Anime/Manga Relationships

[GabeZhul]

Hello everyone. I have to start this thread with a bit of a clarification: I fell sick this week and decided to use the recovery time to catch up on the last few anime-seasons I missed. One of the shows I picked was Sakurasou na Pet no Kanojo [http://myanimelist.net/anime/13759/Sakurasou_no_Pet_na_Kanojo], a relatively standard romantic dramedy. I actually loved the show (well, most of it), and so I looked up how the light novels continued the story... and then, while I was reading about how the last three volumes messed up big time, I realized something: Why is that all romantic anime are about characters trying to step up their relationship and end when they actually get into one? (Or, alternatively, why are so many romance stories concluded with "then they went on their separate ways, and then a few years later, once they became completely different from the characters we grew to like offscreen, they meet up again and lived happily ever after"?)

I mean, I know the narrative reasons for that, about the audience-gripping effects of belligerent sexual tension on love triangles and such. What I can't wrap my head around is why most, if not all of the romance-centric series I have read or watched in the past decade used this formula exclusively. One would think there would be outliers or even a separate genre dedicated to actual relationship stories, as keeping up a relationship can be just as interesting to watch as any of the myriad of "indecisive/thick boy surrounded by at least two but usually more love-interests and neither of them actually tries to advance their relationship" silliness we get all the time.

But then another thought came to me: maybe there are stories like that out there, I just don't know about them because they are either underrepresented or just simply passed by me.

As such I would like to direct the question to you: Do you know any anime or mange where the leads either start out in a relationship or quickly advance to that level and the rest of the show is about actual relationship drama (or relationship-comedy) instead of the silly teenager romantic angst we so often get?

 

[Casual Shinji]

Kare Kano

26 episodes and the two leads start their relationship around episode 5. From then on it follows how their relationship grows and what it means for them individually. It also goes into how this relationship might not last, but if that were to happen it will have still changed them forever.

It also features this awesome scene right here.

 

[Queen Michael]

I second Kare Kano, but I'd suggest the manga instead. Over twenty books, and they're great.

 

[GabeZhul]

Well, that's just one title, but already one more than what I was actually expecting. Thanks, I will look it up.

[edit]: Looked it up. How come it doesn't surprise me that it's a shoujo series...?
Whatever, a little TV Tropes diving confirmed that this might be actually interesting, so I will probably try to read the manga version. Thanks again.

 

[OniYouji]

Eureka Seven is essentially a romance story with mechs. A 50 episode series, and halfway through (so not exactly quick, but the feelings are already there anyways), the two leads get together. The rest of the series actually manages to have their relationship grow even further and keep up the drama inherent in it.

 

[GabeZhul]

Eureka Seven is essentially a romance story with mechs. A 50 episode series, and halfway through (so not exactly quick, but the feelings are already there anyways), the two leads get together. The rest of the series actually manages to have their relationship grow even further and keep up the drama inherent in it.

Excuse me, but no. E7 had all the trappings of the typical shounen romance I was complaining about and the leads only actually "hook up", for the lack of better words, at the very end of the series, while 90% of their previous interactions are more or less typical supernatural adolescent romance.
I suppose the Talho/Hollad relationship would qualify, if 80% of their relationship wouldn't have been the same damn exchange of "You should trust me and not shoulder everything on your own." speech over and over again and only getting properly entangled at the end of the series.
So yeah, really not what I was asking for, but thanks for trying.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Sounds like you're looking for a comic aimed at older audiences, seinen or josei. There's some outliers in younger-audience targeted works like Kare Kano (I'd also put forth Absolute Boyfriend...after a fashion), but mid-relationship drama sounds like more of an adult theme.

That said, I'd recommend Ai Yori Aoshi. The first volume sets up the two main characters' relationship: long-separated friends betrothed in childhood, but who are genuinely into each other. You'd probably hear that it's a "harem series," and it does squeeze in harem-esque antics because they have to hide their relationship (their betrothal is technically no longer supported by their upper-class families), but there's never question about the two romantic leads' relationship, and their main drama is learning more about each other and overcoming the outside problems that are preventing them from actually getting married.

I also kinda want to say Toradora. I hesitate, though, since technically Taiga and Ryuuji aren't an official couple (in fact, they're supposedly trying to hook each other up with their best friends), and it's one of the bigger love *insert shape here* plots. It's just an odd duck, since part of the show's main thrust is that they actually pretty much are a couple, and have been from the almost the beginning, lacking only the maturity to recognize it in the middle of the otherwise angsty love decagon. Probably doesn't count to the OP standards, though, forget I brought it up. >_>

 

[SckizoBoy]

Lovely Complex was OK... though it is shoujo...

It starts out as your obvious chalk & cheese type thing, but there are three couples in it that all go through some sort of development (except maybe Nobuko/Heikichi, who don't seem to do much except fawn over each other, but nvm).

The other secondary couple (Chiharu/Ryoji) go through the usual shuffling around each other. The main couple like each other quite early on, and hook up about two thirds of the way through and then it kinda descends into a comedy during which they do try their best to support each other's ambitions. Supporting cast is refreshingly varied and different from the typical lot you get in this kind of romantic comedy. *shrug*

Anime only, since I haven't read the manga.

 

[sanquin]

There's actually another type of shoujo manga that's way too prevalent, imo. The bad boy x good girl one. Where an 'ugly' and bullied innocent/naive girl meet with the school's most popular sexy bad boy. And then he in some way or form talks/forces her into a relationship with him because she's 'interesting'. And then you constantly watch the relationship go from good, to bad, to a bit better, to bad again, etc. Mostly because of the girl over-thinking things with her insecurity. I've read like...10 manga that are like this already at the least.

Anyway, I really like Skip Beat! It's about a girl getting dumped by her pop star kind of boyfriend, whom was only using her. And to get revenge she decides to go into acting to try to beat him in his popularity. While at the company, she started to fall for the most popular actor there, and he also starts to fall for her. It's a VERY slow development though, as the manga focuses more on the girl dealing with her past and growing as an actress with the popular actor's help, and less on the romance. They're at chapter 204 now and she seems to only just now start to admit that she has deep feelings for the guy.

Anyway, proper shoujo manga's that don't follow that standard formula you described...hmm... Kaichou wa Maid Sama is one. Though once again the romance does develop pretty slowly. Even if you do see it develop past the first 'date' in the manga. Sukitte Ii na yo works too. The two mains get in a relationship quickly. The guy looks like he's the typical bad boy at first, but soon reveals to be just a regular guy with his own worries and imperfections. He just happened to become popular in high school. Bit too many 'life lessons' to go from a good to a great manga though.

 

[sextus the crazy]

Clannad: after story is about relationship drama and it proves that the feels train has no brakes. You'll have to watch Clannad first, though, which is a VN romcom that's alright and more light-hearted.

 

[Akytalusia]

As such I would like to direct the question to you: Do you know any anime or mange where the leads either start out in a relationship or quickly advance to that level and the rest of the show is about actual relationship drama (or relationship-comedy) instead of the silly teenager romantic angst we so often get?

clannad is the formula we're all used to, and awesome. but the second season, clannad after story, is exactly what you're looking for. you would do well to watch those. i recommend watching both seasons in order.

 

[saintdane05]

I nominate Ritsuka and Soubi from Loveless. Its creepy, but damn good. (Read the manga. The anime is just a mind screw fever dream(

D'aaaaaawwww....

Either that, or Iwould go with Madoka X Homura. I don't care if its not "Romantic" love. Its still my OTP!

"I'll repeat it. I'll continue to repeat it over and over. Visiting the same time again and again, searching for the single exit out. Searching for the path to save you from a fate of despair."
"Madoka... my one and only friend. If it's... If it's for you, I have no problem being trapped eternally in this maze." ~ Homura Akemi

 

[Entitled]

Plenty of Visual Novel-based stories focus on characters after hook up, probably based on the medium's origin as "dating sims", with a focus on what happens AFTER they asked each other out, and then as they expanded from the formula of "confession-> dating scene -> porn" into romantic melodramas, they turned it into the utsuge genre, which follows a pattern of "comedic introduction -> adventures and confession -> dramatic trials and crying"

Clannad is an example of that genre, along with the rest of it's spiritual franchise, (Air, Kanon, Little Busters).

Others in the genre include Ef: A Fairy tale of the Two, Katawa Shoujo, and Kira Kira.

(Note: Other than Clannad, most VN adaptations are shit, so you should probably just read the original games even for the ones that do have an anime)

Other than that genre, the only ones that are think of are the ones that are not romance-focused stories in the first place, and the romance happens in a side-plot. I assume recommending Legend of the Galactic Heroes wouldn't really be an answer to your problem.

(Not that it stops me from recommending Legend of the Galactic Heroes anyways).

 

[GabeZhul]

Honestly, It's kind of annoying that only shoujo and josei series do this kind of relationship drama. Not that I have anything against them, but it just feels like exchanging one set of clichés and conventions for another. -.-

As for Clannad, that's a bit late, I have read the VN years ago.

Also, just to clarify things: this is not really a recommendation thread. I mean, I am thankful for the recommendations, but I already have a pretty big backlog, so I don't think I would get to any of these in this semester.

Finally, another clarification: The examples don't necessarily have to be from romance-centric series'. Even if it's just a sub-plot in, say, an action or sports series, it would still interest me just on an intellectual level. So yeah, keep them coming.

Plenty of Visual Novel-based stories focus on characters after hook up, probably based on the medium's origin as "dating sims", with a focus on what happens AFTER they asked each other out, and then as they expanded from the formula of "confession-> dating scene -> porn" into romantic melodramas, they turned it into the utsuge genre, which follows a pattern of "comedic introduction -> adventures and confession -> dramatic trials and crying"

Clannad is an example of that genre, along with the rest of it's spiritual franchise, (Air, Kanon, Little Busters).

Others in the genre include Ef: A Fairy tale of the Two, Katawa Shoujo, and Kira Kira.

(Note: Other than Clannad, most VN adaptations are shit, so you should probably just read the original games even for the ones that do have an anime)

Other than that genre, the only ones that are think of are the ones that are not romance-focused stories in the first place, and the romance happens in a side-plot. I assume recommending Legend of the Galactic Heroes wouldn't really be an answer to your problem.

(Not that it stops me from recommending Legend of the Galactic Heroes anyways).

Dude, I am one of the mods at VNDB. I am pretty much the last person you need to tell about visual novels.

Also, two corrections: "dating sims" barely have anything to do with VNs, they are just often hybridized because the classic VN presentation (narrated text + tachies) is the cheapest way to tell a story in a game like this. Also, practically no dating sims focus on ongoing relationships either (the only one I could recall is Love+, but that game creeps me the hell out so I don't want to even talk about it -.-), they usually end with either confession + epilogue or maybe they add one last bit of drama to be resolved before the ending.

Speaking of which, the second formula you were talking about (romcom common route -> romantic beginning or heroine route -> drama/separation -> reunion/climax -> happy ending) is not "utsuge" but "nakige". Utsuges are depressing games, usually about revenge, desperation, catastrophes, apocalypses and other nice themes like these, and they generally have depressing endings as well. Try not to confuse the two, it can lead to some weird conflicts (source: me).

As for LGH, I have honestly wanted to try it out for a while, but the episode-count is quite daunting and I have heard mixed opinions about it from my friends. So yeah, I give you the go; convince me.

 

[NeutralDrow]

There's actually another type of shoujo manga that's way too prevalent, imo. The bad boy x good girl one. Where an 'ugly' and bullied innocent/naive girl meet with the school's most popular sexy bad boy. And then he in some way or form talks/forces her into a relationship with him because she's 'interesting'. And then you constantly watch the relationship go from good, to bad, to a bit better, to bad again, etc. Mostly because of the girl over-thinking things with her insecurity. I've read like...10 manga that are like this already at the least.

I don't think I've read one like that, but my Shoujo Beat and Hana to Yume reading has been a bit limited. What are some stories like this? Is Black Bird one? That's certainly what the volume covers seem to indicate...

I have seen one that's kind of the opposite, though. Missions of Love involves a bad girl (well, unnerving and standoffish at least) and the school's most popular sexy good boy, and her blackmailing him into a facsimile of a relationship with the fact that he's actually kind of a bastard. Four volumes in, and I haven't quite sorted out what I think of it, but it's entertaining.

Honestly, It's kind of annoying that only shoujo and josei series do this kind of relationship drama. -.-

I gave a seinen example... >_>

Dude, I am one of the mods at VNDB. I am pretty much the last person you need to tell about visual novels.

One of these days, I'll recognize you right off the bat. I was wondering if I should bring up Kotori's route in Da Capo, but thought "nah, no reason."

Grisaia no Kajitsu might also have examples, but I've only just stepped off the common route for the first time, so I'm going on hearsay (specifically, that the character routes are just as long as the common one).

EDIT: Oh, and Heart de Roommate. Counts even better, since it specifically apes an anime series.

...oh, wait, you're from VNDB. I forgot, that game's like red kryptonite to the site, isn't it.

 

[ItouKaiji]

Well, I think one important point is there is nothing more boring than a happy couple. All the drama and interesting bits are how they got together, once they've been through the ringer but finally ended up together happily ever after what's left to tell. Might as well as why action movies end after the bad guy is defeated and the day is saved the answer is going to be pretty mundane and not particularly interesting in most cases. So sure you can find examples of stories about characters in relationships, but that's usually only to be interesting if they've got something else going on.

 

[Queen Michael]

What are some stories like this? Is Black Bird one? That's certainly what the volume covers seem to indicate...

As far as I can remember, it is. And it's also a horrible manga. Avoid avoid avoid.

 

[NeutralDrow]

What are some stories like this? Is Black Bird one? That's certainly what the volume covers seem to indicate...

As far as I can remember, it is. And it's also a horrible manga. Avoid avoid avoid.

Advice happily accepted.

Though probably unneeded, for a comic where the heroine shows that much consistent distress on every single cover. Don't think I've seen that on any comic that wasn't porn. >_>

 

[Queen Michael]

What are some stories like this? Is Black Bird one? That's certainly what the volume covers seem to indicate...

As far as I can remember, it is. And it's also a horrible manga. Avoid avoid avoid.

Advice happily accepted.

Though probably unneeded, for a comic where the heroine shows that much consistent distress on every single cover. Don't think I've seen that on any comic that wasn't porn. >_>

It's not pron, it's just that the male love interest is a huge jerk.

 

[GabeZhul]

snip

Grisaia is a mixed bag. Amane's and Makina's routes are really not about romance, Michiru's route is a trainwreck with some of the most infuriating plot-devices ever (which also stunt the relationship-development for a good 80% of the route), Sachi's route was a mixed bag, with a boring first half and a pretty good second half and an actually interesting romance while Yukino's was just over the top, though it at least delved a little deeper into the relationship than the others thanks to its longer timeframe.

As for Heart de Roommate, I have no first-hand opinion since I never read it, but as far as I can gather people generally disliked it because the hetare protagonist (I don't even know why some Japanese writers have an obsession with completely worthless protagonists that everyone hates, I suppose they might try to pander to their local otaku audience or something), dumb plot and whiplash-inducing genre shifts in the routes (from romcom about a crosdressing boy in a girl's dorm to utsuge with heroine deaths). All in all, I think it's just not a story designed for a western audience, as Japanese are much more tolerant to annoying protagonists and ambiguous, depressing endings than we are.

Well, I think one important point is there is nothing more boring than a happy couple. All the drama and interesting bits are how they got together, once they've been through the ringer but finally ended up together happily ever after what's left to tell. Might as well as why action movies end after the bad guy is defeated and the day is saved the answer is going to be pretty mundane and not particularly interesting in most cases. So sure you can find examples of stories about characters in relationships, but that's usually only to be interesting if they've got something else going on.

Just because you lack the imagination to understand how much untapped narrative potential lies in an ongoing-relationship story doesn't mean there is none to be found. You simply have been conditioned by the medium to take the idea that only the "getting-into-a-relationship" part is interesting because the anime/manga industry's primary target is the late teen/early twenties demographic, the ones with whom this kind of plot resonates with because of their own puberty and social pressure regarding the myth of "true love" that they are told they need to find.

It's not a plot-convention dictated by interest or narrative usefulness, it's just a cold marketing-tactic designed to appeal to their chosen audience, and it became so prevalent in every genre that people rarely even question it anymore and, frankly speaking, it is simply aggravating, as it leads to stagnation.

Case in point: In the past week I have been catching on the last two year in anime, which meant watching about half a dozen romantic comedies as well, and in each of them there were
-A generally nice male lead with average grades and no really outstanding qualities
-Two main love interests, a lovestruck, energetic average girl with big boobs and the primary love interest who is usually indifferent or downright antagonistic towards the male lead, usually comes from a rich family, great either at academics or sport, usually at both, and has A-cup angst
-There is always a beach episode that has at least one sub-plot about breast sizes
-There is always a cultural festival, and its end marks a development in the relationships between the characters
-There are at least one but usually two or more satellite-romantic-interests around the main trio, yet all of them get along even though their obvious conflict of interest
-The male lead always chooses the indifferent/antagonistic girl over the lovestruck energetic girl even to the point of rejecting the latter when she finally spits it out
-None of these series ever conclude in one season. None of them. At best their ending kind of solidifies the position of the primary female lead, but usually it just ends on an ambiguous note about youth and enjoying their school lives together and whatnot.

And these weren't even harem series'! This formula has picked out ever since the first Shakugan no Shana anime season, got solidified by the success of Toradora, and now every single one of these, mostly light-novel based animes follow the formula to the point of nausea. -.-