Are retro platformers likely to come back into the mainstream?

[dscross]

With the success of Sonic Mania and the release of Freedom Planet on PS4, are we likely to see this genre take off again? I mean, we've also had some pretty successful retro style indie games, like The Shantae series, Super Meat Boy etc.

I feel like with the success of them lately larger companies might go back to making a lot more of them again by popular demand. I hope so. I mean, I guess the handheld market still has a few of them but...

What do you think?

 

[sXeth]

Something I don't really understand is why the games that hop back into 2d land seem to go immediately for low-res styles or pixel-art. Art (and animation ontop) is a skillset, sure, but it seems like there should be more then a bare fraction of 2d platformers or isometric/grid RPGs that didn't just leap instantly into "We MUST be SNES graphics".


That specific retro-style is a pretty time-limited niche. Once you get past the 20 somethings that remember their SNESes and Segas fondly, you're mostly gonna get people wondering why you're making shoddy looking upscaled sprites (aside from the minimal percentage that actually do the style well).

 

[Hawki]

Mainstream? Not really. John Doe isn't going to find retro platformers on store shelves.

Comeback? I guess, but I don't think Sonic Mania belongs in the conversation per se, since it's piggybacking off an existing IP, and a style of gameplay that the IP possessed from its inception (and I'd argue still possessed with the 2D handheld games, but, well, there's a lot of "truths" concerning the Sonic series I don't agree with). But yes, it is noticable that games like the ones the OP mentioned have been released, and have got a fair amount of attention with those in the know.

That said, 2D platformers have the advantage of nostalgia and are relatively simple to make. But I do have to ask why more big companies don't put out more 2D platformers - bizzarely, EA and Microsoft seem to be relatively onboard with this, but I can think of various IPs from big publishers/developers that could benefit from this. True, a 2D platformer is low risk, low reward, but I think that makes a healthy counter-balance to high risk, high reward. Sonic Mania is an example of this, but there's plenty of other IPs that can be leveraged.

 

[Zhukov]

Aren't they already mainstream?

There's a metric crapton of retro platformers being churned out by the indie scene and even sme of the big publishers are making them, such as Ubisoft with the new Rayman games and Nintendo with New Super Mario Bros Whatever The Fuck It Was Called.

They haven't gone anywhere. They're just cheaper to make these days and have thus become the domain of smaller developers.

 

[dscross]

Aren't they already mainstream?

There's a metric crapton of retro platformers being churned out by the indie scene and even sme of the big publishers are making them, such as Ubisoft with the new Rayman games and Nintendo with New Super Mario Bros Whatever The Fuck It Was Called.

They haven't gone anywhere. They're just cheaper to make these days and have thus become the domain of smaller developers.

I wouldn't call indie developers mainstream. Plus, how many are really successful except the ones I've listed above. I guess new Rayman and 2D Mario are there by big companies but I wouldn't say there's enough games to make them mainstream though - not in the same way they were in the 90s.

 

[CaitSeith]

Something I don't really understand is why the games that hop back into 2d land seem to go immediately for low-res styles or pixel-art. Art (and animation ontop) is a skillset, sure, but it seems like there should be more then a bare fraction of 2d platformers or isometric/grid RPGs that didn't just leap instantly into "We MUST be SNES graphics".


That specific retro-style is a pretty time-limited niche. Once you get past the 20 somethings that remember their SNESes and Segas fondly, you're mostly gonna get people wondering why you're making shoddy looking upscaled sprites (aside from the minimal percentage that actually do the style well).

One word: budget. Most 2d platformers on this generation are made by indies, and they focus their resources on gameplay over graphics. Of course there are exceptions like Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams; but they usually use crowdfunding or partnerships with other companies to bump up their budget.

 

[Zhukov]

I wouldn't call indie developers mainstream. Plus, how many are really successful except the ones I've listed above. I guess new Rayman and 2D Mario are there by big companies but I wouldn't say there's enough games to make them mainstream though - not in the same way they were in the 90s.

Okay, here's the thing.

- There currently exists at least some demand for retro platformers.

- Platformers can be made relatively cheaply.

- So indie developers who don't have a whole lot of cash to throw around tend to make a lot of them.

- Because of those low production costs indie developers can sell their retro platformers much cheaper than a big-budget game.

- Retro platformers live or die on the strength of their gameplay, level design and controls.

- Spending a ton of money on developing a retro platformer with the latest graphics will be a drastic case of diminishing returns.

- So large publishers tend not to bother with them. Even if they make a good one it will be competing with a ton of indie games that play just as well and are cheaper.

Hence the current situation.

Basically, as far as I can tell, in the current environment retro platformers they are as mainstream as they can be and as mainstream as they need to be.

 

[Casual Shinji]

In what way? Like in the capacity that Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed are? Because that's probably never going to happen.

I'd say platformers are good where they are now -- they're more than able at finding a large enough audience.

 

[sXeth]

Something I don't really understand is why the games that hop back into 2d land seem to go immediately for low-res styles or pixel-art. Art (and animation ontop) is a skillset, sure, but it seems like there should be more then a bare fraction of 2d platformers or isometric/grid RPGs that didn't just leap instantly into "We MUST be SNES graphics".


That specific retro-style is a pretty time-limited niche. Once you get past the 20 somethings that remember their SNESes and Segas fondly, you're mostly gonna get people wondering why you're making shoddy looking upscaled sprites (aside from the minimal percentage that actually do the style well).

One word: budget. Most 2d platformers on this generation are made by indies, and they focus their resources on gameplay over graphics. Of course there are exceptions like Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams; but they usually use crowdfunding or partnerships with other companies to bump up their budget.

The couple I can think off offhand are Dust : An Elysian Tale, and Hollow Knight. Both stylized (and Hollow Knight a bit simplistic), but clearly not pushing to a deliberately low fidelity. (EDIT : Also Salt and Sanctuary. ARPGish platformers seem to avoid pixel art I guess?)

The main reason the question kind of floated around in my brain was the recent Secret of Mana remake trailer. Which is a weird case that seems to have decided to remake their 2d SNES game as a retro-N64 style game. Like there's some reason they couldn't do an upgrade on the sprite art without pushing the whole thing into 3d graphics.

 

[gsilver]

The couple I can think off offhand are Dust : An Elysian Tale, and Hollow Knight. Both stylized (and Hollow Knight a bit simplistic), but clearly not pushing to a deliberately low fidelity.

Probably a better example would be the Rayman Origins/Legends games.
Those looked amazing and show what a big-budget developer can do with 2D art. Ori and the Blind Forest was awesome looking, as well.
More of that, please.

 

[CaitSeith]

One word: budget. Most 2d platformers on this generation are made by indies, and they focus their resources on gameplay over graphics. Of course there are exceptions like Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams; but they usually use crowdfunding or partnerships with other companies to bump up their budget.

The couple I can think off offhand are Dust : An Elysian Tale, and Hollow Knight. Both stylized (and Hollow Knight a bit simplistic), but clearly not pushing to a deliberately low fidelity. (EDIT : Also Salt and Sanctuary. ARPGish platformers seem to avoid pixel art I guess?)

The main reason the question kind of floated around in my brain was the recent Secret of Mana remake trailer. Which is a weird case that seems to have decided to remake their 2d SNES game as a retro-N64 style game. Like there's some reason they couldn't do an upgrade on the sprite art without pushing the whole thing into 3d graphics.

This is pure speculation, but I see enough similarities between Secret of Mana and FFXV combat system that, with some small modifications, they will be able to reuse it while keeping the original gameplay. I'm actually looking forward to it. By the way, isn't the FFVII remake going to use action combat too? It could be they decided to focus they efforts on that direction now, maybe FFXV was such a big money sink that they are trying to adapt some of their components in their new games, or maybe FFXV helped them to create the tools to make their 3D games much more easily and they are taking advantage of it with old IPs.

 

[sXeth]

One word: budget. Most 2d platformers on this generation are made by indies, and they focus their resources on gameplay over graphics. Of course there are exceptions like Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams; but they usually use crowdfunding or partnerships with other companies to bump up their budget.

The couple I can think off offhand are Dust : An Elysian Tale, and Hollow Knight. Both stylized (and Hollow Knight a bit simplistic), but clearly not pushing to a deliberately low fidelity. (EDIT : Also Salt and Sanctuary. ARPGish platformers seem to avoid pixel art I guess?)

The main reason the question kind of floated around in my brain was the recent Secret of Mana remake trailer. Which is a weird case that seems to have decided to remake their 2d SNES game as a retro-N64 style game. Like there's some reason they couldn't do an upgrade on the sprite art without pushing the whole thing into 3d graphics.

This is pure speculation, but I see enough similarities between Secret of Mana and FFXV combat system that, with some small modifications, they will be able to reuse it while keeping the original gameplay. I'm actually looking forward to it. By the way, isn't the FFVII remake going to use action combat too? It could be they decided to focus they efforts on that direction now, maybe FFXV was such a big money sink that they are trying to adapt some of their components in their new games, or maybe FFXV helped them to create the tools to make their 3D games much more easily and they are taking advantage of it with old IPs.

Huh? Mana always had realtime action combat.

I was more commenting on the art/graphic style. Mana didn't have a huge amount going on with area design or anything. 3d might make for even wonkier hitboxes then they had in the original, granted. Kind of weird to remake a top down 2d game into a third-person 3d game.

As actual selling points go, I'll probably only bother with it if it has the missing stuff that got chopped off when the SNES CD got canned. It might be interesting to play the game again with the second half not being stapled together out of scraps and reused assets to try and form some kind of coherence, but the basic game itself I've had enough runs of.

 

[Chewster]

Aren't they already mainstream?

There's a metric crapton of retro platformers being churned out by the indie scene and even sme of the big publishers are making them, such as Ubisoft with the new Rayman games and Nintendo with New Super Mario Bros Whatever The Fuck It Was Called.

They haven't gone anywhere. They're just cheaper to make these days and have thus become the domain of smaller developers.

Yeah, really. Is everyone forgetting how popular stuff like Shovel Knight and Axiom Verge were a couple years ago? Hell, it seems like every other week Yahtzee is reviwing some variety of indie platformer.

I dunno if they will ever become "mainstream" again but A) what is meant by "mainstream" and B) do they even need to be? With digital distribution, it's easier than ever for game developers reach an audience and distribute their games so who cares of they are "mainstream" or not?

The new Sonic didn't start this shit, it never really stopped.

 

[dscross]

Aren't they already mainstream?

There's a metric crapton of retro platformers being churned out by the indie scene and even sme of the big publishers are making them, such as Ubisoft with the new Rayman games and Nintendo with New Super Mario Bros Whatever The Fuck It Was Called.

They haven't gone anywhere. They're just cheaper to make these days and have thus become the domain of smaller developers.

Yeah, really. Is everyone forgetting how popular stuff like Shovel Knight and Axiom Verge were a couple years ago? Hell, it seems like every other week Yahtzee is reviwing some variety of indie platformer.

I dunno if they will ever become "mainstream" again but A) what is meant by "mainstream" and B) do they even need to be? With digital distribution, it's easier than ever for game developers reach an audience and distribute their games so who cares of they are "mainstream" or not?

The new Sonic didn't start this shit, it never really stopped.

I never said it did and that's one game, made by an small developer that got popular which I neglected to mention. It doesn't constitute mainstream.

 

[Aerosteam]

The best performer ever made is getting a sequel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RHdrmZsNs0

But it's 2.5D.

 

[gsilver]

The best performer ever made is getting a sequel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RHdrmZsNs0

But it's 2.5D.

I helped fund this by buying Two-fur!

 

[sXeth]

The couple I can think off offhand are Dust : An Elysian Tale, and Hollow Knight. Both stylized (and Hollow Knight a bit simplistic), but clearly not pushing to a deliberately low fidelity.

Probably a better example would be the Rayman Origins/Legends games.
Those looked amazing and show what a big-budget developer can do with 2D art. Ori and the Blind Forest was awesome looking, as well.
More of that, please.

I actually found a couple of new examples recently to my point.

Steamworld Dig 2 (platformer) and Battlechasers (SNES-style JRPG thing). Which are I think, both indie level games (they're both indie priced anyways, Battlechasers might be technically AAA). Despite the throwback gameplay styles though, they are both incredible looking examples.