believe in absolutes myself (I try to be agnostic in every facet of my life), but in almost most of my ideas, I'd rather throw myself under the bus if it means it keeps other people from being hurt, doesn't it make sense that to defy absolute good vs. absolute evil (or absolute Evil vs Evil Evil, in this conversation), wouldn't it be better to just be done away with?
 

Lord Garnaat

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Many things in life operate in grey areas, and things aren't always a clear-cut choice between right and wrong. But I believe that you must take care to avoid living entirely in the middle ground: sit on the fence too long and you'll find yourself impaled on it. There are always areas where there's no obvious good and evil, but you should never lose sight of the fact that there are still areas where there is no grey area, and no compromise. Occasionally, there's only good and evil, and evil has to be punished. Rape, genocide, killing children, and liking Seth MacFarlane shows are crimes that are never justified. There's only good and evil, and evil must be punished.