All these remastered games made me realize just how much i want KOTOR remastered

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FakeSympathy

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KOTOR is on my top 10 favorite games of all time list. Hell, I sill go back to that game here and there. These days, I can see how the gameplay and the UI hasn'y aged very well.

Bioware has now experience with DA and ME series, so I have no reason to believe they will fuck this up. Okay, SWTOR was kinda like the next chapter in the series, but that game just felt mediocre for me. We need a proper KOTOR game. If KOTOR was to be remastered, it should have better combat, better UI, better romance (let's be honest KOTOR romance sucks in today's standards), and of course better graphics.
 

Saelune

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EA got the Star Wars license to make a ton of games, and they said they would be making all their enslaved developers make some of them, including Bioware.

The most logical thing for Bioware to do is a KotoR reboot that re-canonizes Revan's story.

Not saying they -will- do it, but I mean...they do want money don't they?
 

The Purple Grape

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Would be nice although I would worry they would start changing things. Nothing about the story or characters needs to change. Also if they would modernize the combat system as RPG combat now is different to what it was then.


It would be nice for some 3 dimensional characters in Disney's 'cannon', still would prefer KOTOR2, that needs to be finished, although that would require the genius of Chris Avellone and Obsidian.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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sgy0003 said:
If KOTOR was to be remastered, it should have better combat, better UI, better romance (let's be honest KOTOR romance sucks in today's standards), and of course better graphics.
I wuv me some BioWare, but "should" is a key word in that sentence; I came to find a lot to enjoy in DA:I, but its combat is awful, and it reads like a [scary] Mission mission statement as to their design philosophy going forward.

I've no desire to see KotOR remastered or tampered with (it's of its time - the past, and I'm fine with leaving it there. Malik was always a fairly naff villain, too. he couldn't go ten seconds without a sneering, cackling pantomime laugh), but I would love to see a new SP KotOR. Hell, when I first fired Mass Effect up I couldn't help but wonder how a new Star Wars game would look and play with current gen tech. I'd always wanted KotOR 3, not a new property.

Saelune said:
The most logical thing for Bioware to do is a KotoR reboot that re-canonizes Revan's story.
Yeah, if BioWare must go back to Star Wars then that's probably what I'd like to see.

However, with what's probably going to be a new ME trilogy, and DA still going, I've no idea where they could find the time - not to mention manpower and resources - to craft a SW RPG in the next few years.
 

Bobular

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Saelune said:
The most logical thing for Bioware to do is a KotoR reboot that re-canonizes Revan's story.
The problem with that is they either keep the twist the same, which would be boring, or they change the twist which would upset the fans, including me.
 

Saelune

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Bobular said:
Saelune said:
The most logical thing for Bioware to do is a KotoR reboot that re-canonizes Revan's story.
The problem with that is they either keep the twist the same, which would be boring, or they change the twist which would upset the fans, including me.
Why? If they keep it the same, then its a remake, which works fine for new people, but then you can just enjoy it as such. I never had any issue with the remakes of Pok?mon being faithful.

If they change it, then you can get a new yet familiar experience. Its Disney's fault for de-canonizing everything anyways, not Bioware. If not for that, Id just want a Kotor 3 to continue from 1 and 2.

Plus they could fix stuff like...Taris. Seriously fuck that planet.
 

meiam

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I think that's a fine idea in concept, I was quite late to playing Kotor 1 (maybe 5 year after it release) and it already felt dated at that point. But the execution would be very difficult.

How exactly would they change things exactly? like someone pointed out, DA:I combat is easily the worse of the series despite being the most recent one, so just because lots of time passed doesn't mean they'll be able to make a good combat. And should they keep it turned based, heavily DnD inspire or go for more action type (ie ME1 to ME2 transition)? What about the leveling process? Should every build be balance (ie playing the game as a non force user), or should they reduce the number skill? You might think less skill means less interesting decision, but I'd argue that ME2 had just as much interesting choice as ME1 did and ME3 far more than ME1 despite less skill.

Same for story, there's a real risk that they'll just end up milking every aspect to death (just look at how present HK-47 is in SWTOR for no other reason than people liked him in KOTOR so of course they want more of him).

Honestly a lot come down to bioware just not being that great of a company anymore. imo I'd be more interested if Obsidian was in charge of the remake than bioware (hell I'd be more interested if another branch of EA did it than bioware itself).
 

Redryhno

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The Purple Grape said:
It would be nice for some 3 dimensional characters in Disney's 'cannon', still would prefer KOTOR2, that needs to be finished, although that would require the genius of Chris Avellone and Obsidian.
Yeah, I really don't understand what people like so much about Kotor1. In pretty much every aspect, Kotor2 is the superior game, since Bioware can't seem to realize that if you make the thief class mandatory for loot and money, then you've failed in some respect(like seriously, this is a problem they have throughout their games outside of BG2), the ability to actually open doors without sitting there waiting for ten turns to hit it for 1 hp out of a hundred, and money actually being worth getting.

I mean, not to say it's a bad game, but if we're going to be asking for remasters, Kotor2 has more actual mechanics that allow you to do more(other than the buffing system being somewhat difficult to gauge, but that's a problem with both).
 

Redryhno

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Chessrook44 said:
Redryhno said:
In pretty much every aspect, Kotor2 is the superior game...
KOTOR 1 was actually finished.
Didn't they release the cut content not that long ago? Last I heard that pretty much all that was planned to be in the game.
 

The Madman

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Redryhno said:
Didn't they release the cut content not that long ago? Last I heard that pretty much all that was planned to be in the game.
The Restored Content Mod cleans up a lot of Kotor 2, including its messy ending, but there are still planned elements of the game which never made the cut and couldn't be restored for various reasons. For example the planet M4-78EP which had a pretty important role in the story but which was cut for time by the developers with few assets ever actually finished, leaving modders almost nothing to work with in terms of re-implementing it and finishing save for the knowledge of what it was supposed to have been.

Of course now there's also a mod that implements a version of M4-78EP, made almost entirely by modders with new assets and voice work based on the loose script and details available, but if I'm totally honest I didn't really like it much when I tried the mod... Admittedly that was a few years ago so it could be much improved since then, I honestly don't know.
 

Chessrook44

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Redryhno said:
Chessrook44 said:
Redryhno said:
In pretty much every aspect, Kotor2 is the superior game...
KOTOR 1 was actually finished.
Didn't they release the cut content not that long ago? Last I heard that pretty much all that was planned to be in the game.
I was under the impression that was a fan-released mod, not officially done by the company.
 

votemarvel

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Personally I would say that the combat still holds up well today but then again I like that style of combat. Not every game needs to go real time in its combat mechanics.

The graphics aren't terrible but I certainly wouldn't mind a polish to them.

Honestly what stops me from playing the game more often is the god awful AI path finding. It drives me wild to this day to reach the exit to an area only to find you can't leave because your team-mates can't work out how to walk around a table half the level back.

So yes, a HD polish to the graphics and a BIG improvement to the pathfinding, I know I'd be buying it.
 

Saelune

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Chessrook44 said:
Redryhno said:
Chessrook44 said:
Redryhno said:
In pretty much every aspect, Kotor2 is the superior game...
KOTOR 1 was actually finished.
Didn't they release the cut content not that long ago? Last I heard that pretty much all that was planned to be in the game.
I was under the impression that was a fan-released mod, not officially done by the company.
There was a fan released mod that took all the content in the game files that had been cut or unfinished, and salvaged what they could, which was a lot. Many of the devs did applaud it though.

I haven't actually experienced it yet though, but considering I hate mods and its the only mod I have...

And finished or not, I actually really enjoyed 2, but I never got past Taris in 1, so who knows how I would feel if I got past it.

*has a grudge against Taris*
 

Recusant

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Okay, maybe you folks can help me here; I'm just not seeing it. How can a game "age poorly"? Games don't age at all. The experience a game provides you doesn't change one bit from one year (or decade) to the next; it still plays through just the same (barring the possibility of taking different actions, of course). Your memories of a game can prove incorrect, too, but that's on you, not the game. So what can actually change? What ages? What is there that you can change that's worth the effort without radically altering the kind of game that it is?
 

Saelune

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Recusant said:
Okay, maybe you folks can help me here; I'm just not seeing it. How can a game "age poorly"? Games don't age at all. The experience a game provides you doesn't change one bit from one year (or decade) to the next; it still plays through just the same (barring the possibility of taking different actions, of course). Your memories of a game can prove incorrect, too, but that's on you, not the game. So what can actually change? What ages? What is there that you can change that's worth the effort without radically altering the kind of game that it is?
A game that "ages well" is still enjoyable today by people not used to it. That the gameplay and sometimes graphics don't impede enjoyment of the game to newer people to the point of making it hard to play.

A game that "ages poorly" is the opposite. Perhaps in its day it was enjoyable, but isn't so great by today's standards.

Not that I think KotoR aged badly though. Generally more complex games age worse than simpler ones. The original Super Mario Bros is still fun. Duck Hunt perhaps not so much.
 

Recusant

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Saelune said:
Recusant said:
Okay, maybe you folks can help me here; I'm just not seeing it. How can a game "age poorly"? Games don't age at all. The experience a game provides you doesn't change one bit from one year (or decade) to the next; it still plays through just the same (barring the possibility of taking different actions, of course). Your memories of a game can prove incorrect, too, but that's on you, not the game. So what can actually change? What ages? What is there that you can change that's worth the effort without radically altering the kind of game that it is?
A game that "ages well" is still enjoyable today by people not used to it. That the gameplay and sometimes graphics don't impede enjoyment of the game to newer people to the point of making it hard to play.

A game that "ages poorly" is the opposite. Perhaps in its day it was enjoyable, but isn't so great by today's standards.

Not that I think KotoR aged badly though. Generally more complex games age worse than simpler ones. The original Super Mario Bros is still fun. Duck Hunt perhaps not so much.
That would only work if everyone enjoyed the same things. Mechanics and game systems go in and out of fashion, but they almost never vanish entirely, and on the rare occasion that they do, they can always return later. Dwarf Fortress brought many old systems to the fore for people who'd never encountered them before, and also essentially created a new sub-genre; at the beginning, everyone was unused to it, and was by definition a new player. The barrier to entry started high and has really only gotten higher; has the game "aged poorly"? Of course not; it's just not especially accessible to a newcomer.

And that's just accessibility. "Enjoyable" is completely subjective. Your typical Paradox player is going to enjoy radically different things than your typical EA player, whose tastes in turn differ radically from your typical Zynga player. Now, graphics do change. That's definitely true. And it's pretty much all in one direction; things do keep getting better on that front. Sound engineering, too, keeps improving- Thief SCC showed us that those're not universal things, but it's pretty close. But that's not a function of the game, but of the player. If "old and sometimes difficult to interpret" meant "bad", no one would read Shakespeare. And as to gameplay being impeded by a game's systems, show me one example (other than Dark Souls) where that can't be immediately resolved by reading the manual.

So aside from maintaining uniformity, you haven't answered my question. What changes? What ages?
 

Joccaren

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Recusant said:
That would only work if everyone enjoyed the same things. Mechanics and game systems go in and out of fashion, but they almost never vanish entirely, and on the rare occasion that they do, they can always return later. Dwarf Fortress brought many old systems to the fore for people who'd never encountered them before, and also essentially created a new sub-genre; at the beginning, everyone was unused to it, and was by definition a new player. The barrier to entry started high and has really only gotten higher; has the game "aged poorly"? Of course not; it's just not especially accessible to a newcomer.

And that's just accessibility. "Enjoyable" is completely subjective. Your typical Paradox player is going to enjoy radically different things than your typical EA player, whose tastes in turn differ radically from your typical Zynga player. Now, graphics do change. That's definitely true. And it's pretty much all in one direction; things do keep getting better on that front. Sound engineering, too, keeps improving- Thief SCC showed us that those're not universal things, but it's pretty close. But that's not a function of the game, but of the player. If "old and sometimes difficult to interpret" meant "bad", no one would read Shakespeare. And as to gameplay being impeded by a game's systems, show me one example (other than Dark Souls) where that can't be immediately resolved by reading the manual.

So aside from maintaining uniformity, you haven't answered my question. What changes? What ages?
Eeeeh, not quite. Much as some may hate to admit it, things have progressed greatly in the last couple decades. 2D to 3D graphics transition, UI improvements, sound improvements, gameplay improvements... A lot of stuff has gotten a lot better.

2D to 3D graphics may at first sound like preference, but tell me where the Doom's of this generation are. Those games that kind of tried to be 3D walking simulator shooting things, but were 2D as no 3D graphics existed. That aspect of those games aged poorly.

While the old stylised sounds can be somewhat endearing, modern recreations of those same sounds often sound better, with a higher audio quality. We are also simply able to make a wider variety of sounds. Sure, Pacman sounds in early shooters may have worked because they were all there was, but put them in a modern one and we just have much higher expectations for them, and some of the older games could actually have benefited from more modern music, and thus their soundtrack has aged poorly.

Interface is easy. Hotkeys, proper scaling, better layout, easier controls, more unified controls... Things have just gotten far, far, far better.

Gameplay is kind of mixed with interface, where some just obtuse things have been properly streamlined to be more enjoyable and easier to perform, without at all changing the mechanics. The other half of it is just things that have become, well, better with time, regardless of taste. Some of the Quake games and Unreal Tournament actually hold up pretty well, and are still played today. Others... The gameplay just wasn't well made, and they're just not enjoyable to play these days.

And, as with anything, Aging well or Aging poorly is always in comparison to everything around it based on what is popularly perceived as good or bad. Why are wrinkles early on aging poorly? What if I like wrinkles? Why isn't it aging well?
As for the direct question of what is aging, the medium. As the medium of gaming grows older, we discover new techniques within it, develop new gameplay methods, new technologies, new ideas, and a lot of them get created. Some stand the test of time. For example, there's a Dune RTS game. Sure, its interface and graphics are fairly... Eh, but its gameplay has probably aged pretty alright. What's one way to tell? It essentially defined the RTS genre to this very day, with base building, resource extraction, and everything else we expect from our Age of Empires and Starcrafts. Same goes for games like the old Quake's, Doom's and otherwise. Their gameplay is often still enjoyable today, as many of the tenets of today's gameplay in those genres, is based upon the foundation created by those games. Some games have had interfaces that change the way we played those games in general, and their interfaces age well, as we still use largely the same ones today. Others didn't age so well, and don't function in nearly as enjoyable a way as we do today.

I mean honestly, most of your arguments against games aging here, could be made about people aging. I mean, wrinkles and arthritis and disease and deafness and such. That's not aging, that's just disabilities. People are born with them all the time.
Beauty and looks are entirely subjective, as are things like maturity and intelligence or wisdom. What actually ages with a human being? Even hormones are manipulatable outside of aging.
If we're looking at things that are purely unique to being old, probably one of the only ones is having travelled around the sun multiple times. Just because children are born with disabilities commonly seen in the elderly, does not mean the elderly haven't aged. Likewise, games being made with obtuse interfaces and without the advances the medium has made does not mean those techniques aren't aged, or the games that were previously made that used them.

Outside all that, I mean, come on. You understand what the phrase is referring to, and it makes sense - mechanics or other aspects of a game that existed several years ago [and are thus old mechanics/aspects, or have 'aged' or have an 'age', which literally is just how long something has been around], that are no longer seen as enjoyable or desirable today [Hence the 'poorly' part, or if they've aged well those aspects are still popular or in demand, or seen as good]. About the hardest part of it is that it treats the game as a sum of its parts, so games that have aged poorly have predominantly poorly aged aspects, while games that have aged well have predominantly well-aged aspects. Nitpicking that the age of a game doesn't actually change how it functions, kind of ignores the point. Its the most straight forward way of talking about mechanics or aspects that were good and enjoyable in their day, but no longer are. Part of that is up to taste, but so is aging poorly/well in people. Has George Clooney aged well? Some would say yes. Others would say no. Welcome to the whole "Poorly", "Well" subjective debate that is true of literally everything you will ever talk about. Pointing out it applies here doesn't really prove or disprove anything, it just seems like making a point for the sake of making a point.