A question to those who felt that Brutal Legend turned into an RTS partway through.

[random_bars]

Hey, Escapist forumgoers. Here's a question to all of you who felt that this game was 'ruined' because it 'turned into an RTS'.

First, watch this video of me playing through one of the stage battles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BJP4ZujTEs

Now, please tell me at which specific point in that video does the game stop being an action game and become an RTS instead. Because as far as I can tell, it doesn't. Sure, it's an action game in an RTS sorta framework, but everything you're doing is still the exact same stuff you've been doing in the rest of the game - killing stuff with your axe and guitar, playing solos, using teamup attacks with allies, and so on.

Does the occasional one second of choosing what new troops to recruit every couple of minutes or so really change the gameplay so completely? Does the fact that you can now fly around honestly mean that suddenly the game sucks, even though nothing has been removed from the gameplay at all?

 

[Palademon]

Your video is entirely RTS footage.

Ealrier parts of the game included hitting things with your axe (Edit: and nothing else). By the time you're flying and buying units you've gone too far.

 

[Kushin]

Uh... Bump? Can you do that here?

Well, you can, but it's generally frowned upon.

And as a person who played that sodding game all the way to the end, I have to say that the game truly sunk in that 'This is how it's going to stay' around the point where I was ordering headbangers around using controls that reminded me of the robot minigame in Ratchet and Clank.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the game's humor, tone and even it's pro-roadie message. But when a game teases me with kickass driving and hack-slashy fun for the first ten minutes and then goes 'Fetch moar units!' for pretty much the rest of gameplay, I can't help but feel disappointment, not that the game was bad, but that I was tricked into something and had false expectations of it.

 

[Dejawesp]

Uh... Bump? Can you do that here?

Nope you really can't. The mods will be on your ass for it. Its not just frowned on. Its downright illegal.

 

[random_bars]

Uh... Bump? Can you do that here?

Well, you can, but it's generally frowned upon.

And as a person who played that sodding game all the way to the end, I have to say that the game truly sunk in that 'This is how it's going to stay' around the point where I was ordering headbangers around using controls that reminded me of the robot minigame in Ratchet and Clank.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the game's humor, tone and even it's pro-roadie message. But when a game teases me with kickass driving and hack-slashy fun for the first ten minutes and then goes 'Fetch moar units!' for pretty much the rest of gameplay, I can't help but feel disappointment, not that the game was bad, but that I was tricked into something and had false expectations of it.

Did you watch the video? I'm more interested to see whether the experience I had in the game actually matched anyone else's, than what you can remember of it. If you watch the video, you'll see that in the stage battles I'm doing as much hacky-slashy fun stuff as in the rest of the game. I'm basically just wondering whether everyone else's battles looked like that too, because from what I can tell, the main problem with this game wasn't that it was bad, but that it was badly explained and consequently nobody really played it to its full capacity for fun.

I just want to know whether, having watched the video to the end, you still think that the stage battles are a complete gameplay shift, with all the action bits removed, because from where I'm standing... Well, they're just not.

 

[random_bars]

Your video is entirely RTS footage.

Ealrier parts of the game included hitting things with your axe (Edit: and nothing else). By the time you're flying and buying units you've gone too far.

...Did you watch past the first two seconds? My point is that in the video I'm doing just as much hitting things with my axe, and melting faces, and teamup attacks, as in the rest of the game.

 

[Dejawesp]

its an RTS and the first nail in Tim Shaffers coffin.

Next thing you know he will be telling us to play Grim fandango as a cover based FPS. Wouldn't it be better if he just made the games he wanted instead of making other games and claiming they're the games he intended to make?

 

[loa]

Well I think the rts part was an awesome idea, it's kind of like sacrifice except with a metal theme.
They didn't really flesh it out enough though. I wanna build actual bases please. Have more stuff to do.
The solos shouldn't be goddamn quick time events and have a bit more impact like spells in sacrifice do.
Hitting stuff with your axe should either have more impact or be completely canned (fuck that god of war bullshit with enemies having a crapton of health and you hack on them 500 times. Why is that the standard now aynways?) and cars should have an actual function (they are 100% useless in multiplayer and skirmish).

But anyway if you can't tell something has changed the time those base stages pop up and still think it's a pure action game, I can't help you.

 

[Iwata]

I never felt it turned into an RTS, to be honest. I summoned units, yes, but they bolstered my own fighting force, with me leading the way. It felt like I was a captain in the field, rather than an all-powerful general, as defines an RTS.

 

[Realitycrash]

its an RTS and the first nail in Tim Shaffers coffin.

Next thing you know he will be telling us to play Grim fandango as a cover based FPS. Wouldn't it be better if he just made the games he wanted instead of making other games and claiming they're the games he intended to make?

He already made some self-depricating jokes about it during the Pychonaughts 2 kickstarter, so I doubt he will try something similar again.

 

[random_bars]

its an RTS and the first nail in Tim Shaffers coffin.

Next thing you know he will be telling us to play Grim fandango as a cover based FPS. Wouldn't it be better if he just made the games he wanted instead of making other games and claiming they're the games he intended to make?

Did you watch the video...? Look, just - please. Watch the video through to the end. Then feel free to say what you like about the gameplay of the battles. I'm asking about what you feel about the game when played as I play it in the video, not what it was like when you played it.

Well I think the rts part was an awesome idea, it's kind of like sacrifice except with a metal theme.
They didn't really flesh it out enough though. I wanna build actual bases please. Have more stuff to do.
The solos shouldn't be goddamn quick time events and have a bit more impact like spells in sacrifice do.
Hitting stuff with your axe should either have more impact or be completely canned (fuck that god of war bullshit with enemies having a crapton of health and you hack on them 500 times. Why is that the standard now aynways?) and cars should have an actual function (they are 100% useless in multiplayer and skirmish).

But anyway if you can't tell something has changed the time those base stages pop up and still think it's a pure action game, I can't help you.

At least you've heard of Sacrifice, which is a plus. I disagree with you on some of your points though. For example, I think making the solos quicktime events wasn't just a "let's throw this in for the hell of it" thing but an intentional mechanic because it takes the spells of Sacrifice a step further - it doesn't just tie you to one spot and stop you doing anything for the duration of the spell, but it requires you to focus on hitting the notes so it makes it more difficult to even pay attention to anything else, making the decision to play a solo into more of a commitment and a risk.

And I'm not saying that nothing's changed in the stage battles, what I'm saying is that nothing has been removed - you're still using the same axe and the same guitar, the same teamup attacks, the same guitar solos, and so on. I'm saying that people who think the gameplay is completely switched up at these points must be doing something very wrong, because when I play the game, the battles are just the culmination of all the other combat mechanics in the game... Which is why I'm asking people to watch the video of how I play and then tell me if they still think the stage battles are this sudden switchout of gameplay styles.

 

[random_bars]

He already made some self-depricating jokes about it during the Pychonaughts 2 kickstarter, so I doubt he will try something similar again.

...And then clarified that he wasn't being self-deprecating, but was subtly mocking people who didn't get how to play the stage battles. Or "weren't good enough for the metal" as he put it.

 

[Dandark]

It's just that some people got annoyed since the demo didn't even hint that it would have RTS gameplay and then halfway through it involved a lot of RTS gameplay, people who didn't like RTS games felt they had been tricked.

Personally I was fine with it but I would like to be able to do more to the enemies.

 

[random_bars]

It's just that some people got annoyed since the demo didn't even hint that it would have RTS gameplay and then halfway through it involved a lot of RTS gameplay, people who didn't like RTS games felt they had been tricked.

Personally I was fine with it but I would like to be able to do more to the enemies.

That's understandable, the marketing for the game was goddamn stupid. Although you can blame EA for that.

Although... You'd like to be able to do more to the enemies such as what?

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

Honestly, I loved the stage battles. It seems that most of the accusations about people playing them like an RTS come from how they were letting their experience with other games influence their behaviour and expectations. If you just step back for a moment it's pretty clear that it's far more beneficial to be in the middle of the melee fighting alongside your troops than floating around above watching your units trundle around the map. Seems like people only want something unique or different so long as it doesn't confuse them too much.

Also, I loved playing as the Drowning Doom faction online. I had loads of fun.

 

[Blindrooster]

Whatever it was, it was fun. I actually loved the RTS/hack and slash gameplay. It's about as close to my kingdom under fire from the old xbox as I could get.

 

[krellen]

You know, I played it as an RTS (I never landed (except when necessary for guitar solos), just flew and directed troops), but I also love Brutal Legend. I think it was a great game.

 

[random_bars]

Honestly, I loved the stage battles. It seems that most of the accusations about people playing them like an RTS come from how they were letting their experience with other games influence their behaviour and expectations. If you just step back for a moment it's pretty clear that it's far more beneficial to be in the middle of the melee fighting alongside your troops than floating around above watching your units trundle around the map. Seems like people only want something unique or different so long as it doesn't confuse them too much.

Also, I loved playing as the Drowning Doom faction online. I had loads of fun.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm trying to say here. I actually didn't like the battles at first either, but then as I gradually became more confident with the controls and realized that I really ought to be using all the double teams and solos and stuff, the battles became more and more fun the more I got involved in the actual combat and used all the moves I had available.

And it's frustrating that so many people seem adamant that they're going to comment without watching the video first. I'm not posting it to try to swamp you guys with ridiculous amounts of content that you could never get through and then hide behind that to avoid argument. I just want to make sure we're on the same page here, rather than me trying to explain why this game is fun when played in the way I play it, while you guys stubbornly insist that it isn't when you don't even know what it's like when played like I play it. It's just one video, it's not very long and if you really can't be bothered to watch the whole thing then just skip to 2:50 and watch from there, since that's where the fun bit starts.

 

[Smertnik]

The RTS elements really took away from enjoyment, at least for me. It was such a hassle ordering the troops around, especially with a controller, and at latest when you had to assign commands manually to specific groups it all became a jumbled mess. A shame, really, the action combat was rather decent. Not great but good enough to be fun.
The humour wasn't that great, either, and there was too much of Jack Black in the game (these two occurrences may correlate with each other). The only thing that saved the game for me was one of the most awesome video game soundtracks ever.