Assassins Creed Karma system

[Karma168]

Now I put this in the 'E3 hands on' thread here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.377705-E3-Preview-Assassins-Creed-3-Hands-On?page=2#14754278] but I thought it deserved it's own thread.

I actually think AC3 (or the next one) should have a karma system... Wait, don't leave in disgust!

First rule of the Assassins creed (something you'd think is kind of essential to the game) is don't kill the innocent, only those who deserve it. The poor guard watching the rooftops is hardly as deserving as the templar grand master.

The game could have moves/weapons that only incapacitate enemy soliders (e.g posion knocks you out, not kill you) meaning you can take out guards without killing them. Kill lots of 'inncoent' guards and you get negative karma and start to become feared by everyone. The side effect of this could be civilians don't help you as much, guards detect you faster, etc.

But there are some guards who deserve a knifing. Maybe they beat up civilians or destroy peoples homes. If you get close to these guards you see a little marker and if you kill them the people see you protect them, earning positive karma, earning admiration and help from civilians. Things like civilians giving you tips for a mission or more hiding spots.

This could go a way to getting away from just cutting through hundreds of grunt soldiers to kill your target in the least stealthy way possible.

Thoughts?

As an extra; since my side effects seem a bit biased towards being good, can anyone think of negative side effects for good karma and positive side effects for bad?

 

[Vanitas likes Bubbles]

No, why would you add a karma system, just let me downright kill the nasty civilians without punishment Ubisoft. This is supposed to be a game and games are supposed to be fun.

 

[JWRosser]

I think the protagonists in the AssCred series are verging closer to anti-heroes anyway, what with killing ANYONE who they think is in line with the Templars, such as, like you said, that nice guard patrolling the roof.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

No. Don't get your Dues Ex in my Assassin's Creed.

Edit: Also, guards are not innocent. They provide a clear and obvious obstacle to the order and their objective and are thus dispatched. They work for the villain willingly, they are evil by association.

 

[hazabaza1]

Seems dumb. And arbitrary. Let's just keep it as it is.

 

[Atrocious Joystick]

Better idea would be too just make stealth the better option in most situations by making combat against several opponents actually be hard. I'm always annoyed that the best option for an assassin seems to be to rush in and just spam the counterattack button over and over again untill all enemies basically kill themselves.

 

[Esotera]

Oh thank god, I came here to rant about this if they'd actually put it into the game. We all need to indiscriminately murder the whole town guard every once in a while.

That said, I definitely think they should have a greater emphasis on stealth in the game. The first one was reasonably hard unless you did a lot of preparation before a kill like recon, and clearing out archers on rooftops. In all the others it's quite easy to just take on all the guards and kill the target that way.

So I don't think they should implement a karma system, but they should make it harder (but not impossible) to kill your target if you don't follow the creed.

 

[Kal-Adam]

Someone forgot the assassins motto... "Nothing is true, Everything is permitted" It rejects morals by nature.

 

[Woodsey]

No. Don't get your Dues Ex in my Assassin's Creed.

Edit: Also, guards are not innocent. They provide a clear and obvious obstacle to the order and their objective and are thus dispatched. They work for the villain willingly, they are evil by association.

Deus Ex. And, what, your objection is that you have more options in how to handle guards? At the very least, other characters mentioning whether you're a pacifist or a nutjob would be a good acknowledgement of a person's playstyle.

(And you can never have too much Deus Ex in anything.)

OT: Not a bad idea, it'd certainly edge things back towards encouraging you to get yourself to targets stealthily. At the minute you can just beat the ever-loving shit out of everyone.

Although if they nerfed the combat your idea probably wouldn't even be needed. But I would like my playstyle reflected, at least through dialogue.

I shall give you one half of a thumbs-up.

 

[ultrachicken]

As much as the idea of a Deus Ex set in the American Revolution intrigues me, I'm going to have to reject this idea. Assassin's Creed does the whole indiscriminate murdering of enemies with no semblance of guilt thing well, so it should keep doing it, or do it better.

I think I would rather they just force you to actually be stealthy.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

No. Don't get your Dues Ex in my Assassin's Creed.

Edit: Also, guards are not innocent. They provide a clear and obvious obstacle to the order and their objective and are thus dispatched. They work for the villain willingly, they are evil by association.

Deus Ex. And, what, your objection is that you have more options in how to handle guards? At the very least, other characters mentioning whether you're a pacifist or a nutjob would be a good acknowledgement of a person's playstyle.

(And you can never have too much Deus Ex in anything.)

No, the problem I have is that you can never MAKE a game as good as Dues Ex without proper planning and years of thinking, Dues Ex requires complete and utter player control over the plot, a fair mix of RPG elements in the gameplay and levels diverse enough to allow the player to both explore, find their objective and then complete their objective. I don't believe Assassin's Creed could replicate that without tearing up the groundwork that the first 4 games created. I would prefer that the developers do their own thing over copying another series.

 

[Woodsey]

No. Don't get your Dues Ex in my Assassin's Creed.

Edit: Also, guards are not innocent. They provide a clear and obvious obstacle to the order and their objective and are thus dispatched. They work for the villain willingly, they are evil by association.

Deus Ex. And, what, your objection is that you have more options in how to handle guards? At the very least, other characters mentioning whether you're a pacifist or a nutjob would be a good acknowledgement of a person's playstyle.

(And you can never have too much Deus Ex in anything.)

No, the problem I have is that you can never MAKE a game as good as Dues Ex without proper planning and years of thinking, Dues Ex requires complete and utter player control over the plot, a fair mix of RPG elements in the gameplay and levels diverse enough to allow the player to both explore, find their objective and then complete their objective. I don't believe Assassin's Creed could replicate that without tearing up the groundwork that the first 4 games created. I would prefer that the developers do their own thing over copying another series.

Alright, you need to spell it properly because right now I'm getting subliminal messages to 'Do Sex' with you, and I don't know how long I can subdue it.

And it's just offering a little more response to player actions. That's just a natural evolution of what is already in the games now, it doesn't require ripping it out from the ground up in the slightest.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

No. Don't get your Dues Ex in my Assassin's Creed.

Edit: Also, guards are not innocent. They provide a clear and obvious obstacle to the order and their objective and are thus dispatched. They work for the villain willingly, they are evil by association.

Deus Ex. And, what, your objection is that you have more options in how to handle guards? At the very least, other characters mentioning whether you're a pacifist or a nutjob would be a good acknowledgement of a person's playstyle.

(And you can never have too much Deus Ex in anything.)

No, the problem I have is that you can never MAKE a game as good as Dues Ex without proper planning and years of thinking, Dues Ex requires complete and utter player control over the plot, a fair mix of RPG elements in the gameplay and levels diverse enough to allow the player to both explore, find their objective and then complete their objective. I don't believe Assassin's Creed could replicate that without tearing up the groundwork that the first 4 games created. I would prefer that the developers do their own thing over copying another series.

Alright, you need to spell it properly because right now I'm getting subliminal messages to 'Do Sex' with you, and I don't know how long I can subdue it.

And it's just offering a little more response to player actions. That's just a natural evolution of what is already in the games now, it doesn't require ripping it out from the ground up in the slightest.

It would require reworking and rewording the NPCs so that they can and will respond to the players playstyle. It would require the introduction of non-lethal weaponry in order to incapacitate guards, none of which exist in the game so far outside of diversionary bombs and tactics. It would also require redrawing some areas to allow players to take a more stealthy and evasive route to their objective. Do Sex does that well because they plan it well in advance. Assassin's Creed 3 is due out in a little over 4 months and they'll probably be finished with it in about a month.

 

[Fat Hippo]

I don't think I'd enjoy it very much, seeing as how I have a tendency to kill minstrels and beggars. Anyone who gets in my way, really.

What? Ezio is a giant douche anyway. I'm just being 'in character.'

Yes, I have a tendency to be kind of a psychopath in certain games. If they didn't want me to kill civilians, they shouldn't have made them so annoying though.

 

[Woodsey]

No. Don't get your Dues Ex in my Assassin's Creed.

Edit: Also, guards are not innocent. They provide a clear and obvious obstacle to the order and their objective and are thus dispatched. They work for the villain willingly, they are evil by association.

Deus Ex. And, what, your objection is that you have more options in how to handle guards? At the very least, other characters mentioning whether you're a pacifist or a nutjob would be a good acknowledgement of a person's playstyle.

(And you can never have too much Deus Ex in anything.)

No, the problem I have is that you can never MAKE a game as good as Dues Ex without proper planning and years of thinking, Dues Ex requires complete and utter player control over the plot, a fair mix of RPG elements in the gameplay and levels diverse enough to allow the player to both explore, find their objective and then complete their objective. I don't believe Assassin's Creed could replicate that without tearing up the groundwork that the first 4 games created. I would prefer that the developers do their own thing over copying another series.

Alright, you need to spell it properly because right now I'm getting subliminal messages to 'Do Sex' with you, and I don't know how long I can subdue it.

And it's just offering a little more response to player actions. That's just a natural evolution of what is already in the games now, it doesn't require ripping it out from the ground up in the slightest.

It would require reworking and rewording the NPCs so that they can and will respond to the players playstyle. It would require the introduction of non-lethal weaponry in order to incapacitate guards, none of which exist in the game so far outside of diversionary bombs and tactics. It would also require redrawing some areas to allow players to take a more stealthy and evasive route to their objective. Do Sex does that well because they plan it well in advance. Assassin's Creed 3 is due out in a little over 4 months and they'll probably be finished with it in about a month.

Well I was speaking from a figurative point of it being a good inclusion for the series (and a natural fit), not "quick! Cram this in!".

 

[Mysterious Username]

Karma systems only make sense in games where you the player are in control of the character's morality.
It's established in the first Assassin's Creed that in order to properly access your ancestral memory that you must not act outside of the bounds that your ancestor would. Thus why killing civilians takes away your health.
Now it would be interesting if this latest ancestor was a little more dubious morality wise, but given the vibes AC3 is handing out it's unlikely.
In summery I think it's far too late in the franchise to be introducing something as potentially game-changing as a karma system. You need a lose narrative for that sort of thing and AC's is very much so tight.

 

[Scorched_Cascade]

"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt"

This quote fits the Assassin order, even if it's not about them, as they tend to play a bit fast and loose with the concept of who is and who is not innocent.

They're very morally grey and are international terrorists who are against the idea of a perfect world because it would be controlled by a, possibly brainwashing, elite but by fighting it they also make everyone else's choice for them without asking them.

From their actions it seems that if you are at all in their way then you are *not* innocent.

You want to add a morality system to this?

[sub][sub][sub]This argument totally brought to you independant of the fact that if this system was in place I'd be neck deep in negative karma for killing beggers[/sub][/sub][/sub]

 

[demolisher360]

It's not a bad idea and I wouldn't have a problem with it, but only if it was optional, if it was forced i'd probably just get frustrated with it.