Bethesda Softworks - The Good, The Bad and The Glitchy

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willgreg123

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I've finally gained the confidence in myself to write a review on something I feel could have the right to express my feelings on. I also learned what ticks you people right the hell out, though I'm sure in that category I have allot to learn.

So anyways, the reason my attention is brought to Bethesda Softworks is not just because I've been quiet entertained with Fallout 3, even Oblivion, but I feel the studio is getting a false sense of accomplishment, even if Fallout 3 sold like hot cakes if cake where the currency in a fallen society after a nuclear apocalypse.

See, even with Fallout 3's leaps and bounds of improvement over Oblivion, it's still undermined by the fact many, if not all PC players, only get the most out of the game with little to excessive amounts of mods, patches, add-ons and so on. The Bethesda games never stands on their own very wall at all, especially Oblivion. Even after modifying the crap out of Oblivion, it was still wobbly and barely held together, its limbs falling off at the seams, screams of agony conveyed through poorly written, broken dialogue trees.

Fallout 3 stood on it's own pretty well, but give the right tweaks and it has the potential of being a very impressive game. However, sometimes the mods are absolutely necessary, best example being that Fallout 3 for PC has no zoom-in/zoom-out feature for scopes, at all! None! One fixed distance, and that's it. The scroll button on the mouse isn't even being saved for anything! It's just sitting there, waiting patiently in the control settings, only to bulge its eyes out in shock when it sees Fallout 3 leave the train station without it.

But my argument is also a selling point, as I've gotten more fun out of the game with mods then I ever thought possible. Some of the mods for Fallout 3 are inspiring, impressive and inventive, especially some of the radio mods. I think most of us would agree hearing Butcher Pete loses its charm after the bizzilionth time. Mind you, the soundtrack's great, but painfully monotonous and yet on one side of the argument I can't blame them. They could've stuffed the radio feature to the gills with chart destroying one-hit-wonders, but that'd be very expensive. However, the other side of the debate is there are many mods I found that had large lists of dirt cheap songs their staff completely missed out on, many in the public domain, so the cost friendly excuse only goes so far.

While I'm on the topic, I think my favorite radio mod has to be one called Existence. It's a charming radio station run by an AI, making it possible to bypass crappy fan voice acting all together by using a computer's voice. The host's lines are chillingly cold and spooky, while cutting to the core of the human condition, not even in a cheesy "yeah, we've heard it" kind of way. You start to develop a real opinion on the character after listening to him for a while, not like 3Dog's "I'm the cool, edgy, radio rebel, with liberal ideals!"

The AI will occasionally challenge itself and you with random spark of intellectual moments, grasping at straws with what little it knows, while giving you vague bits of his background. What won me over was this station also comes with optional quests to unlock more songs...

Anyways, back to the review. Does a game that needs help from fan made content be really considered a good game? I mean, sure Fallout 3 is pretty good on its own, but just pretty good, seemingly lacking in another level of content. But the right mods fill in the gaps quiet nicely! But that's another problem, as like the sandbox genre, mods lack direction. What one person thinks adds many exciting and interesting elements, another will find fruitless and without purpose.

I for one look for the most practical mods, like the need for sleep, food and water, or smokeable cigarettes, but furthermore, mods that add tactical elements, like crippling limbs, losing blood in the form of health after being hit with bullets, varying from different kinds of weapons and ammo used, and being knocked over when hit with large explosions, stuff like that. But someone who's more the Halo type will find these kinds of mods stupid and would rather have a mod that gave all the women in Fallout D cup breasts. (Don't get your panties in a knot, I'm just poking fun, I play Halo too... sometimes... due to lack of options)

In my opinion, the staff of Bethesda Softworks needs to look into mods like the ones I find adds more immersion and try to incorporate them into future games. It's obvious they're trying very hard to get more elements of gameplay with every new game and I think it's a promising sign they made such a vast improvement since Oblivion, not to mention they do give a sense of willingness to improve themselves. But just don't let the success go to their heads! And above all, for god sake, improve the conversations. I mean, Fallout 3's bots at least look a little into it when they talk to you, but the utter lack of dialogue and personalities makes it less exciting to talk to other residence.

What I loved about adventure games was you could have whole conversations with random people, that had absolutely nothing to do with any quest or plot, they're just there to have fun, weird, unique conversations with. This would add so much more variety to that pesky role playing element the Beth team is suppose to be reinforcing.

So, let me leave you with this final thought, I'd also love to see a multilayer ad-on. I mean, the Fallout 3 sandbox is so huge, it's just begging for co-op! Think of it, just disable VATS (it's a crutch anyway) and modify how you talk to the bots so the game doesn't freeze with creepy, unbudging eye contact (which also need to be improved), you could let dozens of players wander aimlessly on your server! And to keep it balanced, use a level cap, so everyone is default at lv.20 or so when they spawn in, start everyone with a few basic weapons, some stimpacks and everything else like armor, rations, misc, must be scavenged upon spawning, and may be looted off the corpse when dying, only getting the default equipment upon respawn.

Think how cool it'd be to run into a random encounter with an actual player, get into a fight with him/her, then assaulted by a hoard of Super Mutants that you and the guest player must fend off together, just to survive! Then being left with the moral decision later of either killing said guest, or letting him/her live out of gratitude. It's be like a free mmorp-.... oh... wait... that's why they didn't do that already.

On that note, I hope you enjoyed my thoughts... and Planet Fallout sucks.

EDIT: Fixed some grammatical errors. Only found two, not bad for something I wrote at 4am.
 

MiracleOfSound

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Jan 3, 2009
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I don't see why not having a zoom on the scopes is a problem. Very few games have that.

They all have thier own level of Zoom, it's part of the weapon balancing.
 

brunothepig

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Any games that have modding software will obviously be improved by mods. Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout, Farcry 2, Counter Strike. Everything. And I found Oblivion to be an excellent game. I have yet to see a game with a "non-broken" dialogue tree. But yes, I would like to see them create a more survival
MiracleOfSound said:
I don't see why not having a zoom on the scopes is a problem. Very few games have that.

They all have thier own level of Zoom, it's part of the weapon balancing.
It's basically only the games with realistic modern weapons that have different zoom settings. Borderlands is the same as Fallout, as are many games, and they're still great.

But still, you made some good points, it would be nice to see some mod ideas implemented in the next Bethesda game. But then, modders will always 1-up a game, cause they know what they and others want.
 

Carnagath

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Bethesda are dead for me ever since they released the completely broken Fallout 3 Goty for the PS3 which, while the original game was fine, runs at 5 fps and crashes every 10 minutes and they have not bothered do anything about it. If they don't give a fuck, I sure as hell don't either, and will pirate all their games once I get my new gaming PC from now on and till the end of time.
 

spikeyjoey

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^^^

tripe? bit harsh- was well written well presented argument.

I have the 360 version and have no complaints- i was a little peeved by having no motorbike (and i know there is a mod for that), but i got over it..

If you dont have the option of changing anything you dont really want to,
 

willgreg123

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Anoctris said:
willgreg123 said:
To think, if Bethseda hadn't released the G.E.C.K, I wouldn't have lost those precious short-term memory cells reading this tripe.
spikeyjoey said:
^^^

tripe? bit harsh- was well written well presented argument.

I have the 360 version and have no complaints- i was a little peeved by having no motorbike (and i know there is a mod for that), but i got over it..

If you dont have the option of changing anything you dont really want to,
HAHAHA! Ahh... wait, I don't get it. G.E.C.K., the level construction kit... saved your short-term memory? Well, I understood the word tripe anyways, thanks for reading it at all...

@spikeyjoey: Aw, why thank you very much! This was the first review I've ever written, so even just one person liking it is a victory in my book.

Yeah, a motorcycle would've been real nice, hell, any vehicle. Thought I bet the graphics would chug way too much on a PC.

Anyhow, I'm glad no one took me overly serious. Escapist fans have a bad habit of starting a vendetta over the littlest opinions. But yes, you make a good point, we wouldn't miss mods if they weren't there, but think of all the cool toys we'd miss out on. I would've gotten bored with Fallout 3 the same way vanilla (pure) Oblivion lost my attention as soon as the main quest was over (which wasn't very good)
 

willgreg123

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brunothepig said:
Any games that have modding software will obviously be improved by mods. Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout, Farcry 2, Counter Strike. Everything. And I found Oblivion to be an excellent game. I have yet to see a game with a "non-broken" dialogue tree. But yes, I would like to see them create a more survival
MiracleOfSound said:
I don't see why not having a zoom on the scopes is a problem. Very few games have that.

They all have thier own level of Zoom, it's part of the weapon balancing.
It's basically only the games with realistic modern weapons that have different zoom settings. Borderlands is the same as Fallout, as are many games, and they're still great.

But still, you made some good points, it would be nice to see some mod ideas implemented in the next Bethesda game. But then, modders will always 1-up a game, cause they know what they and others want.
Oh, I gave the wrong impression I suppose.

I loved Oblivion! Keyword there 'loved', I guess after playing it for a while (2 years, lol) and sporting a great big hard-on for Fallout 3, I now look at Oblivion as Beth's Frankenstein monster. I even reinstalled it recently to see why it lost its luster in my eyes, only to find I couldn't modify it enough to make it worth keeping on my PC, which is why I came to the conclusion it wasn't a good game (for me)

I still relish the hours I spent traveling through the cold, dark forests, only to have my sleep awaken by a deadly assassin! Or fending off a hoard of goblins from a garden by smacking their heads down into the dirt with a large hammer, like a really bloody game of 'Whack a Goblin' Or investigating a mystery about a gang of shag happy elves in hopes of getting my sword of penetration polished.

Well I'm glad you took so much from my review! Hehe, yes, you make a good point as well, the modders will always get a leg up on the studio's guessing at what the public wants, seeing as they are the public. But I guess that means a game that works best with mods is still a good game, even though I would be incredibly disappointed if the next Beth game didn't have mods and would discourage me from buying it. I'd just like to see their next game stand on its own better, which I believe is very possible, as they seem eager to improve their methods.
 

katsabas

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Carnagath said:
Bethesda are dead for me ever since they released the completely broken Fallout 3 Goty for the PS3 which, while the original game was fine, runs at 5 fps and crashes every 10 minutes and they have not bothered do anything about it. If they don't give a fuck, I sure as hell don't either, and will pirate all their games once I get my new gaming PC from now on and till the end of time.
Oh yeah? I got GOTY as well and it runs just fine. It froze once or twice and is a bit slow when near that Deathclaw town but other than that, the game is a blast.
 

willgreg123

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denseWorm said:
I love Bethesda Softworks.

The Morrowing Game of the Year edition - complete with the two Xpacks - is one of the greatest games I've ever played.

I prefer the story and depth of Morrowind to Oblivion and Fallout 3, but I think it's all good. If there's one problem with Bethesda it is it's engine - with all it's bugs yeah - and the fact that it's games don't go on forever... The only truly endless RPG i know of for now is, really, WoW.

ps. Way to use a similar title to my review :p hilarious!
What I loved about Morrowind was it had allot more variety in towns and landscapes. The whole world felt alien and had many immersive elements. Hell, even the books to read where better. I also liked the deeper level of customization in clothing and conversation. Also, if you ran around stark naked in that game, people actually said something. Little details like that.

Lol, really? What was your title?
 

Liberaliter

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They made Morrowind, Oblivion and fallout 3 - which, whilst glitchty are some of my favourite all time games. Most the time thr bugs aren't that bad and are easily fixed (PC Version anyway)
 

MiracleOfSound

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Jan 3, 2009
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generic gamer said:
MiracleOfSound said:
I don't see why not having a zoom on the scopes is a problem. Very few games have that.

They all have thier own level of Zoom, it's part of the weapon balancing.
very few real scopes have that, most scope have one or two fixed zoom levels.

personally i thought fallout and oblivion stood up perfectly well on their own. the problem with people like the OP is that they don't tot up the amount of time it took to make every mod and add it to the game. essentially a fully modded oblivion is so impressive because it had double the development time of the basic game.

they had a strict development time on the game because we'd only ***** about it taking too long, look at ep3. also mods have no real need to be 100% polished or resource efficient. a modder can say "its broken but i can't fix it" or "if this won't run then tough, get a better pc"

people seemed to be disappointed in dialogue trees in oblivion but if you think about what was attempted in that game, random conversations of a completely modular nature, no two conversations the same, it suddenly gets much more impressive. its a monumental accomplishment of scripting and should be applauded as such, not derided because we've improved it with an unlimited budget and about four years extra time. no shit, more time and free modders made a better game. oh and yeah, its a pretty old game now, be impressed people still play it at all. they don't play might and magic which was released a few months later.
I agree with just about everything you said there. Well stated.

Oblivion was an amazing accomplishment. When it came out it was by far the best looking game out there, and the sheer number crunching required in moving through the world... madness.

The huge amount of dialogue options was something I've never seen before, and only Bioware have bettered it.

Fallout 3 then came out and became my favorite game of all time, despite playing it on 360 with no mods at all. They are both fantastic, beautiful (if unstable) pieces of interactive art with an unsurpassed level of interactivity.
 

MiracleOfSound

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Jan 3, 2009
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generic gamer said:
MiracleOfSound said:
thanks, i was a bit heated at that point, i'm not usually that direct online. just out of curiosity what didn't you agree with? i love oblivion and fallout but i know they have flaws, which flaw you thinking of?

and yeah, there's a lot to oblivion that you kinda miss when not paying attention. like every ingredient has its date logged when you pick it and it regrows some time later. or the fact that as a vampire your sun damage increases till mid day then decreases afterwards. just the sheer number of little things like that frankly boggle the mind. i'm in a first year of programming in my uni course and he sheer number of logic gates in their code for the smallest things astounds me.
For me the biggest flaws with both games were the amount of bugs. But as we've heard so many times... It's impossible to thoroughly playtest games of that size and scope.

While Oblivion's memory must have required huge memory space due to the things you mentioned... not to mention the physics (my Skingrad house has a crazy amount of stuff lying around), Fallout 3 must have been even more insane.. I mean you can kill a raider, go back a month of game time later and find his body parts in the same place you left them.

No wonder the save files are so huge.
 

Shru1kan

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Dec 10, 2009
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I read it entirely.

Bit wall o' text, throw in some images.

Now, there are a few annoying bugs, and even less game breakers. But the fact is that even in the unofficial patches, a lot of the things they fixed weren't all that noticeable.

Mods are fun, but I do think they (the original games) stand on their own quite well. Look at console sales, and the reviews. Not exactly easy to miss the fact that even off of the PC, console gamers loved it too.
 

LewsTherin

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I actually quite enjoy Oblivion...or I did after I applied the necessarily long list of mods to make it into the game it should have been at launch. Either way, I'm not complaining.
 

Therumancer

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To respond to the OP, I will say this:

I agree with you on certain points like how they should have greatly expanded the radio selection and voice track. I look at games like "Saint's Row 2" and "Grand Theft Auto IV" and the soundtracks they put together, along with the talk shows and such and I have to wonder why Fallout 3 couldn't have done better than it did, even while keeping to period music. I myself have seen a number of fan made radio mods with a good selection of songs that fit the atmosphere of the game perfectly.

On the other hand, I disagree on other points. I think the big point comes down to what we expect Fallout 3 to be. I for example like the game as an RPG, and actually think those elements should have been given more development. You on the other hand seem to think it should have been more of a shooter like say Borderlands, going by wanting things like zoomable scopes and such, which I think are kind of pointless since the game is stat based and the scopes are intended to just be an effect more than anything. I thought the way they worked was perfectly functional within the game as it was. Things like adding bleeding and the like would make the game needlessly complicated as well (though they wouldn't make it into more of an action game nessicarly). Details and such are fine and good, but stuff like that tends to simply create pointless busy work. It just means that I need to carry stuff to stop bleeding, and take the time to activate it periodically along with whatever I use for healing. It would be just as pointless as the Identify scrolls in Torchlight which I don't care for since every item is unidentified pretty much and they exist only to take up an inventory slot and make you waste time identifying items periodically.

As far as Bethesda goes in general, I honestly felt their RPGs have been universally good. I for one did not have any real problems with Oblivion, nor did I find it especially empty or repetitive. Quite the opposite actually, but there is no point to argueing that opinion. I will say however that I don't think conversation was intended to be that big a part of the game, but only a means to an end at a couple of specific points. Thus while other games have had better voice acting/dialogue choices, I think those things were not developed more completly because it would have been fairly pointless.

I mean sure, they could have come up with a more engaging experience when you chatted up a backround character like a peasant or whatever, but really it would have taken a lot of effort for something that is relatively pointless. For the most part I'm concerned with going out and doing things as opposed to chatting up random NPCS... and honestly Oblivion was using all of the NPCs mostly as filler so the world wouldn't look empty, as opposed to other games where things look abandoned, as noone seems to exist except for you, quest givers, and merchant NPCs. I think they came up with a fair compromise.

Many years ago when I was younger, I thought it was kind of interesting to have pointless NPCs to talk to in games like the Ultima series, that simply enhance the game backround. However as tech has increased it's no longer about simply writing a bunch of dialogue, people expect all those characters to be voiced and animated, and really I think that means having to revolve on a lot of generic performances and such. Not to mention that in a game trying to at least create the illusion of a realistic number of people to go along with the important ones, having all of these backround characters that are that well developed could rapidly become annoying since you'd have to figure out which ones are important and which ones aren't. As much "fun" as that might be for some, in general in RPGs dialogue and such is a sideline, I'm playing to be a hero and go out and kill stuf and steal it's treasure. The purpose of NPCs is simply to provide my reasons for doing so (and the point that makes or breaks a game is how well the cliques that justify my actions are written and implemented).