Burger King Tells Everyone to Order From McDonald’s

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Seanchaidh

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Like I said, post 9/11 turned society in a surveillance state and now covid turns it into a police state.
if masks and shutdowns are making you think you live in a police state, you already lived in a police state.
 
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Cheetodust

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At least one costa has shut down permanently in my area. As someone who used to work them I hope something independent can eventually go in that space. I never worked for starbucks but I worked for another chain owned by the company that owns the license in Ireland and can confidently say the economy would ultimately benefit from them fucking off too. Short term job losses would be shit obviously but the Irish government is so unfriendly to new start up coffee shops and if they copped on in that regard we would be able to recover those jobs probably with companies that pay their taxes and, are in my experience, more likely to pay a living wage.
 

Thaluikhain

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The only thing more gross than that metaphor is the fact that its relatively accurate >.>
The British can only dream of having a PM (or government in general) as good as the one Australia has.

I have a hard time writing that with a straight face, but I'm not lying.
 

Generals

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What elites? Seems most corporations are perfectly fine with the government response. Espescially those in the industrial exports, energy, import/export, transshipment sector or aggregate industry(finance, law etc) which is where the bulk of a modern economy's income comes from. They are all relatively unharmed by the lockdowns. It seems to me it's more the common folk who are losing their small business or job in the service or entertainment industry. Sectors that may all not be that profitable but where a huge amount of people work in. Not to mention the effect lockdowns have on people's psychological or emotional welbeing, espescially those that live alone or in abusive households. That regular care is cancelled is also a choice because every covid death is one too many which is a metric that isn't employed with any other disease. Or mental health issues for that matter. How many people kill themselves every day for example? Most still in their prime of their life? Yet I hear no one shutting the country down because it's in a psychological crisis. That is why I said you could have more strict triages, or more organized at-home care or more specific quarantine measures for those at-risk. Why ruin a country when 99% isn't even at risk for the disease? It's a totally disproportionate response. Repeating the same measures over and over that clearly does not work is just dumb strategy. Spain had like the worst lockdowns in all of Europe, the ghost of Franco lived on in that country, yet it's worse there now than ever.

Also from what I understand the NHS was already pretty ramshackle before covid.
First and foremost I wonder where the 99% comes from and what determines who is "at risk"? Because on top of the risk of dying there is the risk of causing permanent damage to your body and people never fully recovering. (That also comes with an economic cost...)
And the NHS is hardly the only healthcare system under enormous pressure and postponing "non-critical" care. (And the problem is that sometimes non-critical care becomes critical if you leave it be for a certain amount of time).

The real problem is that Europeans are not good at locking down. Lockdowns in China meant lockdowns, same goes for quarantines. In Europe? Following strict rules? Nah. Lockdowns have almost always had caveats, quarantines weren't really checked and so many people still had contacts they shouldn't have had. So the virus never really dissapeared and now it has come back with full force while China is doing very well because it pretty much eradicated it by enforcing and following very strict rules.
 

stroopwafel

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First and foremost I wonder where the 99% comes from and what determines who is "at risk"? Because on top of the risk of dying there is the risk of causing permanent damage to your body and people never fully recovering. (That also comes with an economic cost...)
And the NHS is hardly the only healthcare system under enormous pressure and postponing "non-critical" care. (And the problem is that sometimes non-critical care becomes critical if you leave it be for a certain amount of time).

The real problem is that Europeans are not good at locking down. Lockdowns in China meant lockdowns, same goes for quarantines. In Europe? Following strict rules? Nah. Lockdowns have almost always had caveats, quarantines weren't really checked and so many people still had contacts they shouldn't have had. So the virus never really dissapeared and now it has come back with full force while China is doing very well because it pretty much eradicated it by enforcing and following very strict rules.
Post infectious syndromes are pretty common with other kinds of infections as well. Just look at ME or IBS. It also has a largely psychosomatic component.

I'm not surprised China is effective with lockdowns because it's also effective with deportations, 're-education' camps, ethnic cleansing, mass executions and pretty much every other human rights violation you can imagine. Yeah, really an example to aspire too.
 

Generals

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Post infectious syndromes are pretty common with other kinds of infections as well. Just look at ME or IBS. It also has a largely psychosomatic component.

I'm not surprised China is effective with lockdowns because it's also effective with deportations, 're-education' camps, ethnic cleansing, mass executions and pretty much every other human rights violation you can imagine. Yeah, really an example to aspire too.
Really a weird argument to make. The first one doesn't really answer my concern but just arbitrarily dismisses the problem of post infectious issues because it happens with other infections?

As for the second paragraph, I have never said we should emulate China on every aspect of our lives. One can very easily recognize a country is shit in many aspects but did a good job on one particular subject. You complained about the economic costs, well China's method allows its citizens to live "normal lives" (following Chinese standards off course) again. Meanwhile many European countries are now forced to lock down again because their healthcare system is being overwhelmed again. But hey China has re-education camps so we shouldn't be allowed to learn any lessons from them regardless of the subject... Let's dump nuclear energy because China invests in it?
 

stroopwafel

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Really a weird argument to make. The first one doesn't really answer my concern but just arbitrarily dismisses the problem of post infectious issues because it happens with other infections?
Because covid is under a magnifying glass every issue becomes unique to covid when it really isn't. People still die of other infections and also might be left with psychosomatic issues when they recover. For the few people who have this of the hundreds of thousands of infections with mild or no symptoms then for the media this is now suddenly the worst thing in the world, when in the past they showed little to no attention to other post infectious syndroms like I mentioned before. It is the same as with covid deaths. Even when someone is 80 years old with a host of underlying health disorders this would still be one covid death too many. When ofcourse, this metric isn't employed with any other disease or disorder. We also don't shut down traffic because people die in car accidents. And these can be considered totally preventable if people just stayed at home. But you know, at home people might start to develop a malignant tumor somewhere in their body or a bloodvessel in their brain might be about to burst. To be alive is to be at risk for death. Thing is, even at the height of the epidemic covid wasn't even in the top 10 of deaths.

As for the second paragraph, I have never said we should emulate China on every aspect of our lives. One can very easily recognize a country is shit in many aspects but did a good job on one particular subject. You complained about the economic costs, well China's method allows its citizens to live "normal lives" (following Chinese standards off course) again. Meanwhile many European countries are now forced to lock down again because their healthcare system is being overwhelmed again. But hey China has re-education camps so we shouldn't be allowed to learn any lessons from them regardless of the subject... Let's dump nuclear energy because China invests in it?
Lockdowns are symptomatic for an oppressive regime because they can only be enforced through oppressive means. That is why countries who are the 'best' at it also excel at other kind of human rights violations. Also there are other variables involved so it's faulty logic to automatically ascribe the reduced covid cases in China to lockdowns. Lockdowns didn't do jack shit in Spain, Belgium, Italy, France where covid cases immediately surged unlike China. And these lockdowns were definitely enforced by police beating people on the street who broke them. But let's also not forget it's China's disgusting eating habits and animal cruelty that got us in this mess in the first place. Not to mention not closing down on the wet markets even after the first SARS outbreak. So from that perspective alone I wouldn't put any of their policies on a pedestal.
 

Trunkage

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Because covid is under a magnifying glass every issue becomes unique to covid when it really isn't. People still die of other infections and also might be left with psychosomatic issues when they recover. For the few people who have this of the hundreds of thousands of infections with mild or no symptoms then for the media this is now suddenly the worst thing in the world, when in the past they showed little to no attention to other post infectious syndroms like I mentioned before. It is the same as with covid deaths. Even when someone is 80 years old with a host of underlying health disorders this would still be one covid death too many. When ofcourse, this metric isn't employed with any other disease or disorder. We also don't shut down traffic because people die in car accidents. And these can be considered totally preventable if people just stayed at home. But you know, at home people might start to develop a malignant tumor somewhere in their body or a bloodvessel in their brain might be about to burst. To be alive is to be at risk for death. Thing is, even at the height of the epidemic covid wasn't even in the top 10 of deaths.



Lockdowns are symptomatic for an oppressive regime because they can only be enforced through oppressive means. That is why countries who are the 'best' at it also excel at other kind of human rights violations. Also there are other variables involved so it's faulty logic to automatically ascribe the reduced covid cases in China to lockdowns. Lockdowns didn't do jack shit in Spain, Belgium, Italy, France where covid cases immediately surged unlike China. And these lockdowns were definitely enforced by police beating people on the street who broke them. But let's also not forget it's China's disgusting eating habits and animal cruelty that got us in this mess in the first place. Not to mention not closing down on the wet markets even after the first SARS outbreak. So from that perspective alone I wouldn't put any of their policies on a pedestal.
*Looks at the data. Cases went down during a proper lockdown. In EVERY country. Around the world. Cases went up as soon as they started up again*

Hey i don't know whose been feeding you information but get a new source. What you are saying isnt remotely true in the slightest.
 

stroopwafel

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*Looks at the data. Cases went down during a proper lockdown. In EVERY country. Around the world. Cases went up as soon as they started up again*

Hey i don't know whose been feeding you information but get a new source. What you are saying isnt remotely true in the slightest.
I literally said covid cases immediately surged. What is the point of months long lockdowns if it just delays the inevatible at tremendous cost? That is why I also said cases in China going down have little to do with lockdowns but more with other variables like a mutation having made the virus much more infectious in Europe.

 

Trunkage

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I literally said covid cases immediately surged. What is the point of months long lockdowns if it just delays the inevatible at tremendous cost? That is why I also said cases in China going down have little to do with lockdowns but more with other variables like a mutation having made the virus much more infectious in Europe.

To prepare for the surge? It take a while to get resources into to place. China built like 4 hospitals to cater for their surge. Wouldn’t that be something? Business could change the way they do things so when the lockdown lifts going to work doesn’t kill people? Remember flattening the curve so health services could keep up? Like none of that happened in the UK, because Bojo is an idiot. But irrelevant of Bojo locking down now, the UK will self lockdown by itself shortly with all the cases it’s got.
 

Generals

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Because covid is under a magnifying glass every issue becomes unique to covid when it really isn't. People still die of other infections and also might be left with psychosomatic issues when they recover. For the few people who have this of the hundreds of thousands of infections with mild or no symptoms then for the media this is now suddenly the worst thing in the world, when in the past they showed little to no attention to other post infectious syndroms like I mentioned before. It is the same as with covid deaths. Even when someone is 80 years old with a host of underlying health disorders this would still be one covid death too many. When ofcourse, this metric isn't employed with any other disease or disorder. We also don't shut down traffic because people die in car accidents. And these can be considered totally preventable if people just stayed at home. But you know, at home people might start to develop a malignant tumor somewhere in their body or a bloodvessel in their brain might be about to burst. To be alive is to be at risk for death. Thing is, even at the height of the epidemic covid wasn't even in the top 10 of deaths.
You're making a lot of comparisons which shouldn't be made. Car accidents; traffic is highly regulated so that example doesn't suggest we should pretend Covid doesn't exist. Second: again other deseases having post infectious symptoms doesn't matter. This is a highly contagious virus which causes a lot of damage just because of the sheer amount of infections and causes enormous stress on our healthcare system. And the latter will in turn cause other diseases to become more fatal. Unless you're suggesting Hospitals should refuse Covid patients because "screw it"?

Lockdowns are symptomatic for an oppressive regime because they can only be enforced through oppressive means. That is why countries who are the 'best' at it also excel at other kind of human rights violations. Also there are other variables involved so it's faulty logic to automatically ascribe the reduced covid cases in China to lockdowns. Lockdowns didn't do jack shit in Spain, Belgium, Italy, France where covid cases immediately surged unlike China. And these lockdowns were definitely enforced by police beating people on the street who broke them. But let's also not forget it's China's disgusting eating habits and animal cruelty that got us in this mess in the first place. Not to mention not closing down on the wet markets even after the first SARS outbreak. So from that perspective alone I wouldn't put any of their policies on a pedestal.
Any law is symptomatic for an oppressive regime because they can only be enforced through oppressive means.

And lockdowns did do something. But because they were stopped too early and borders reopened with little to no checks the virus kept on creeping around. Specialists now agree "flattening" the curve is just waiting for the next explosion once the conditions are ripe for it. (But at least it gave hospitals and clinics the opportunity to rest a bit and perform "non-critical" care again)
 
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stroopwafel

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To prepare for the surge? It take a while to get resources into to place. China built like 4 hospitals to cater for their surge. Wouldn’t that be something? Business could change the way they do things so when the lockdown lifts going to work doesn’t kill people? Remember flattening the curve so health services could keep up? Like none of that happened in the UK, because Bojo is an idiot. But irrelevant of Bojo locking down now, the UK will self lockdown by itself shortly with all the cases it’s got.
If you consider how easily covid flares up almost as soon as restrictions eases it proves how people are pretty much careless in their behavior. I'm not saying don't social distance(espescially where high and low risk meet like supermarkets) or practice good hygiene(always important). But these indiscriminate lockdowns are evidently pointless and also do a lot of damage. Also the vast majority, like 80% of infections occur at home. Ultimately it's people's own behavior that makes the difference not government oppression, and if people don't want to follow these kind of distancing measures by their own accord you will repeat that same lockdown/flare-up cycle for atleast a decade to come. Covid flares up, governments are frustrated measures don't have desired effect, come up with even stricter oppressive measures, cases go down a bit and then flare up again in no time. It's really just the worst of both worlds.

They know by now who the risk groups are, what the fatality rate is and how covid compares to other diseases. For the vast majority of people it's really not that serious and for those for which it is serious most of the time they have severe comorbidities. More people could be treated at home and risk groups can be quarantined. I mean, doctors even admit many people who have covid at home have worse symptoms than those in hospitals. With healthcare it's also supply creates demand. It doesn't matter how much supply you have or how many billions you throw into it all of it will be used up. Even a heavy slu season will cripple it.
 

Agema

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The British can only dream of having a PM (or government in general) as good as the one Australia has.
The UK has very much got what it voted for.

There were always suspicions about Johnson. He ran against May, and Gove brutally stabbed his leadership bid in the back by telling everyone Johnson was lazy and disorganised, and potentially that really sank Johnson's bid.

May then made him foreign secretary, where he repeatedly embarrassed himself and indeed did turn out to be lazy, disorganised and dubiously competent. Interestingly, around this point, it seems the Tory MPs had gone very cool on Johnson, because his flaws had become unavoidable. Then May eventually collapses (in no small part due to Johnson's undermining of her). The Tories need a new leader, the hard Brexiters are in the ascendant and they are determined to keep power. They have one thought: who's most likely to beat Corbyn? And that was Johnson. They knew he was rubbish, but they needed someone sufficiently Brexity and reasonably popular with the public. They couldn't have predicted covid-19, but their desperation to win ensured that when it hit there was exactly the wrong person to be leading the country in a crisis. And here we are.