Censorship - Make Up Your Mind!

[Shio]

I'm pretty sure everyone here on The Escapist is against banning video games that are violent or that someone finds offensive. Games like Call of Duty, Duke Nukem, Doom, Quake, Mass Effect and Grand Theft Auto come under a lot of flack due to their depiction of realistic violence (as realistic as a video game can be, that is to say), sex, nudity and drug use, and allow the player to engage in the acts. Most gamers I know reply with something along the lines of "it's not hurting anyone. If you don't like it, don't play it or let your kids play it." Far be it from someone to censor an artistic endeavorer because they themselves find it offensive and/or disgusting if no one is actually being harmed, eh?

With this is in mind, I find it a mixture of hilarious and enraging that the forum is almost universally sighing in relief as The Human Centipede 2 comes under the wrath of censorship. Why? Because they personally find the matter repugnant, offensive, disgusting and unartistic. Wait... that sounds a lot like the argument against violent video games... Weird... It's almost like anything we (gamers) like is fine to produce and sell to adults, regardless of how repulsive it is to others, but whatever we dislike, well, censor that to hell! It's evil and disgusting! No one should be able to see it!

Clearly we (gamers) have the right to decide for others what others cannot decide for us. Ah yes. Hypocrisy never looked so clear.

As I posted in another thread:

Because it's way cool to tell other adults what they can and can't enjoy so long as it hurts no one, right? Hear that, parents against video games? You can totally ban violent video games that you dislike and find offensive.

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What?

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Nah, it's cool - they ban anything they find disgusting too.

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Yeah, I know. Pretty hypocritical of them, huh.

Discussion value: your thoughts? Justifications for or against?

 

[Outright Villainy]

Humans are hypocritical creatures, through and through.
As for the Human Centipede, yes it's true I don't care as much that it's censored since it's utterly vile, but still, I will be against the censorship on principle.

 

[Shio]

Humans are hypocritical creatures, through and through.
As for the Human Centipede, yes it's true I don't care as much that it's censored since it's utterly vile, but still, I will be against the censorship on principle.

I'm against it also on principle. The first one was fairly boring in my opinion, so I don't expect the second to hold my interest either. It just blows my mind that a so called 'artistic' community, all for the advancement of video game rights and against censoring things purely because some dislike it, can turn around on a dime and be glad something is banned because it disgusts them.

 

[Kiefer13]

I'm against censorship on principle. Adults should be able to decide for themselves what they read/watch/play etc. Disgust is a subjective reaction, and nothing should ever be censored or banned just because some people find it disgusting. As I said in the Human Centipede thread, if you don't want to go and see it, the solution is simple: Don't go and see it.

 

[Shio]

I'm against censorship on principle. Adults should be able to decide for themselves what they read/watch/play etc. Disgust is a subjective reaction, and nothing should ever be censored or banned just because some people find it disgusting. As I said in the Human Centipede thread, if you don't want to go and see it, the solution is simple: Don't go and see it.

Why is this not the common mentality?

 

[Sylvine]

Well, people can be glad something happens even though they don't support it?

Then, there's also gut reaction.

In Germany, there's a very remarkable phenomenon tied to that notion. Most people here support freedom of speech and similar values, but have a blind spot when it comes to anything even remotely resembling nazi ideology. It's like "Everyone has a right to his own opinion, no matter how stupid we think it is except for them NPD bastards, seriously, they ought to be shot!" Sure, there's an understandable stigma here, but it's still interesting how quickly universal principles can be dropped due to a gut reaction.

Before anyone points it out - no, other anti-constitutional groups are not even nearly as shunned, so that's not a viable argument

~Sylv

 

[TheEverix]

I'm against censorship on principle. Adults should be able to decide for themselves what they read/watch/play etc. Disgust is a subjective reaction, and nothing should ever be censored or banned just because some people find it disgusting. As I said in the Human Centipede thread, if you don't want to go and see it, the solution is simple: Don't go and see it.

Why is this not the common mentality?

Because common mentality is "I AM OUTRAGED AND IF YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY TO ME YOU ARE WRONG AND A HORRIBLE PERSON!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!"...meaning people are self-righteous and common sense isn't. Everyone thinks they know best for everybody else, and freedom of speech only applies to them, not you.

 

[Shio]

I'm against censorship on principle. Adults should be able to decide for themselves what they read/watch/play etc. Disgust is a subjective reaction, and nothing should ever be censored or banned just because some people find it disgusting. As I said in the Human Centipede thread, if you don't want to go and see it, the solution is simple: Don't go and see it.

Why is this not the common mentality?

Because common mentality is "I AM OUTRAGED AND IF YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY TO ME YOU ARE WRONG AND A HORRIBLE PERSON!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!"...meaning people are self-righteous and common sense isn't. Everyone thinks they know best for everybody else, and freedom of speech only applies to them, not you.

I honestly thought we (The Escapist) where better than that...

 

[Thaluikhain]

Why is this surprising?

People tend to oppose things they like being censored, not things they don't.

Presumably there's some forum dedicated to rubbish horror movies up in arms about the Human Centipede 2 being banned, but supporting a ban of Mortal Kombat.

When people demand free speech, they are talking about their own freedoms, and anyone who disagrees should shut up.

 

[zaly]

I think the difference is that the content of Human Centipede 2 seems much much worse than the content of games, and other films.
Violent video games / films are usually either realistic and therefore necessary for the story, e.g. crime scenes in LA Noire, arm cutting in 127 hours.
They are sometimes completely over the top and therefore hard to take seriously, e.g. Duke Nukem, BrainDead.
Even games / films that have lots of gore and violence just to have lots of gore and violence I don't think should be censored, e.g. Mortal Kombat, Saw series, hell even the first Human Centipede.

The difference why I don't think these should be censored, but am happy Human Centipede 2 is, is that it is being set up as more than a film, e.g. the plot is about a psychopath who is obsessed with the first film, and tries to recreate it.

An example for games would be a new hypothetical Manhunt game. Remember the controversy that it caused, but in the end it was just a game and in my opinion shouldn't be censored. Imagine playing a new game where you play as an ordinary person who was obsessed with Manhunt, and goes on to slaughter innocent people in "the real world" (ie the game is set in the real world, and you go around killing people because the plot is your character really liked the game Manhunt).

I also believe this would be a step too far, and would not be disappointed if a game like this was banned.

I think this is at least part of the difference between why people seem to draw the line at Human Centipede 2, whilst defending violent video games.

And I haven't even mentioned the part where the main character gets off on his sick deeds!

 

[Shio]

I think the difference is that the content of Human Centipede 2 seems much much worse than the content of games, and other films.
Violent video games / films are usually either realistic and therefore necessary for the story, e.g. crime scenes in LA Noire, arm cutting in 127 hours.
They are sometimes completely over the top and therefore hard to take seriously, e.g. Duke Nukem, BrainDead.
Even games / films that have lots of gore and violence just to have lots of gore and violence I don't think should be censored, e.g. Mortal Kombat, Saw series, hell even the first Human Centipede.

The difference why I don't think these should be censored, but am happy Human Centipede 2 is, is that it is being set up as more than a film, e.g. the plot is about a psychopath who is obsessed with the first film, and tries to recreate it.

An example for games would be a new hypothetical Manhunt game. Remember the controversy that it caused, but in the end it was just a game and in my opinion shouldn't be censored. Imagine playing a new game where you play as an ordinary person who was obsessed with Manhunt, and goes on to slaughter innocent people in "the real world" (ie the game is set in the real world, and you go around killing people because the plot is your character really liked the game Manhunt).

I also believe this would be a step too far, and would not be disappointed if a game like this was banned.

I think this is at least part of the difference between why people seem to draw the line at Human Centipede 2, whilst defending violent video games.

And I haven't even mentioned the part where the main character gets off on his sick deeds!

All of that is subjective. None of it is truth and none of it can be used as a reason to prevent others from viewing it.

If you dislike something, don't watch it.

Know what I find disgusting? Homophobia. Should that therefore be banned from all movies and games? Hell no.

 

[crotchdot]

Why is this surprising?

I don't think it's surprising, but it's always disappointing when someone celebrates censorship, it sets a dangerous precedent. This time it may be something they don't personally like, but what about next time?

In Australia at the moment we seem to have anti-smoking stories in the newspaper every other day, and the comment sections online quickly fill with people calling for smoking to be banned completely, even in your own home. The argument usually amounts to opponents not wanting their tax dollars paying for the hospital bills of smokers. Of course this exact same argument could be used as a reason to ban alcohol consumption. Funnily enough, I never hear anyone suggesting that, and I think it's obvious why.

I'm not a smoker, nor will I see Human Centipede 2. But if anyone wants to do either, I support their right.

 

[Sylvine]

The difference why I don't think these should be censored, but am happy Human Centipede 2 is, is that it is being set up as more than a film, e.g. the plot is about a psychopath who is obsessed with the first film, and tries to recreate it.

However, it's pretty much the only artistic merit the film has, at least as far as I can see it without watching the film itself.

Compare it to the countless killer-inspired-by-bible-thrillers. The premise there is basically, a real-life person takes a real-life work of fiction and does something horrible. Wow, the very same premise we have with HC2. Okay, with the bible instead of a crappy movie, but still. Hell, compare it to Se7en. That's a classic, yet it has a similar premise (minus grotesque sexual fet--- oh, wait, nevermind).

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure there are better examples, though I don't know any. And failing fiction, we always have real-life. They're called copycats. You know, murderous scumbags who watch a movie about Jack the Ripper and think it would be cool to do some modern re-enactment?
I actually thing the writers of HC2 scored well there. As I said in the HC2 thread, from what I can read, the protagonist of HC2 is a perfectly believable copycat. As in, he's exactly what the public would imagine a HC "fan" to be. So leaving everything else aside, well-done there. The premise is good horror. People want this movie banned because they are scared it could encourage copycats? It's a horror about the first HC encouraging a copycat. Mission accomplished!

Is there a big difference in the fact that HC2 directors use a definite work of fiction as a reference in their new work of fiction? Yes, on a "matrix-within-matrix"-level; it's a stunt, a pretty smart, but ultimately cheap attempt to blow our minds. But there's no real merit in the fact that "this time, it's about a real-world person". Hello? It always is. In any horror or thriller worth its salt, there have to be a plethora of recognizable elements from the real world in order for the horror to work. And I'm talking about psychological horror, not jump-in-front-of-screen-and-screech-movies. Come to think of it, wasn't the setting of the first movie some german town or whatever? As in, hey, the "real world"?

What HC2 does is basically say "Hey, our LAST movie was about a fictive sadistic psychopath, but THIS one, this one is TOTALLY about a fictive sadistic psychopath in the REAL WORLD!". And the funny thing is, it actually works before You stop to think about it. People grant it more, I dunno, "weight", just because they think a movie about a movie has to be some sort of documentary, right? Even though it's evidently just a slasher/shocker horror flick.

And I hope everyone can make a distinction here. I'm not defending a movie I've never seen and don't plan to view; it's probably pretty crappy and reminds me negatively of hostel (all shock, no plot). I'm just making an argument for how it's NOT that much different and "more banworthy" than most other thrillers/horrors.

~Sylv

 

[Ragsnstitches]

As long as no physical harm/trauma befalls anyone intentionally(beyond the individual) then as far as I'm concerned, people can do whatever the well please.

For films and games? Use common sense. If it looks, smells and sounds like you might not like it... you probably won't like it. If you take utmost offence to something, well... only your morbid curiosity is to blame.

Parents should be fucking parents and filter the inappropriate stuff out. Our existence is not meant to cater for the youth of the future.

Then I woke up and had breakfeast.

EDIT: However, don't get me wrong... if I think something is foul and decadent, god dammit I'm going to let people know. I just won't demand it cease existing.

 

[Justice Shades]

I absolutely agree. In rushing to express their disgust at The Human Centipede, people seem to be missing the point. Obscenity is not, in my view, sufficient grounds to ban something, because it's so damn subjective. Doubtless there are people in the world who find the things you enjoy obscene. Who decides where the line is?

Either it's all okay, or none of it is, or else we're all hypocrites.

 

[Sylvine]

It has just been brought to my attention that there is, indeed, a difference between refused classification and censorship, as well as refused classification and a ban. It's not like it's released in a strongly cut version (like many games are), or not released at all (like some games are), it's just not released for public screening. If that's true, there's no hypocrisy involved, at least not necessarily.

Whether the fact it's not released for public screening can be counted as censorship, or indeed whether it's justified or not, is another debate, though.

~Sylv

 

[Rewdalf]

Wait, am I missing the point here?
I think the human centipede is disgusting as hell, but why should we censor it?
It's a movie, correct? I'm just not going to go and watch it...
I have the power to avoid it, and whoever wants to go see it can do so...

 

[DesiPrinceX09]

HUMAN CENTIPEDE 2!? THEY MADE A SEQUEL TO THAT HORRIBLENESS!? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! NO HUMAN SHOULD WATCH THAT MOVIE!!! BAN IT! BAN IT!!! BAN IT!!!!

Ahem...I apologize for that outburst that was not really an outburst. Anyways, hypocrisy gotta love it. I find it hilarious that games like Mortal Kombat get banned but then they still show much worse stuff on TV. What I also find hilarious is that Saudi Arabia's banned games list is much smaller than Australia's even though people think they censor everything because they're zealous and blah blah blah.