Am I being gaslighted?

[The Almighty Aardvark]

So, I was reading through the creepyPMs subreddit, when I stumbled upon people talking about gaslighting. For those who don't know what it is, the wikipedia page on it gives a pretty good description. I've been passingly aware of the term for a while, but it was only after hearing people talk about their experiences with it that my stomach dropped as some of it sounded a little too close to home. It's not that I haven't been aware that something has been wrong, something is, but I haven't had a name to put to it.

There seems to be a pattern of my girlfriend recontextualizing or reframing things that she's done in a way that is more favorable to her when I bring them up. I'll often be criticized for misinterpreting her actions. Things that came across completely seriously will be referred to as jokes sometime later in the conversation after I call her out on them, and very frequently when I bring up something as a problem that bothers me, things will somehow get twisted around where she's the victim and I end up apologizing to her and dropping it. Things like her getting hurt over me insinuating that she'd do something to hurt me, or that she was being insensitive. Regardless, I always feel like the bad guy when I bring up a problem of mine, and it's had the result that I'll just not mention them.

This whole thing has been really taxing on me, and brought me to a bit of hysteria one of the last times where I brought it up feeling like I either must be crazy, or she keeps recontextualizing things so that my problems are all just "misunderstandings", such as me not realizing that she's joking (in situations where she was clearly not). It's impacted on how I act when we talk about these things too. I've become a bit neurotic about remembering exact details of conversation so that she can't backpedal, which has helped a bit and made me feel a bit more secure in my perceptions. Still, she has a better memory than me of events, and a number of past events I'm a little worried that I've forgotten enough about them that I can't argue my side anymore.

She's mentioned before that she's a bit of a compulsive liar, in that she'll lie about small things that there's little reason to lie about. I know where this comes from, she lives with a family where the slightest step out of bounds will get her shouted at. At home, I see her doing this all the time, with little things like hiding who she's hanging out with (Because her mother doesn't approve of them, and will get very passive aggressive if she finds out she's hanging out with them). It's just become easier for her to lie about things than have to fight about them and kick up a fuss. Which is where I feel like it becomes relevant with me here. I don't really catch her lying to me often, besides these recontextualizations, but I still wouldn't be surprised if she did it.

We've been together for a number of years now, and there's a number of things about her that I really like about her. We can talk for hours on end, we've got similar interests, and she can be a very sweet person and she's got a great sense of humor. That said, we still have our fair share of problems, and this is probably the one that is grating on me the most. I don't know how to address it, because I know how bringing it up will end. She gets annoyed when I bring up problems or talk about feelings, and it either ends with her denying the problem, or becoming the victim. Yeah, I'm aware of how bad that sounds.

I don't want to paint this as being a horrible situation, or her as being a terrible person, because she's really not. I really like her, but I really don't like this. If this is something she's doing, I don't think it's deliberate, I think it's something that she's just grown so accustomed to doing that she doesn't think about it.

Anyways, I kind of just wanted to get that off my chest. I don't want to talk to friends or family about this, because I don't want it to affect their opinion on her if I decide it's something I can overlook. So this has been something I've just been bottling up inside for quite a while. Is this gaslighting (even if to a small degree)? What do you think I should do?

 

[Phasmal]

In answer to your thread question: yes. Yes you are. And not exactly to a small degree either.

I'm not the best at advice, but I'll give this ago. First of all, hurtful things that later are referred to as "jokes" don't make them less hurtful. I would recommend initially when the thing is said to say something like "Is that supposed to be a joke? Because I don't think it's funny.". Normally when you try something like this you'll get a bit of push back about how you can't take a joke or that you don't have a sense of humour. Shut that shit down with something along the lines of "Well now you know that I don't find [X] funny, so I don't want you to say that again" or "If you know that I find something not funny and hurtful, what is the purpose of doing it?"

Secondly, as far as spinning arguments to make herself a victim, that's a pretty bad thing to do. Try to do a lot of "I feel-" statements, and if you think you're straying off topic try and reassert yourself like "We still need a resolution for [x]". Try talking openly about your communication issues, making it clear it's not something you want to fight about, you just want changed.

It is a bit weird that your girlfriend openly admits to lying. I get if she lives at home with disapproving parents that she isn't able to be honest with them, but there's a difference between hiding the truth to avoid being yelled at and lying about meaningless things for the hell of it. Being honest is very important in relationships, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that.

I dunno, dude. It's all a matter of how much you can put up with. I've had a gaslighting boyfriend in the past. Had. That shit is exhausting. And it took me way too long to leave because we'd been together for a long time, so I felt like I'd already sunk so much time into the relationship that I really didn't want to see it fail.
I would say that not being able to talk to family and friends about it is a little bit of a warning sign. If she didn't want her shitty behaviour to impact on your family and friends impression of her, she shouldn't be doing shitty things. I'm not saying air your dirty laundry to everyone, but feeling like you can't talk to anyone about your problems is a suffocating place to be in.
Only you can say when enough is enough.

Hope it works out, in whatever direction.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

*snip*

I get the idea behind that strategy, but most of these things would be fine if they were just jokes. Often it's the difference between her being controlling, and her parodying being someone being controlling. The joke would be fine, seriously really isn't, particularly when it seems like it's being retconned into a joke.

We have tried talking openly about at least part of this, with limited success. None of the gaslighting, because I don't think she'd take well to me accusing her of lying, but I talked about how I feel like every time I bring up a problem I end up apologizing or drop it, and it never felt like there was any resolution. It ended with her being quite angry with me, but acknowledging that I don't need to justify my feelings. I was hoping for better, but it was better than things had been in the past so I settled for that with the hope it'd at least make her think about it. There haven't been any substantial changes since then though.

It's a little weird, but she brought the lying over inconsequential things up in the context of it being a problem she knows she has. There seemed to be the tacit implication that it happens with me too, but I've never really caught her in it, and I'm not sure she'd admit it if I had. There's been a couple times I pressed when things didn't add up, and she pushed back pretty hard. I really do understand where it comes from though, and I can understand it being a hard habit to turn on and off on command. She's been accused by her mother of trying to sabotage her for accidentally forgetting to put some clothes in the laundry.

Yeah, it's getting pretty exhausting. More than anything because whenever it happens again, I feel like all of my past, unresolved discontentment over it gets dragged up. It doesn't happen all that often, though that's at least partially because I'm holding back my problems because of it. So along with this problem not getting solved, it's creating a backlog of other problems that don't even get addressed.

The friends and family thing is definitely a warning sign, especially the more I dig into the reasons why I don't want to tell them. I've got this worry if I confide in them they'll think that the thing she's doing are messed up, and whenever I bring her over, their interactions will be filtered through that knowledge. If things keep on going, I want them to think positively of her.

 

[Phasmal]

I get the idea behind that strategy, but most of these things would be fine if they were just jokes. Often it's the difference between her being controlling, and her parodying being someone being controlling. The joke would be fine, seriously really isn't, particularly when it seems like it's being retconned into a joke.

Shit dude, that's no good. That's something I sadly have experience in too. Having to put up with shit like "Oh I was just kidding when I said you couldn't see friends while wearing that shirt". Once again, that shit needs to be shut down. If she tries to reframe it as a joke. Doesn't matter. Not funny. Don't do it.
Controlling behaviour isn't funny, joke or no. I'd raise an eyebrow pretty fuckin' far if my boyfriend even pretended to be controlling.

We have tried talking openly about at least part of this, with limited success. None of the gaslighting, because I don't think she'd take well to me accusing her of lying, but I talked about how I feel like every time I bring up a problem I end up apologizing or drop it, and it never felt like there was any resolution. It ended with her being quite angry with me, but acknowledging that I don't need to justify my feelings. I was hoping for better, but it was better than things had been in the past so I settled for that with the hope it'd at least make her think about it. There haven't been any substantial changes since then though.

That's a real shame. You can try and work on your communication, make sure that you're doing the right things, but at the end of the day- a relationship is a two-way street. You have to ask yourself how long you're gonna be willing to fight just to have your concerns not dismissed or reframed as something you did to them.
Personally I got to the point where I was so tired of being run circles around in arguing, I just sort of thought "Even if everything you're saying is true, and all of our problems are my fault, I don't fucking care any more".

It's a little weird, but she brought the lying over inconsequential things up in the context of it being a problem she knows she has. There seemed to be the tacit implication that it happens with me too, but I've never really caught her in it, and I'm not sure she'd admit it if I had. There's been a couple times I pressed when things didn't add up, and she pushed back pretty hard. I really do understand where it comes from though, and I can understand it being a hard habit to turn on and off on command. She's been accused by her mother of trying to sabotage her for accidentally forgetting to put some clothes in the laundry.

Absolutely, I'm not trying to downplay that she's got a messed up family, but a lot of people have messed up families. That's what therapy and self help are for (and they're great!). It's not a get-out-of-being-questioned-over-your-lying free card.

Yeah, it's getting pretty exhausting. More than anything because whenever it happens again, I feel like all of my past, unresolved discontentment over it gets dragged up. It doesn't happen all that often, though that's at least partially because I'm holding back my problems because of it. So along with this problem not getting solved, it's creating a backlog of other problems that don't even get addressed.

Yes, if you're getting the feeling that you can't talk about something that upsets you because you know there's no point, it'll just get turned around on you, that's not a good sign.

The friends and family thing is definitely a warning sign, especially the more I dig into the reasons why I don't want to tell them. I've got this worry if I confide in them they'll think that the thing she's doing are messed up, and whenever I bring her over, their interactions will be filtered through that knowledge. If things keep on going, I want them to think positively of her.

Try and not think too far ahead of yourself. Yeah you want people to like her, but it's more important that you like her, and that she's not making you feel shitty about yourself on a regular basis.
I'm not trying to say what you should do with your relationship one way or the other, but at the end of the day, take care of yourself. There's no award for sticking around and letting someone make you miserable, believe you me. Don't get stuck in the mindset that you must be happy in your relationship just because you're not miserable 100% of the time.

Spoiler: Link that might be helpful

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/10/relationship-toxic/

 

[manic_depressive13]

Yeah this is really standard abusive stuff - straight from the handbook. Look, most abusers have tough lives, and they all have redeeming qualities. That doesn't change that your girlfriend would rather get offended and angry when you raise a grievance than show you the respect of having an honest discussion. She is trying to scare you out of criticising her and it's working. Is that really how you want to live your life? Wouldn't you rather find someone who is sweet and funny and, you know, doesn't do that? Because you can.

You can.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Before we leap to accusations of abuse: Have you ever been afraid of her?

While any sort of controlling behaviour is no joke because it indicates the potential for abuse down the line, there's a huge difference between coercive control, which is abusive and in some cases illegal, and non-coercive control, which is annoying and not a sign of a healthy relationship but generally isn't something to be immediately concerned about. If you feel, by this measure, that this is an abusive situation, if she does things which you are genuinely frightened of her (and that includes being frightened for her, it's common for people to threaten to hurt themselves as a form of coercive control) then my advice is very simply to get out. Like, straight away, do not fuck around. But I can't make that call based on what you've said.

Assuming there is no coercion here, it seems like you have a fairly strong idea of what the problem is, and it sounds plausible to me. Her family situation has clearly made it difficult for her to trust people or be open about her own perceived failings because she fears arbitrary punishment. It may be that you can get over this by using plenty of reassurance, i.e. try to avoid confrontations becoming a case of you "telling her off", because it's obvious that's not helping and only causes her to entrench deeper (which is quite an instinctive thing when you've grown up in that kind of environment, in my experience - people often aren't consciously aware of it). At the same time, though, it's important that you are strong and immediate in your reactions to things. If she says something you find controlling, try facing it in that moment by (calmly) explaining that it wasn't a nice thing to say. Frame everything in terms of yourself, i.e. "I want [to feel free to do X]" or "I need [to know that you'll only say stuff like that when you're serious]", not "you shouldn't [be so controlling]" or "you did [lie to me, and I have proof]". It is up to you to know that you are not being the bad guy, which sounds like an issue of your self confidence more than anything else. You are literally 50% of this relationship, so if something is making you upset you need to trust that it is serious.

It's going to be hard partly because you have tolerated this in the past, and thus now that you're reacting to it it comes across as a sudden change in your behaviour. Everyone gets unnerved by changes in their partner's behaviour, so expect some negative reaction from her. If you have confidence in yourself, this shouldn't frighten you too much. If it helps, think of it this way - the issue is that she doesn't trust you, so you have to be a trustworthy person. Part of the way you demonstrate that you are a trustworthy person is by being able to look after yourself, and part of looking after yourself is not tolerating things that aren't working for you. It's going to be hard in the short term, but long term you are trying to break some very destructive habits which are eating away at your relationship.

 

[manic_depressive13]

-

Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean he shouldn't be immediately concerned. Why does it matter whether physical harm is being threatened to herself or others? We are discussing whether he should stay with her, not whether she should be arrested.

She has apparently demonstrated repeatedly that her desire not to feel criticised is far more important to her than whether she is hurting her partner with her words or actions. I think it's absurd to blame the OP for not being trustworthy enough, and put the onus on him to fix her by teaching her to trust. He can't undo years of abuse. If she is casually mentioning that she lies for no reason, not as something she needs to fix but just as something that she does, there is every chance that she doesn't see the need to change. It's important to feel like you can raise grievances in a relationship and have them be duly considered, not punished by being made to feel like a terrible person for daring to say anything at all.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Before I respond, I just want to note that there is not a general problem of her being controlling. I gave that as an example, since that was the most recent thing this came up over, and while I objected to it because it was controlling, there was at least some justification for her to be bothered if I saw the person she told me I couldn't see (which is why I wouldn't have in the first place). Being controlling is a really hot topic for her though, she hates the idea of being controlling so much that even when she might be slightly it really bothers her for it to be suggested that she could be controlling.

Before we leap to accusations of abuse: Have you ever been afraid of her?

I have not. She's not the most emotionally stable person, particularly not after she had a very bad year early in our relationship, and I have worried about her harming herself, though it's not through any sort of emotional blackmail on her part. She's never used it as a method of control.

Assuming there is no coercion here, it seems like you have a fairly strong idea of what the problem is, and it sounds plausible to me. Her family situation has clearly made it difficult for her to trust people or be open about her own perceived failings because she fears arbitrary punishment. It may be that you can get over this by using plenty of reassurance, i.e. try to avoid confrontations becoming a case of you "telling her off", because it's obvious that's not helping and only causes her to entrench deeper (which is quite an instinctive thing when you've grown up in that kind of environment, in my experience - people often aren't consciously aware of it). At the same time, though, it's important that you are strong and immediate in your reactions to things. If she says something you find controlling, try facing it in that moment by (calmly) explaining that it wasn't a nice thing to say. Frame everything in terms of yourself, i.e. "I want [to feel free to do X]" or "I need [to know that you'll only say stuff like that when you're serious]", not "you shouldn't [be so controlling]" or "you did [lie to me, and I have proof]". It is up to you to know that you are not being the bad guy, which sounds like an issue of your self confidence more than anything else. You are literally 50% of this relationship, so if something is making you upset you need to trust that it is serious.

She's mentioned before that it comes across as I'm attacking her when I tell her about an issue I have, and since then I've really tried not to avoid anything that'd make it seem like an attack. I think you have a good idea with framing things in terms of myself, instead of her, to try and make it less accusatory.

It's going to be hard partly because you have tolerated this in the past, and thus now that you're reacting to it it comes across as a sudden change in your behaviour. Everyone gets unnerved by changes in their partner's behaviour, so expect some negative reaction from her. If you have confidence in yourself, this shouldn't frighten you too much. If it helps, think of it this way - the issue is that she doesn't trust you, so you have to be a trustworthy person. Part of the way you demonstrate that you are a trustworthy person is by being able to look after yourself, and part of looking after yourself is not tolerating things that aren't working for you. It's going to be hard in the short term, but long term you are trying to break some very destructive habits which are eating away at your relationship.

I made a fairly substantial breach of trust earlier in the relationship. It wasn't anything like cheating, but it did a lot to damage her trust in me, and it's only been after several years that the trust is close to being back to what it was at the beginning. There's not much more that I'd be able to do to make myself trustworthy, and honestly some of my friends have raised an eyebrow over some of what I've done already at least partially to regain trust. I also am really trying not to tolerating these things that I've stifled in the past, but it's not been getting the greatest reception.

Yeah this is really standard abusive stuff - straight from the handbook. Look, most abusers have tough lives, and they all have redeeming qualities. That doesn't change that your girlfriend would rather get offended and angry when you raise a grievance than show you the respect of having an honest discussion. She is trying to scare you out of criticising her and it's working. Is that really how you want to live your life? Wouldn't you rather find someone who is sweet and funny and, you know, doesn't do that? Because you can.

You can.

I wouldn't go as far to call it abusive, but I'm not going to disagree that it is bad for a relationship. I don't think it's being done in any sort of deliberate sense, with the intention of manipulation, but it does have the same kind of effect. I think it comes from insecurity more than anything else, given her self confidence and worth is on pretty shaky grounds.

I don't think it's all covered in self-esteem though, she used to hate it when I had short hair cuts, and she wouldn't hide how bad she thought I looked in short hair (Shorter than usual, which is still pretty long for most people). I told her that it bothered me when she'd keep bringing it up, because it made me feel unattractive, and she responded by refusing to say anything whatsoever about my hair afterwards, even when I asked for an opinion. Whatever her response is, it makes me regret bringing it up in the first place. At my most pessimistic I feel like some of it comes out of a desire to 'win'. And giving me what I want is conceding her position in some way, admitting that there was something she did wrong.

That's a real shame. You can try and work on your communication, make sure that you're doing the right things, but at the end of the day- a relationship is a two-way street. You have to ask yourself how long you're gonna be willing to fight just to have your concerns not dismissed or reframed as something you did to them.
Personally I got to the point where I was so tired of being run circles around in arguing, I just sort of thought "Even if everything you're saying is true, and all of our problems are my fault, I don't fucking care any more".

I've had similar thoughts as well. If I'm so deluded that all my problems are in my head, then this isn't going to work anyways. Particularly when I've been unable to justify to myself that all my problems as just being misunderstandings or being too sensitive.

Try and not think too far ahead of yourself. Yeah you want people to like her, but it's more important that you like her, and that she's not making you feel shitty about yourself on a regular basis.
I'm not trying to say what you should do with your relationship one way or the other, but at the end of the day, take care of yourself. There's no award for sticking around and letting someone make you miserable, believe you me. Don't get stuck in the mindset that you must be happy in your relationship just because you're not miserable 100% of the time.

I think you're right. Honestly, just talking about this here makes it feel a lot less insurmountable. I don't think it's worth my worries to try to just keep it bottled up inside. I need outside impressions, trying to work it all out in my own head is keeping me in a rut.

What makes this so hard is that most of the time it isn't miserable. Most of the time it's happy, some of the time it can be a little grating, and it's only miserable some of the time. It's just that the some of the time it's miserable is a bit of an important time for things to work out.

Thanks for linking that article, it was an interesting read. Thankfully I wouldn't really say that any of them fully apply to our relationship, but there are pieces of them that are at least partially applicable. I see a lot less friends (Though we started dating at the end of high school, so I'm pretty sure that a large part of it), occasionally I get made to feel guilty when I see do see them on the relatively infrequent occasions that I do. I'm a lot less outgoing than I used to be (As outgoing as I ever was being an introvert), and particularly when she's around I'm a lot more muted.

We're a lot better when we're on our own, but when other people get involved it can be a little more strained. I have a tendency to become a third wheel when she's with her friends, and I'm pretty sure that happens at least to an extent when around my friends as well. More than the usual third wheel too. I never brought this up to her how angry this made me, but she invited me to her graduation, then left me standing awkwardly around a room full of strangers while she talked back and forth between her various friends. When stumbled upon me again and noticed how uncomfortable I looked (And I was really trying not to look uncomfortable because I knew that would make people think poorly of her), she found one of her friends who was there with her boyfriend for me to talk to. Then left me. With one of her friends, who had spent the entire time with their boyfriend.

Yeah, things aren't as peachy when we're with other people.

I didn't bring it up to her because I was seriously questioning the relationship at that point, and when I felt better about the relationship it'd been long enough that it wouldn't have made sense bringing it up again.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I wouldn't go as far to call it abusive, but I'm not going to disagree that it is bad for a relationship. I don't think it's being done in any sort of deliberate sense, with the intention of manipulation, but it does have the same kind of effect.

I think it's a fallacy that abuse is done out of some cartoonishly evil desire to manipulate someone. Every abusive figure in my life has merely acted the way they felt entitled or justified acting. But yes, now that you've provided examples, I don't think the situation is necessarily abusive, which is the impression I got from the OP. However, it is abundantly clear that she believes her feelings trump yours every time. When you complain to someone and they swing unpleasantly in the opposite direction instead, like in the case with the haircut, as you've noted, that's not an honest attempt to address their behaviour. That's punishing you for making them feel criticised. There is no other reason to refuse to give an opinion when it is explicitly requested in this situation.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean he shouldn't be immediately concerned. Why does it matter whether physical harm is being threatened to herself or others? We are discussing whether he should stay with her, not whether she should be arrested.

I agree that legality is not the issue. In many jurisdictions, coercive control is not classed as a form of domestic abuse at all and is therefore legal, despite the work of campaigners to change this. However, I think it is worth preserving the distinctions between domestic abuse and relationship problems more broadly. What abuse describes is a pattern of control based on fear, it may be the fear of physical violence, it may be the fear of public humiliation, it may be the fear of financial destitution, it could be a very personal fear which someone is exploiting, but fear enables a whole different level of control and it's worth preserving the distinction, firstly, because everyone who has to deal with these situations in a professional capacity already does, and secondly because any ambiguity around the concept of abuse could prove deadly to people trapped in abusive situations.

She has apparently demonstrated repeatedly that her desire not to feel criticised is far more important to her than whether she is hurting her partner with her words or actions.

Sure, and that's pretty selfish. But selfishness is not necessarily abuse. People can be selfish in the context of normal relationships. In fact, when selfishness is mutual, I'd say it can be a very healthy basis for a relationship.

When it comes to assessing abuse, it's not enough to simply ask "is someone being mean", "is someone being unpleasant" or even, "is someone being violent". We also have to ask "is someone afraid", "is there a pattern of control". Abuse is defined as much by the impact it has on the victim as it is by the behaviour of the abuser. In many abusive situations, for example, both participants will use physical violence, but one of them might be using violence out of fear to try and defend themselves or preempt worse violence in the future while the other might be using violence to get their way or to relieve anger. That kind of context is important to know.

I think it's absurd to blame the OP for not being trustworthy enough, and put the onus on him to fix her by teaching her to trust.

Who is blaming anyone?

If I didn't think the OP was trustworthy, I would have actually said that. The issue at hand is not that the OP isn't trustworthy but that their partner, whether for good reasons or no reason at all, doesn't trust them. The problematic behaviour, the compulsive lying, the resentment at being caught or found out, the complete inability to take criticism all suggests that. Regardless of where it comes from or whether it's deserved or not (I would actually assume not) it seems like the way through, if there is one, is to try and fix that.

I made a fairly substantial breach of trust earlier in the relationship. It wasn't anything like cheating, but it did a lot to damage her trust in me, and it's only been after several years that the trust is close to being back to what it was at the beginning. There's not much more that I'd be able to do to make myself trustworthy, and honestly some of my friends have raised an eyebrow over some of what I've done already at least partially to regain trust. I also am really trying not to tolerating these things that I've stifled in the past, but it's not been getting the greatest reception

The important thing is that whatever happened in that regard is in the past now. Obviously, you can't do anything about the fallout or how it impacts her, and maybe that's having an impact on this situation or maybe not, it's hard to say. The key thing is that if you're going to build a relationship worth having then there comes a point where trust isn't optional, and however hard that is for her she will have to take a leap, otherwise this crap's just going to follow you.

What I mean I guess is not that you should set out on some epic quest to prove your general trustworthiness. In fact, I can't see that ending well. What I guess I mean is that she's clearly still living in the shadow of her parents, and that whole way of living where constantly hiding everything is necessary and being found out means arbitrary punishment and humiliation. The problem is, you're not her parents, you shouldn't ever have had to take on that role and the fact it's been pushed on you kind of sucks. I perhaps didn't make it clear, but I do believe you are in the right on this and I suspect you're not misreading the situation very much at all.

What I mean by building trust is to somehow convey that, when you have a problem with something, it's not because you're trying to keep her on some arbitrary straight and narrow or because you expect her to be perfect, but rather it's because something is making you miserable and you'd like her input on it as someone you trust and want to be as open as possible with. Mostly, that's just how you communicate (specifically, keeping everything focused on you, avoiding blame or anger, that kind of thing). As for any guilt about whatever happened in the past, probably best to just let that go. It seems like you've more than done your penance for that.

 

[manic_depressive13]

-

So if, I don't know, your uncle (repeatedly) threatens to kill you with the intention of intimidating and controlling you, it's not abusive unless you actually get scared? I would have thought that such behaviour is abusive regardless of how someone responds to it. Maybe I wouldn't say that you were abused, but I would say he was acting abusively. No?

And blame was the wrong word. Rather, I found it odd that you were encouraging the OP to adjust his behaviour to accomodate her when she is being a dick to him.

 

[Terminal Blue]

So if, I don't know, your uncle (repeatedly) threatens to kill you with the intention of intimidating and controlling you, it's not abusive unless you actually get scared?

Well, if someone is threatening to kill them, a rational person will usually get scared, unless, of course, there's more to this situation than meets the eye.

For example, if I'm routinely beating or threatening my uncle and he threatens to kill me in turn because he lives in constant fear of me and it's all he can do to try and persuade me to stop, it would be pretty disturbing to accuse him of abuse even if he was trying to intimidate me or influence my behaviour (to prevent me from hurting him). Or, let's say my uncle has dementia and isn't in control of his actions, but I don't feel seriously threatened by him because it's just momentary outbursts and I have the means to physically restrain him if it becomes a problem. Again, abuse is more than people doing bad things to each other, it's the pattern of control.

If someone is genuinely not afraid, if they know all the threats are empty, if they are in complete control over how much of the "abusive" behaviour they have to take, then that's a fundamentally different thing to coercive control. That's not to say it's nice to threaten people even if they know it doesn't mean anything, they'd be perfectly justified in cutting you out of their life, but they can still do that.. it's their choice, and that's what makes it different from abusive situations where that self-control is compromised by fear or dependency.

Rather, I found it odd that you were encouraging the OP to adjust his behaviour to accomodate her when she is being a dick to him.

Well, in a perfect world you wouldn't. In a perfect world, noone would ever be a dick to anyone. Sadly, we don't live in such a perfect world, we live in a real world where noone is perfect and people argue and fight and act selfishly. I'd imagine if we asked the OP's girlfriend what she thinks of the situation, she'd claim that the OP was being mean and accusing her of things or trying to make her feel bad, because if she didn't actually believe that then compromising and admitting mistakes wouldn't be such an issue.

When you grow up in an environment where the only way to "survive" or have any freedom is to deny and argue everything, which includes a lot of people who grew up in genuinely abusive families (although I don't think that is the case here), then it's very difficult to take personal criticism, even indirectly. It should be fairly obvious, I think, that the way to deal with those people is not to keep criticising them and hope eventually they just break down, but rather to try and present criticism not as an objective assessment of how that person is wrong, or how terrible and abusive they are, or how they're being a total dick and most people would agree, but rather as grounded in subjective desire or need. Explaining to someone what you need to be happy or what they can do to make you happy is much easier to hear than explaining to someone that they're wrong and they're a bad person.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I think it's a fallacy that abuse is done out of some cartoonishly evil desire to manipulate someone. Every abusive figure in my life has merely acted the way they felt entitled or justified acting.

That's a miscommunication on my part, that second sentence wasn't intended to say why it isn't abuse, just to help characterize it. I agree, people who do bad things are rarely cartoonishly evil, and believe what they're doing is wrong. That being said, I thought it was important to clarify I don't think she's doing this in a deliberate attempt at manipulation.

I'm not sure if I'd say it as harshly as she believes her feelings trump mine, there are a number of situations where there seems to be different standards being held. There's been a number of occasions where she's criticized things I've done and I've came around to agree that I was in the wrong, but whenever I suggest that she has, she pushes back very hard against it, being offended over how I could suggest that she's an uncaring or insensitive person. She will use the fact that she's a caring person as a defense over her doing something wrong, no matter how hard I try to say that doing something wrong doesn't make you a bad person. It feels like I'm acknowledged as being capable of being an asshole, and she can presume that I do things wrong, but it's horrible for me to do the same for her. It feels like an attack on my character.

In fact, this came up earlier today. 4 years ago, I told her that she was being a bit of an ass to one of our friends while we were playing D&D. She'd single him out, and be dismissive or judgmental of everything he did. Not just my own observation either, it was making other people uncomfortable as well. I found out today that she's still stewing over this.

One time I criticized her for treating a guy unfairly 4 years ago is still eating at her, and in that time there's been plenty of occasions where it's acceptable to criticize me. I don't know what to do with that.

*snip*

This is more or less what I've been trying to do, though you've made some good suggestions on how to do it better. I really don't know though, I feel like I've been waiting for a change to occur for quite a while in the relationship. In fact I'm a bit worried that things might be getting worse.

*deleted in edit*

EDIT:

For the record, she never screams at me or threatens me with anything, and I don't consider our relationship nearly to the level of bad as theirs.

Fuck, I really don't know what to do. I really want to make things work, but it's getting exhausting, and I find I'm biting my tongue more and more over things I don't agree with. I love her, and I really care for her, and I feel like there's a large part of me that doesn't want to end it because it makes me horrible to think of how she'd feel if I did. It's hard to separate that out and really evaluate if I want this relationship for my own sake.

EDIT 2:

I feel like I've gone a little bit inappropriately deep into details of her own life. I don't think it's fair to share those, so I'm going to get rid of them. That's her life, and it's not my place to share the details.

 

[renegade7]

I think strictly speaking "gaslighting" refers to some deliberate attempt at controlling a person by attacking their own ability to trust themselves, rather than just being immature and unwilling to own up to one's own mistakes. Either way, the effect is the same, in that your confidence in yourself is shaken and your own experiences are ignored, trivialized, or mocked in favor of her own selfish need to constantly paint herself in a positive light.

You said yourself that she's admitted to having a problem with lying. What you are describing is exactly the kind of harm that liars tend to cause.

Also, insulting you and then brushing it off later as "just a joke" is the standard behavior of the playground bully when confronted. That is not the behavior of a mature adult who is just having fun, and it's certainly not something you should have to tolerate from your girlfriend.

Also:

I made a fairly substantial breach of trust earlier in the relationship. It wasn't anything like cheating, but it did a lot to damage her trust in me, and it's only been after several years that the trust is close to being back to what it was at the beginning.

Everyone screws up in a relationship once in a while. It's normal. Being angry for a short period would be a normal response on her part. Being angry about it for years is not only not normal but also just not the behavior of a mentally stable person. A normal person should not be putting you in the doghouse for years over a mistake you made a long time ago.

In fact, this came up earlier today. 4 years ago, I told her that she was being a bit of an ass to one of our friends while we were playing D&D. She'd single him out, and be dismissive or judgmental of everything he did. Not just my own observation either, it was making other people uncomfortable as well. I found out today that she's still stewing over this.

Let me just ask you something. Can you think of any time in your life where you've been angry at someone for almost half a decade for criticizing you once?

I really like her, but I really don't like this.

I'm not going to just straight out tell you to dump her, but I feel like I have to point out that there are plenty of fantastic women out there who can be everything that this girl has been to you who won't lie to you, put you down, and hold petty grudges at you over things that happened years ago.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

I don't have a lot of good opinion when it comes to the issue of gaslighting, and that sort of thing. But I can only offer one bit of advice to you. And I do this because I come from experience of knowing someone who had a lot of issues.

It's better to go for someone who doesn't have intense levels of baggage. I'm not saying you should dump her or anything though. Someone having baggage shouldn't dismiss them from being worth someone's time, that's not fair at all. I am merely saying that if her family is shit (And will get mad at her due to them not liking someone, which might end up putting you in the fire if it hasn't happened already), and she has some really, really bad habits that hurt you and feel abusive, it's probably worth thinking about how you wanna continue on with the relationship, if at all entirely.

I knew someone that was really nice and fun to talk to when he was in a good mood. But he had a horrible home life, and he had some nasty habits and learned to have a really good silver tongue to keep people around him, and I fell into his trap for years. I know it wasn't his fault, there was a lot of messed up stuff happening and he didn't have the needed tools to help keep him calm. But I tell you... That was a very one sided relationship by the end. Mine sounds like a worse case than yours, but I want you to be cautious about people who have bad habits that come from their family being absolute shitheads. Cause those are gonna be the hard parts of the relationship. Having a GF/BF that has a more stable and less controlling family is always gonna help matters, so you don't have to claw your way up from the bottom of a 15,000 foot mountain instead of a 5,000 foot one.

Oh, and trust and honesty is very, VERY important to a relationship. I did one small thing completely by accident with this guy, and he never, ever trusted me fully again. He said he did, but his actions were total opposite to what he told me. But if you can work this out, if you can get her help, and her family won't be a giant issue... And you think she's worth going through that entire effort, then more power to you. Because despite such flaws, these kinds of people can be the gems of the world.

Just be careful though. And as others have said... This might be a purely uphill battle that won't be worth it. Believe me when I say this. It may take awhile, but there's always someone else. Nobody just gets that one person and nobody else comes by ever again. Consider your options, and weigh your opinions. But most of all, look into your heart (Cheesy Kingdom Hearts like lines, WOO!) and see how you feel about it. If she's worth trying to help get what she needs to not be this way, and will be able to help keep you happy, then I don't see why it's not worth trying. It's sure as fuck not gonna be easy though.

If it were me in this situation though... Personally, I probably wouldn't have gotten as far as you did in the first place. A rough home/family life, seemingly abusive actions towards you, and other stuff... I probably wouldn't have stuck around for long. I took enough shit like that to know I never should have to experience it again

Edit: Ah fuck, didn't realize this was almost a month old. Well, hope it... helps? I guess?