BioWare Unoriginal?

[Devour]

Is it just me, or has Bioware became completely unoriginal?

As an example: DA2 seems to "borrow" quite a few parts of it's gameplay and storytelling from Alpha Protocol. One or two of these wouldn't be a massive thing, but when you start doing the entire thing and putting it together you have to scratch your head.

Examples: The conversation system is taken pretty much directly from AP. The three conversation choices instead of two aligned and one neutral was a major factor of AP's design, where it's the "suave, aggressive and professional" choices determining what kind of spy you are.

The framing device of a person being interrogated on past events is taken pretty much directly from AP (although it's done far better, in my opinion, in Alpha Protocol). This alone set me off on hunting for more similarities.

Rivalry bonuses are taken, once again, directly from AP. If the handler you were using hated you, you got a completely different bonus than if they liked you. In fact, it was often beneficial to make a handler hate you if their bonuses weren't of much use to you since the opposite bonuses could be far more useful.

I've noticed this with other elements of BioWare's games (like the Dragon Age setting as a whole seems to be "inspired" by the Prince of Nothing trilogy).

Comments?

 

[MegaR]

Give a few examples of games that are 100% original most stuff has been done before.

Bioware has a lot of rpgs though. Most with the same engine, mechanics ect.
Does that make them unoriginal? no i dont think so. They are just specialised in one direction.

 

[Calcium]

Bioware is loved because of it's games stories, not it's originality as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps the love has gone too far for some people and now they think BioWare should be making perfect games.

 

[Kalabrikan]

Examples: The conversation system is taken pretty much directly from AP. The three conversation choices instead of two aligned and one neutral was a major factor of AP's design, where it's the "suave, aggressive and professional" choices determining what kind of spy you are.

Rivalry bonuses are taken, once again, directly from AP. If the handler you were using hated you, you got a completely different bonus than if they liked you. In fact, it was often beneficial to make a handler hate you if their bonuses weren't of much use to you since the opposite bonuses could be far more useful.

Both of these were done in the 90's by other RPG developers. You could just as easily argue Obsidian is ripping off Black Isle.

 

[starkiller212]

LOL Alpha Protocol stole that conversation wheel idea from Mass Effect, which is Bioware's other current RPG series. The only differences are that 3 different styles of response instead of Paragon-Neutral-Renegade (read: good-neutral-evil), and the conversation usually continues with whichever you choose until you change it again. DA2's system is more like Mass Effect's without the morality meter anyway.

Hahaha, claiming Bioware is copying Obsidian... oh the irony

 

[darth.pixie]

Bioware hasn't added much originality since KotOR, story, character, setting or gameplay wise.

But to be fair, the elements you described were done well before Alpha Protocol. And will be used by others.

Edit: The dialogue system was also done before Mass Effect, just not in huge titles. So stop saying that it was the first.

 

[Bocaj2000]

Alpha Protocol's speech system borrowed from Mass Effect, a Bioware game.
Alignment bars have been around for a while, and Dragon Age Origins did a good job with that mechanic.

are you new to gaming?
EDIT

LOL Alpha Protocol stole that conversation wheel idea from Mass Effect, which is Bioware's other current RPG series. The only differences are that 3 different styles of response instead of Paragon-Neutral-Renegade (read: good-neutral-evil), and the conversation usually continues with whichever you choose until you change it again. DA2's system is more like Mass Effect's without the morality meter anyway.

Hahaha, claiming Bioware is copying Obsidian... oh the irony

BAH!!! ninja'd

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

LOL Alpha Protocol stole that conversation wheel idea from Mass Effect, which is Bioware's other current RPG series. The only differences are that 3 different styles of response instead of Paragon-Neutral-Renegade (read: good-neutral-evil), and the conversation usually continues with whichever you choose until you change it again. DA2's system is more like Mass Effect's without the morality meter anyway.

Hahaha, claiming Bioware is copying Obsidian... oh the irony

Yup, I was about to point this out.

Alpha Protocol ripped off Mass Effect (and therefore Bioware) - Bioware only ripped off themselves with DA 2.

That said, is AP actually anything like Mass Effect or Dragon Age? I haven't played, but being a rip off of those two games (both of which I love) is a great endorsement.

 

[Cogwheel]

Story-wise? Probably, yes. As I see it, quite aside from their black/white morality and a few other issues, Bioware is a company of talented hacks. That's both a compliment and an insult, not a typo.

They take tired cliches, in other words, and tell them quite well. Sadly, even that's more than most manage. As such, they end up being some of the best around... if only by elimination.

 

[Dunkhelzahn]

Bocaj2000, I think that the shit-eating smirk on your DP really seals the deal of that insult. Really sells it.

In other news, Yes, sure, the conversation mechanics are similar between Alpha Protocol and Dragon Age 2. Alpha Protocol got it from Mass Effect, and in Mass Effect it was a gimmic used to update from the silver age of CRPGs, like Baldurs gate and the like.

Your core argument is also quite erroneous, Devour. You argue that Bioware in particular has become stale as far as storytelling and gameplay go. By that definition, do all shooters feature stale gameplay? DA2's gameplay is quite significantly different from any other Bioware RPG, but it holds many similarities to Beat em' Ups. Does the implimentation of features which currently exist within some other game or genre imply a lack of creativity? I certainly don't think so.

You obviously understand the concept of a framing device - does that not mean that both AP and DA have plagiarised from Citizen Kane? No.

 

[malestrithe]

You are confusing having similar elements with being unoriginal. All Western RPGs have similarities in them. Alpha Protocol and Dragon Age II are no different in that regard.

I have not played Dragon Age II not because of a general hatred for western rpgs, but because I dislike the company. Bioware has been making the same game since 1998. It does not matter where the game is set, Forgotten Realms, the Star Wars Universe, Mythical China, Deep Space, or a Tokeinesque fantasy, the games are the same. You are a person with a mysterious past, sometimes with amnesia, other times not. After a little adventuring, you are given a dilemma where you are the only one that could save the world. This world changing conflict is the most patient conflict out there. It will wait for you to continue the storyline if you find dicking around in your Farmville simulator more enjoyable. Your choices in the game end up not mattering because the only ones that count is the one after you beat the final boss. Do you go the evil route or do you go the good route.

For the record, no, I do not hate Bioware for finding a strategy that works. I hate Bioware for making the same game over and over again. I hate the fans for thinking that Dragon Age is the best western RPG ever made. Of course it is because Bioware had 10 opportunities to perfect the formula.

 

[TheBelgianGuy]

I'm sorry, is the entirety of the fantasy genre not one big clichéd unoriginal copy?

Good guy is happy - evil comes and makes good guy unhappy - good guy kills evil - good guy happy again.
Hell, IT'S NOT EVEN JUST FANTASY. EVERY GAME OUT THERE IS ABOUT THE GOOD GUY TO STOP THE EVILZ! (Except of course simulators and the like, but you get my point.)
Maybe they should've stopped World War 2 because they were copying from World war 1, the unoriginal 4!%!#%@#$#$%

Does this mean they should have stopped writing about fantasy after Tolkien's Lord of the Ring period, or it's not allowed anymore to even use the word vampire because Bram Stoker said it first? What the hell people.

Mind you, I loved every story Bioware told so far. From KOTOR to Jade Empire to Dragon age.
I also like various fantasy writers, though if you have to be harsh they're basically all making the same story with different names.

And yeah, AP has much stuff from other game.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Alpha Protocol ripped off Mass Effect (and therefore Bioware) - Bioware only ripped off themselves with DA 2.

They actually copied it from Fahrenheit.

 

[Axolotl]

I'm sorry, is the entirety of the fantasy genre not one big clichéd unoriginal copy?

Good guy is happy - evil comes and makes good guy unhappy - good guy kills evil - good guy happy again.
Hell, IT'S NOT EVEN JUST FANTASY. EVERY GAME OUT THERE IS ABOUT THE GOOD GUY TO STOP THE EVILZ! (Except of course simulators and the like, but you get my point.)

Just because the Fantasy genre and videogames as a medium a bereft of creativuity doesn't excuse Bioware from being unoriginal.

 

[TheBelgianGuy]

I'm sorry, is the entirety of the fantasy genre not one big clichéd unoriginal copy?

Good guy is happy - evil comes and makes good guy unhappy - good guy kills evil - good guy happy again.
Hell, IT'S NOT EVEN JUST FANTASY. EVERY GAME OUT THERE IS ABOUT THE GOOD GUY TO STOP THE EVILZ! (Except of course simulators and the like, but you get my point.)

Just because the Fantasy genre and videogames as a medium a bereft of creativuity doesn't excuse Bioware from being unoriginal.

Since you obviously are a much better writer than anybody Bioware could ever hope to hire, please give me a story I could make a game with, that involves killing people but has nothing to do with good vs. evil AND will sell.

 

[Kratenser]

I won't deny that bioware can be unoriginal, I mean their favourite theme is "let the player character be given an exalted position which puts them above the law, and then let them go save the world/galaxy, and along the way they can get increasingly powerful and interact with nearly everyone they meet"

Kotor: you were a jedi (above the law)
Mass Effect: You were a spectre (above the law)
Dragon Age: You were a Grey Warden (never fully explained but more or less above the law)

The only thing is though, its this reason alone that makes me play Bioware games. There are similarities everywhere if you look for them but, thats never got in the way of letting me enjoy a large and immersive RPG

 

[Gralian]

I'd like to know where the Dragon Age franchise was ever once considered original?

You know Origins itself was nothing but a complete glorification of almost every single fantasy trope? They did this in full knowledge; it was part of its appeal, after all. To whine that DA2 is "unoriginal" and yet ignore its predecessor, let alone its mission statement, is rather silly.

No, Bioware is not unoriginal. What about Mass Effect? I doubt anyone would champion that either Mass Effect titles were or could be considered "unoriginal", if only for the plot, at least.

 

[Zaik]

Considering that they've been re-releasing Baldur's Gate over and over again, and both Mass Effect games are just chest high walls TPS games, it's probably safer to say they've never actually been "original" with much of anything.

 

[Misho-]

Is it just me, or has Bioware became completely unoriginal?

As an example: DA2 seems to "borrow" quite a few parts of it's gameplay and storytelling from Alpha Protocol. One or two of these wouldn't be a massive thing, but when you start doing the entire thing and putting it together you have to scratch your head.

Examples: The conversation system is taken pretty much directly from AP. The three conversation choices instead of two aligned and one neutral was a major factor of AP's design, where it's the "suave, aggressive and professional" choices determining what kind of spy you are.

The framing device of a person being interrogated on past events is taken pretty much directly from AP (although it's done far better, in my opinion, in Alpha Protocol). This alone set me off on hunting for more similarities.

Rivalry bonuses are taken, once again, directly from AP. If the handler you were using hated you, you got a completely different bonus than if they liked you. In fact, it was often beneficial to make a handler hate you if their bonuses weren't of much use to you since the opposite bonuses could be far more useful.

I've noticed this with other elements of BioWare's games (like the Dragon Age setting as a whole seems to be "inspired" by the Prince of Nothing trilogy).

Comments?

Lol this is a fun thread but only because you (probably me) and a lot of people will get schooled... Look Bioware has always worked on projects that would be later picked up by Obsidian... Take the D&D series for example... (Look it up) So for that part is probably true that Obsidian learned tips from Bioware through all these years and not the other way around. And as for the conversation system. I gotta give it to the outraged people in this thread... Mass Effect did it first... Although I gotta confess... Alpha Protocol did it better in one regard...

In ME2 you always gotta pick Paragon or Renegade (when possible) over the neutral answer if you want the best possible outcome (loyalty, etc), while in AP it doesn't really matters since all options lead somewhere. Giving you the ability to roleplay freely...

But from what I've seen of DA2, now you can roleplay just as well since all the options lead somewhere (reward-story-wise).