Can we talk about the Harassment, please?

[The_Darkness]

Harassment.

Insults. Death threats. Hacking. Doxxing.[footnote]Doxxing means tracking down of people's personal information to display it online - I admit I had to look that one up.[/footnote]

The internet can be a toxic place, and there's been a fair amount of it recently. I mean, we're at the point where "I hope you die in a fire" can be considered a fairly tame response. We're at the point where suicide from online bullying is a recognised problem. We're at the point where we can talk about 'campaigns' of harassment. We're at the point where people - myself included - are afraid of posting online because the venom that might be unleashed. (Seriously - I can guarantee that I'll hesitate over clicking 'post' when I've finished writing this up.)

We're at the point where pointing out that the internet can be toxic is like commenting that the sky has clouds.

This needs to change.

How?

'Don't feed the trolls' only works against, well, individual trolls. If you're facing down a horde, a campaign of harassment... it doesn't really help, as far as I can tell.
'Just ignore it' doesn't work either. I don't have that thick a skin. A single nasty comment in my direction hurts, whether I respond to it or not - I can't imagine what being on the receiving end of a campaign must be like. And ignoring a problem rarely makes it better.

I don't have answers here. Currently I'm operating on a 'Call it out when you see it' policy - when I have the strength to do so. But that's still just a band-aid. It's an attempt to correct the problem when it appears, not stop the problem from arising in the first place.

You might say that the internet is what it is, we can't change it. Anonymity and freedom of speech have made the internet great, even if they come with the cost of making harassment so... easy. But, in the words of the immortal Captain Reynolds: I do not hold to that. I refuse to believe that the internet's hostility is necessary side effect of what makes it such a great place.

This isn't a problem that's going to just go away. And it isn't a problem that's going to be solved without talking about it.

So please - let's talk.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I can agree with hesitating over clicking "post", but not for fear of harassment, for fear of getting into an arguement with someone that isn't interested in what I have to say.

And, yes, "don't feed the trolls"...has that ever worked? That sounds like "ignore the problem and hope it goes away", which works fine if you are concerned about people complaining about the problem, rather than the problem itself, which is true of many, many people. Far too many people would like to see the problem swept under the rug, which, IMHO, is why the problem is so large to begin with.

This needs to be discussed, ignoring problems like this doesn't work.

 

[Parasondox]

I agree that this really does need to be discussed. In the past few weeks and months, when I see those who simply say "Just don't feed the trolls and they will go away", they assume that the end of the matter but it isn't. Even if you ignore them, the abuse will still come and many wont give up. We can't bury our heads in the sand when it comes to harassment, abuse and threats over the internet.

Many also need to stop this mentality of "Well they are famous, they should accept it and deal with it. It happens". Really? Just because they are in the public eye, they should just let it be? No one, no matter what your status is, shouldn't be faced with abuse, harassment or threats. What happened to respect?

Recently there has been hot debates about Scotland's independence between the "Yes" and "No" campaigners. Everyone had a say and rightfully so. Everyone has a right to their opinions. However things got a bit serious with Andy Murray as he tweeted his support for independence and then the backlash came in.The most disturbing was this, "I wish you had been killed in Dunblane".

http://metro.co.uk/2014/09/19/wish-you-had-been-killed-in-dunblane-andy-murray-abused-by-twitter-trolls-after-announcing-support-for-scottish-independence-4874469/

One or two may question why that tweet would be a big deal, well here is a link below that may shine a bit of light on it.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/andy-murray-breaks-his-silence-on-dunblane-school-massacre-8671255.html

You see, this started with one persons thoughts but somehow it turned personal and vile. Too personal in fact. A light debate about something political and yet one person and many others ruin it by crossing a line and pushing buttons that shouldn't be pushed. For what? Because someone disagrees with them? Pathetic. Worse, many will cry, "But it's his right to free speech to say that". Are you sure? I know he probably won't be arrested for it but can you honestly defend that action? Wishing death upon a person? I support free speech, but not when it's used to harm others and create an unneeded battle/war. I can't support harassment, abuse or threats in any form. Physical or verbal and also mental.

Question really is, why do so many get too serious when it comes to a debate? Why is there this "Us versus Them" mentality? Why cross a line into personal abuse and attack? And they think it's okay and fine to do it over the internet?

As I have said many times before Just because it happens, doesn't mean it should..

 

[Thorn14]

You may as well ask "How do we stop people from being pricks?"

Because sadly, there are always going to be jerks who thrive off being vile assholes, since forever.

And I just don't see how anything can be done about it.

 

[The Snark]

Best advice I can give is to learn a valuable Troll lesson. You get mad, you lose. So either learn how not to get mad, or how to recognize it and go for a walk when you do.

Getting angry well and truly makes you stupider, this is not an insult- it's a biological fact true of everyone. So be very very picky about what you allow to infuriate you.

Because if your anger isn't under your control, it's under someone else's.

 

[Thorn14]

I will never understand why people spend so much effort responding to every troll on Twitter.

Twitter is so fascinating in how it brings out our worse sides no matter what. So many people have gotten in trouble saying terrible things on Twitter.

 

[The_Darkness]

SNIP.

Yeah, I heard about the Dunblane comment yesterday. It's one of the reasons I made this thread. Freedom of Speech... doesn't mean this. And it shouldn't mean freedom from consequence.

You may as well ask "How do we stop people from being pricks?"

Because sadly, there are always going to be jerks who thrive off being vile assholes, since forever.

And I just don't see how anything can be done about it.

True. People can be nasty. We can't change that.

But we can try to discourage people from being nasty. And the internet, as it is, really doesn't do that.

 

[Fishyash]

Harassment is just something pricks do, whether it's on the internet or IRL. Hell, people do it enough IRL anyway, it's just easier to do on the internet. There's no discussion as to whether it should happen.

So all in all, I think the TRUE solution doesn't rely in preventing harassment (which each solution I see feels like a band-aid fix) but putting in measures and educating people on how to cope with, or help others cope with harassment could go a long way.

Stuff like keeping your self-esteem in check, and measures to prevent doxxing (within reasonable means). I'm sure there are lots of other things I haven't thought of (especially since I have not been harassed online). Something that people can do to help themselves when there is nobody to turn to for the time being.

 

[dragoongfa]

Being someone who had to bear through harassment in his life I think that I can give my two cents.

What harassment I have been subjected to:

A) Repeated sexual and physical assaults when I was a minor, all done by a psychopathic classmate.

B) Credible death threats on the internet due to relatively visible political presence online, these threats include: A PM that contained a real snuff film, real graphic descriptions on what they will do to me and that I will end up like a certain dead journalist.

The above culminated to a failed doxxing attempt by a fringe far left group that claimed to have connections to Greek domestic terrorists.

C) Physical assault during the Greek occupy movement, this was done by a couple of far left extremists. I am lucky that they didn't know that I was in the online shit list of both the Far Left and the Far Right.

What's the damage from the above:

A) I ended up a manic depressive for a big part of my life. I still get some anxiety attacks when certain idiots cross certain lines with certain crude jokes. Yes that means that I am triggered; no I don't say that to them I just tell them that the joke is stupid (because it usually is).

As an added bonus I now have a deep seated hatred for bullies of any age, sex and type. Certain bullies quickly learned to turn the other way whenever they saw me.

Did I contact the police on this?

Sadly no, this all started when I was 7 and ended when I was 14. Didn't know what I was supposed to do about it. As a kid it was widely considered taboo to snitch at the adults. God I was stupid and what I learned is that parents should pay close attention to the behavior of their children.

B) This one is tricky. I stopped participating in certain political forums not because of the threats themselves but because most of those forums were echo chambers of the same political ideals. None of them had any interest in debating, just to shout at anything they considered the enemy.

Oh boy they did think I was an enemy.

Did I contact the police on this?

Yes, turns out the police were monitoring the forums in question since their inception. Most of those participating in them were on various watchlists, with a handful on the anti terrorism list.

The police didn't know who I was but they knew about what was sent to me, when I contacted them they respected my wish for privacy and we set up an interview on neutral ground. After talking to the officer I realized that the ones who threatened me where psychopaths who really believed themselves as genuine heroes and honest to god revolutionaries who fought the good fight.

What the officer tell me to do?

First of all he told me to increase my online security, never link any private info to certain accounts and to have several online 'personas', one of them truly anonymous and unconnected to real life and one exclusive for RL things that stays away from everything internet related. It was something that I was already doing but for different reasons altogether.

The second thing he advised me was to not advertise the harassment in any way. I quote exactly what he told me "These people are psychopaths, they crave attention and they will do anything to be at the center of it, the more they rile you up and force you to reply the more aroused they become. They don't care about the any damage they do, they only care about the 'arousal' they get."

The police officer in question had a psychology degree and is now a member of the online crimes unit. And what he told me really worked; when I stopped replying to the harassers there was a sizeable increase in the threats both in quantity and quality but after some time they stopped caring and moved back to bicker with each others.

The police know who these particular men and women are and as I said already they are on watch lists. The reason they haven't done anything about them is because there are plenty of sheeple who 'believe' that these special snowflakes are right. Arresting them for harmless stuff posted on the internet? It would cause a small riot.

After a while they got a couple of them for CP distribution and a lot of their supporters went to protest their arrest anyway.

C) Learned that disorganized protest movements are stupid and easily co-opted by extremists unless shouted out by the majority. Lot's of people that went to the occupy movement recognized this as well. The occupy movement died because of them.

If people had rallied to throw them out immediately the movement could have accomplished something.

Did I contact the police?

Yes, gave them a description and they showed me some pictures, turns out that they too were on various watch lists. One was a known anarchist and the other had just come out of jail where he was locked up for robbery. The police advised me not to press charges because the case would be thrown out of court. Not enough evidence and they (the harassers) would bring dozens of their friends as eye witnesses to say that I started it.

So that's my history of harassment, what did I learn?

Those that harass are psychopaths and they do it because they find a sick pleasure in harassing people. They don't care about the cause itself as much as they want to feel 'empowered' when they harass people. The authorities should always be notified in order to find them and at least keep them under watch.

Decrying the harassment is also key if the harassment in question is done in the name of a movement. It won't deter the harassers in any way but the movement will wise up to them and won't offer them any protection.

The harassers tend to have a small circle of like minded individuals who will cover each others tracks. They will also try to present themselves as 'heroes' to the public eye in order to hide their real reasons behind their actions.

Internet harassment is tricky to nail down because of anonymity. In my case the police were watching them for years and had size able files on each one of them. They could nail them but they were forced to stay their hands until they could nail them with something really reprehensible and indefensible because their supporters would try to protect them anyway.

This is not always the case however, the police watched them because Greece had a problem with far left domestic terrorism for years, the Internet allowed the ones with the tendencies to voice them up and 'identify' themselves.

In other cases however, where the harassers are complete unknowns then identifying them and nailing them is almost impossible. The only ways to sideline them is to ignore them while saying that harassment is not condoned in any way or form. It won't do anything to the harassers themselves but the victims and the ones who are unwillingly used as shields will find a semblance of peace by not empowering harassment.

 

[DANEgerous]

That is the thing though I have not found one person that has not talked about harassment and they have all been actively opposed to it and most also victims of it. I mean when I look at the people I watch in games media I can not find a single one to condone Zoe Quinn nor Phil Fish being Doxxed despite the fact they nearly universally dislike them. Most have made it a priority to speak against it. It need to stop but the problem is the only ones who would disagree are often criminals or at very least black hat hackers.

 

[DANEgerous]

The second thing he advised me was to not advertise the harassment in any way. I quote exactly what he told me "These people are psychopaths, they crave attention and they will do anything to be at the center of it, the more they rile you up and force you to reply the more aroused they become. They don't care about the any damage they do, they only care about the 'arousal' they get."

By the way there have been a lot of people saying others have faked their harassment, one of the main reasons is the intentionally reblog, tweet and post this harassment any and every place they can, even making quips on how good they got the people for posting such things. Now while their actions are by no means proof they had faked this attack it does show they are intentionally ignoring the advice they would have got from law enforcement. If you see some one reposing harassment tel them to stop, it is not victim blaming it is keeping them from playing in to the hand of the people doing the harassment.

 

[Inglorious891]

Harassment.

Insults. Death threats. Hacking. Doxxing.[footnote]Doxxing means tracking down of people's personal information to display it online - I admit I had to look that one up.[/footnote]

The internet can be a toxic place, and there's been a fair amount of it recently. I mean, we're at the point where "I hope you die in a fire" can be considered a fairly tame response. We're at the point where suicide from online bullying is a recognised problem. We're at the point where we can talk about 'campaigns' of harassment. We're at the point where people - myself included - are afraid of posting online because the venom that might be unleashed. (Seriously - I can guarantee that I'll hesitate over clicking 'post' when I've finished writing this up.)

We're at the point where pointing out that the internet can be toxic is like commenting that the sky has clouds.

This needs to change.

How?

'Don't feed the trolls' doesn't work anymore. It's just led to people realising that they can silence you by insulting you.
'Just ignore it' doesn't work either. I don't have that thick a skin. A single nasty comment in my direction hurts, whether I respond to it or not - I can't imagine what being on the receiving end of a campaign must be like. And ignoring a problem rarely makes it better.

I don't have answers here. Currently I'm operating on a 'Call it out when you see it' policy - when I have the strength to do so. But that's still just a band-aid. It's an attempt to correct the problem when it appears, not stop the problem from arising in the first place.

You might say that the internet is what it is, we can't change it. Anonymity and freedom of speech have made the internet great, even if they come with the cost of making harassment so... easy. But, in the words of the immortal Captain Reynolds: I do not hold to that. I refuse to believe that the internet's hostility is necessary side effect of what makes it such a great place.

This isn't a problem that's going to just go away. And it isn't a problem that's going to be solved without talking about it.

So please - let's talk.

I actually made a thread talking about this same issue awhile ago. If I remember correctly, the realistic and beneficial ideas to ending harassment were muting the less annoying people (people who just scream mindless crap) and encouraging people to hold others to a high standard, with the goal of weeding out those who send death/rape/etc. threats.

The other conclusion would be tougher laws and more enforcement on people who are dicks online, but there are way too many ways a system like that could end up creating a bigger problem then harassment online could ever be, so there's no way I could support that.

SNIP.

And the internet, as it is, really doesn't do that.

Certain parts of the internet doesn't do that. Outside of 4chan, list a few websites where harassment is discouraged or even actively encouraged; I honestly can't think of any.

The issue isn't that the internet doesn't discourage assholery, the issue is that the message of, "don't be a dick" only gets around to parts of the internet that already believe in that idea. Until you can, for example, broadcast that message over CoD's servers, and in a way where people will actually listen, harassment online isn't going to stop.

 

[1Life0Continues]

One of the things a lot of people don't seem to fully grasp is the far reaching repercussions that harassment and other 'it's just the Internet' activities actually cause.

[blockquote]"Cyber harassment victims are at a distinct disadvantage when they look for new jobs. Most employers rely on candidates online reputation as an employment screen. According to a 2009 Microsoft study, nearly 80 percent of employers consult search engines to collect intelligence on job applicants, and about 70 percent of the time they reject applicants due to their findings.

Common reasons for not interviewing and hiring applicants include concerns about their "lifestyle," "inappropriate" on-line comments, and "unsuitable" photographs, videos, and other information about them. According to the social media firm Reppler, 90 percent of employers conduct online searches for prospective hires.

Job applicants usually do not get a chance to explain destructive posts to employers searching them online. Recruiters do not contact them to see if they actually posted nude photos of themselves or if someone else did. They do not inquire about defamatory falsehoods posted online. Targeted individuals cannot refute claims that they harbor rape fantasies, suffer from sexually transmitted infections, or have a poor job history.
[sub][source: http://www.newsweek.com/internet-and-golden-age-bully-271800][/sub][/blockquote]

Seriously. It needs to stop. It needs to be called out. This shit ruins lives, and simply saying 'ignore it' is not helping. It's tacit acceptance and it's why it continues to happen. You don't get to opt out. With the reliance on the Internet being so much these days, there comes a point when people need to accept that they cannot do these things anymore and get away with it.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

I'm pretty sure doxxing, DDoS attacks, swatting, and death threats are all illegal. (so is verbal harassmen if you think it's worth filing for a restraining order) Those things are not a result of free speech.
Free speech does pretty much afford you the right to be a dick though. Bullying is still against most sites' TOS but just saying mean things to someone is still legally protected right within certain parameters. You kinda just have to suck that one up.

As for the things that are illegal (or should be) the problems I see right now are
1: the internet is still "new" and most politicians and lawmakers are too old to understand what, for example, Doxxing or a DDoS attack is. (assuming those things aren't by some definition, illegal already)

2: The internet is international. There was an incident a while ago where somebody got a youtuber swatted by police for calling in a shooting/hostage situation posing as the "shooter." Since they were outside of the US, no action could be taken to my knowledge, even though they know who this person is

3: the internet is, well, the internet. Anyone who knows their shit can make themselves pretty hard to track down for this stuff and that's assuming the police/FBI care enough to even try to look for them.

 

[Parasondox]

One of the things a lot of people don't seem to fully grasp is the far reaching repercussions that harassment and other 'it's just the Internet' activities actually cause.

[blockquote]"Cyber harassment victims are at a distinct disadvantage when they look for new jobs. Most employers rely on candidates online reputation as an employment screen. According to a 2009 Microsoft study, nearly 80 percent of employers consult search engines to collect intelligence on job applicants, and about 70 percent of the time they reject applicants due to their findings.

Common reasons for not interviewing and hiring applicants include concerns about their "lifestyle," "inappropriate" on-line comments, and "unsuitable" photographs, videos, and other information about them. According to the social media firm Reppler, 90 percent of employers conduct online searches for prospective hires.

Job applicants usually do not get a chance to explain destructive posts to employers searching them online. Recruiters do not contact them to see if they actually posted nude photos of themselves or if someone else did. They do not inquire about defamatory falsehoods posted online. Targeted individuals cannot refute claims that they harbor rape fantasies, suffer from sexually transmitted infections, or have a poor job history.
[sub][source: http://www.newsweek.com/internet-and-golden-age-bully-271800][/sub][/blockquote]

Seriously. It needs to stop. It needs to be called out. This shit ruins lives, and simply saying 'ignore it' is not helping. It's tacit acceptance and it's why it continues to happen. You don't get to opt out. With the reliance on the Internet being so much these days, there comes a point when people need to accept that they cannot do these things anymore and get away with it.

Those are some high percentages and actually quite scary. So if an ex bad mouthed you and called you many and untrue things, the employer wouldn't even question if they were untrue or not and just reject your application? F THAT!!

Does that happen in the US because the EU is trying to pass a law about online information. That if any information about you that is over seven years old is on the web, you can't find it via Google search. However, if an employer wants to find said information, they just have to dig deeper. Either way it's still wrong for employers to look at your social media pages and others just to see what you or there wrote about you.

 

[totheendofsin]

Well dealing with trolls who are saying hurtful things to you is tricky, people say 'don't feed the trolls' doesn't work, though it's the most effective way to deal with them in my experience. The problem with calling them out is it's a reaction, which is exactly what they want, the bigger the better too so the more people who call them out the more they feel like they've won which means they will likely do it again. It's not an ideal solution, but 'don't feed the trolls' is the best one I've found.

things like death threats, doxxing, etc you need to go to the police about, and they will almost certainly advise against going public with it.

 

[Parasondox]

Don't try to be a celebrity if you're not ready for the burdens it brings.
There, problem solved.

That was helpful. So, if they had their personal information hacked and broadcast, that they considered private, they should just suck it up?

 

[Starbird]

Best advice I can give is to learn a valuable Troll lesson. You get mad, you lose. So either learn how not to get mad, or how to recognize it and go for a walk when you do.

Getting angry well and truly makes you stupider, this is not an insult- it's a biological fact true of everyone. So be very very picky about what you allow to infuriate you.

Because if your anger isn't under your control, it's under someone else's.

When someone hacks into my stuff, acquires my real life details and begins making direct threats to my family then yes - I'm going to get mad. And I don't think I'm unusual for doing this.

What needs to happen is everyone involved, from the people who run the forums/servers/whatever to make all the details possible known about individuals who do this kind of sick shit to the authorities.