D&D: Time vs Level

[Saelune]

So, when 5th Edition came out, I was the first to DM. We played to a point and stopped, took a break to have my brother DM, and some other stuff, then back to my campaign.

And we're still on it, and the party is almost level 9. And it feels like its taking forever.

Partly cause in 3.5, I hated adhoc xp and all that, so I just gave arbitrary amounts of xp for everything, and I assure you, it was always too much. The party leveled up almost every session or two. With 5E though, I actually try to follow the rules more closely.

Part of it is likely due to not being as combat heavy as it could.

Anyways, what do you, as players, or as DMs, feel is an appropriate speed of leveling? Do you measure it by time played? Do you just prefer leveling up sooner than later, or dont mind it taking time?

What methods do you prefer for getting XP? If a DM, how do you give it out?

Im mostly talking DnD here, cause I know it, and dont know how other games might deal with it, but anything relevant is fine really.

And Im just looking for YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCES (and maybe your fellow group members who arent here).

 

[Sonmi]

Gauge it yourself, distribute it according to your own feelings, it should allow you to truly decide the pace at which the party levels up.

Take the time to plan ahead though, fix a certain limit of XP you'd be willing to distribute before the session begins so that you won't go overboard. Stick to it.

Personally, I prefer campaigns where the PC level up slowly, lets players have a better taste of what each stage of the character progression is.

 

[SupahEwok]

In general, I give 'em a level per arc. No counting individual experience points, just after they've had an adventure, give 'em the level. Usually end up being a level every 5-6 sessions. So from level 1 to 20 is 100-120 sessions, which is about 2 years if you play every week, and of course that generally ends up falling through, so call it more like 3 years. Highly unlikely for the campaign to ever last that long, we'd want to move on and let everybody change it up with new characters.

I find counting experience points and planning a campaign around their distribution tedious.

Edit: actually now that I think about it, it ends up being more like 8-12 sessions for an arc. Whatever. Points still stand as is.

 

[Saelune]

In general, I give 'em a level per arc. No counting individual experience points, just after they've had an adventure, give 'em the level. Usually end up being a level every 5-6 sessions. So from level 1 to 20 is 100-120 sessions, which is about 2 years if you play every week, and of course that generally ends up falling through, so call it more like 3 years. Highly unlikely for the campaign to ever last that long, we'd want to move on and let everybody change it up with new characters.

I find counting experience points and planning a campaign around their distribution tedious.

Years...ugh. We have too many ideas for campaigns. We rarely get beyond level 3. I really intend to push, atleast when I DM, to finish campaigns, but I also have a continued world. In this current one I am setting up background plot for a later one, and alot of the events on this are based on a solo one I am doing with my brother.

My current idea is to divide it into parts. We're on part 2. Part 1 ended with a defeated main antagonist at level 6 or 7, then they jumped into a mysterious portal as the building collapsed. But now they are dealing with a new antagonist who was controlling the previous one.

I used to intend it to be a whole campaign, 1 to 20, usually with the main bad guys perhaps too early revealed, that it just was alot of filler really. I have been constantly trying to adapt and think of better ways to run my games, hence all these DnD topics.

As for counting XP, well, I been thinking of doing it where I take all the XP it takes for a level, and use that as a spending pool for encounters. Currently the party always gets XP as a group, so it could work for that. But I also dont plan as much specific stuff, rather just write out a plot outline, cause anytime I craft some elaborate encounter, they find a way to ignore, miss, or destroy it too easily. Though after last night, the next thing is a battle with Night Hags, so I should probably get elaborate with that.

 

[happyninja42]

Anyways, what do you, as players, or as DMs, feel is an appropriate speed of leveling?

I don't really, I'm more interested in the story being told, and don't really worry about the mechanics of it. I also haven't touched D&D since 3.0, so I can't really judge based on that scale. I have however, been GMing the Star Wars roleplaying game from Fantasy Flight Games. I usually try to give them enough points in a session, to let them buy one new upgrade a session. A rule of thumb many devs have expressed, that a lot of GM's of that system like is "5xp per 1 hour of solid gameplay, with minimal goofing off" I also tend to give bonus xp when the players act especially in character, or come up with something really awesome, or in general, just amuse me with their antics. So they usually get about 20-30xp a session. Obviously this might not translate well for you, as your xp progression directly ties to a level system, and the FFG system doesn't use levels so....yeah *shrugs*.

Do you measure it by time played? Do you just prefer leveling up sooner than later, or dont mind it taking time?

Again, I don't really measure it. I think an important question to ask yourself, and your players, does it feel like the game experience would be improved if they leveled faster? Is your story, dependent on them being a certain level by the time they reach X point in the narrative? If so, then you need to structure your xp rewards so they reach that goal.

However, I would like to think, that the story you are trying to tell with your campaign, is independent of their level yes? That no matter their level, you could tell this story, and they could still find challenge with it,and enjoy the drama? If you answer yes to these questions, then what does it matter how quickly they level? If the entire focus of the game,and the player's interest, is simply on leveling (and not your story), then maybe you should rethink what you are trying to get out of the game itself?

What methods do you prefer for getting XP? If a DM, how do you give it out?

For systems like yours, I've heard some schools of thought that say "they should level up every 4 sessions or so". That means that you would be giving 25% of a level's xp every session. Which, doesn't seem too bad to me, depending on how often you get together to game. Is it once a month? Once a week? If it's once a week, your players would be leveling roughly once a month, which doesn't seem too fast to me.

Im mostly talking DnD here, cause I know it, and dont know how other games might deal with it, but anything relevant is fine really.

And Im just looking for YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCES (and maybe your fellow group members who arent here).

Yeah, ask your players if they feel they are leveling too slow. If they say it's fine, then don't change anything. If they agree with you, that it feels like they are taking forever, then come to some agreement on what would work for the party. The above mentioned "4 sessions = 1 level" rule perhaps, or possibly give out bonus exp for exceptional roleplaying and creative problem solving. Seriously, you want to get your players more invested in the game, and coming up with fun, dramatic, and cinematic-esque actions for your story? Give them a reward for doing so. Things will change from. "I go through the door and draw my sword" to "I kick in the door, run across the room and leap onto the table. As I brandish my blade I challenge the Duke to combat for his crimes against his people! Demanding that tonight, his reign of tyranny is at an end!" I don't know about you, but I live for that kind of fun shit in my games. And I'm more than happy to reward players for doing that kind of thing.

So yeah, 2 cents, that's mine. Hope that helps.

 

[Saelune]

Anyways, what do you, as players, or as DMs, feel is an appropriate speed of leveling?

I don't really, I'm more interested in the story being told, and don't really worry about the mechanics of it. I also haven't touched D&D since 3.0, so I can't really judge based on that scale. I have however, been GMing the Star Wars roleplaying game from Fantasy Flight Games. I usually try to give them enough points in a session, to let them buy one new upgrade a session. A rule of thumb many devs have expressed, that a lot of GM's of that system like is "5xp per 1 hour of solid gameplay, with minimal goofing off" I also tend to give bonus xp when the players act especially in character, or come up with something really awesome, or in general, just amuse me with their antics. So they usually get about 20-30xp a session. Obviously this might not translate well for you, as your xp progression directly ties to a level system, and the FFG system doesn't use levels so....yeah *shrugs*.

Do you measure it by time played? Do you just prefer leveling up sooner than later, or dont mind it taking time?

Again, I don't really measure it. I think an important question to ask yourself, and your players, does it feel like the game experience would be improved if they leveled faster? Is your story, dependent on them being a certain level by the time they reach X point in the narrative? If so, then you need to structure your xp rewards so they reach that goal.

However, I would like to think, that the story you are trying to tell with your campaign, is independent of their level yes? That no matter their level, you could tell this story, and they could still find challenge with it,and enjoy the drama? If you answer yes to these questions, then what does it matter how quickly they level? If the entire focus of the game,and the player's interest, is simply on leveling (and not your story), then maybe you should rethink what you are trying to get out of the game itself?

What methods do you prefer for getting XP? If a DM, how do you give it out?

For systems like yours, I've heard some schools of thought that say "they should level up every 4 sessions or so". That means that you would be giving 25% of a level's xp every session. Which, doesn't seem too bad to me, depending on how often you get together to game. Is it once a month? Once a week? If it's once a week, your players would be leveling roughly once a month, which doesn't seem too fast to me.

Im mostly talking DnD here, cause I know it, and dont know how other games might deal with it, but anything relevant is fine really.

And Im just looking for YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCES (and maybe your fellow group members who arent here).

Yeah, ask your players if they feel they are leveling too slow. If they say it's fine, then don't change anything. If they agree with you, that it feels like they are taking forever, then come to some agreement on what would work for the party. The above mentioned "4 sessions = 1 level" rule perhaps, or possibly give out bonus exp for exceptional roleplaying and creative problem solving. Seriously, you want to get your players more invested in the game, and coming up with fun, dramatic, and cinematic-esque actions for your story? Give them a reward for doing so. Things will change from. "I go through the door and draw my sword" to "I kick in the door, run across the room and leap onto the table. As I brandish my blade I challenge the Duke to combat for his crimes against his people! Demanding that tonight, his reign of tyranny is at an end!" I don't know about you, but I live for that kind of fun shit in my games. And I'm more than happy to reward players for doing that kind of thing.

So yeah, 2 cents, that's mine. Hope that helps.

Ugh, Im so lazy when it comes to quoting...

Anyways. 5x per hour? What is the scale in that game? I assume its alot smaller than DnD 5E, cause 5xp is basically kicking a rock really well. (The lowest challange rating of 0 still gives 10xp)

As for my group, well, I am the RP person. I honestly dont care for combat too much...in anything really. Its part of why I DM more, cause atleast I can RP the combat, cause they do like combat way more than me. I am fine with the speed of things, but they might not be, and it usually helps for the whole group to have fun, not just some. Though easier said than done.

I want to give out RP xp, but I want it to be balanced with 5e. In 3.5 I gave RP xp all the time, but again, I gave out xp far too freely then. I need to determine a way to apply challenge ratings to RP, to use that, but Im not sure what a good measurement of that would be. (Since you havent played 5th, Im not expecting you to have an answer)

 

[happyninja42]

Ugh, Im so lazy when it comes to quoting...

LAZY HIPSTER SLACKER!!!

Anyways. 5x per hour? What is the scale in that game? I assume its alot smaller than DnD 5E, cause 5xp is basically kicking a rock really well. (The lowest challange rating of 0 still gives 10xp)

Well, like I said, the system doesn't use levels, it uses skills and talents to represent progression. Think of it sort of like skill trees in a game like WoW, where you buy 1 talent, which links to other talents, that you can then buy, that link to others, etc. The talents building off each other to make you very effective and specialized in a handful of scenarios. Instead of costing a skill point from a level up, it's simply an exp cost. The first tier talents cost 5-10xp, tier 2 are usually 10-15xp, etc, down to the bottom tier (5th), which are usually 25-30xp. You also have skills (ranged light, unarmed, computers, charm, diplomacy, etc), and they have a 5 dot progression system, similar to the World of Darkness system if you know that system. Those cost increasingly more xp, 5xp for the first rank, 10 for the 2nd, etc. So the system, like i said, doesn't really translate well for a D20 system.

As for my group, well, I am the RP person. I honestly dont care for combat too much...in anything really. Its part of why I DM more, cause atleast I can RP the combat, cause they do like combat way more than me. I am fine with the speed of things, but they might not be, and it usually helps for the whole group to have fun, not just some. Though easier said than done.

Then see my above comment about asking them. It's a group effort, and a group dynamic. Ask them if they are comfortable with the progression rate. If they say yes, then your feeling that it's not going fast enough is all in your head, and you can just ignore it.

I want to give out RP xp, but I want it to be balanced with 5e.

Why is this important? To keep it balanced? It's your game, run it how you like. Change whatever rules you want if it improves the gaming experience for the party. And exactly what do you mean by "keep it balanced"? Balanced in what context? The CR for the encounters? Well, if they are leveling so fast you think they will steamroll the creatures you pit them against, throw tougher creatures at them. xD I mean, in the end, how much exp they get doesn't impact your CR, until they level up again. So you always have specific tiers of difficulty you can predict. A lvl 8 PC with 1 more xp point above the minimum to be lvl 8, is just as lethal as a lvl 8 PC who is only 1xp short of being lvl 9, so how quickly the progress really only impacts how often you need to beef up your encounter tables.

In 3.5 I gave RP xp all the time, but again, I gave out xp far too freely then.

You've said this twice now, the "too freely" thing, as if you were breaking some rule or something. Who says you gave it out too freely? Why is this a bad thing to give out RP xp? Did the overall gaming experience improve for everyone involved? Seriously, what negative effect happened from you being a generous GM? I fail to see how this is a problem in any capacity. The only person whose opinion matters about that is yours, as the GM. And if you feel that you were too generous, I mean, ok? Fine? But if you didn't mind how quickly they advanced, then where is the harm? I just, really don't see a problem in giving out xp if nobody is being negatively impacted, especially not xp specifically rewarded to encourage roleplay and enriching the story. To me, that's a win win no matter how you slice it.

I need to determine a way to apply challenge ratings to RP, to use that, but Im not sure what a good measurement of that would be. (Since you havent played 5th, Im not expecting you to have an answer)

Well, if you don't want to give out XP, but you want to reward them for roleplaying, give them something else. Give them some bonus action on the next session. Perhaps the Face character for the party, did a really impressive scam on someone, getting the party in and out of a situation with minimal risk and danger, and did so with flair and panache! Great! Next session, give him some "get out of jail free" reward, above and beyond the rules. Perhaps he gets to reroll any one social roll, regardless of having any ability to do so regularly, perhaps in the form of some one use magic item that he can keep and use later. Or perhaps, let him earn the favor of the local magistrate, since he spearheaded the rescue attempt of the magistrate's son, so now, they have the support of the local law enforcement while in that city. They can go to them and ask for information, or perhaps ask for work, the guards always have more cases than they can handle, and would be more than happy to pay the current favored adventurers to deal with some of these unsolved mysteries (read: plot hooks), etc. Perhaps give them a title that gives them privileges in town, etc. You get the idea.

Or maybe the Fighter, having suffered grievous injuries while he held the line against the bandits, so that the magistrate's son could be rescued, is given a knighthood, which gives him access to vassals, a steady flow of income, lands to govern, etc. Which, while great props for the player to brag about, but now you can introduce a whole subset of adventures, of him dealing with his new responsibilites.

So that's one idea, give them rewards that aren't mechanical, but narrative, but are juicy enough to be desired. Of course, if you're players are the typical murder hobos, and don't give a shit about any of that "roleplay stuff", and just want to kill things, then just give them some bonus xp or something. Maybe an additional 10% on top of the base amount of the encounter, if they did well. This isn't overly excessive, but is enough to warrant trying to improve every encounter.

I still don't know why you are limiting yourself to the progression of the 5.0 system, it's not like the Gaming Police will kick in your door and force you to not give them more than the minimum for the CR.

 

[Bilious Green_v1legacy]

In the group I'm playing with, the DM just gives XP per session based on what we did, what we killed, etc.; usually about 200-300 xp per session at the moment, since we're only level 3. Personally, I'm fine with whatever xp happens, because I'm not there to powergame, just hang out and have some laughs. I'm more interested in the journey than any destination.

Regarding XP more generally, I think it depends on what the group wants. A group that wants to RP and do lots of talking and non-combat problem solving is going to want a different pace to a group of dungeon crawling loot whores. There's no right or wrong approach, just what suits the wants and interests of the group.

 

[pookie101]

my old group used to play shorter campaigns so it was usually a level per session or two

 

[Saelune]

SNIPPED >:O

I didnt like how many rules and stuff I outright ignored in 3.5, and I feel 5e is far more properly balanced, and made to allow personal touches more without having to directly change anything. Plus the better I understand the rules and why this is this and not that, I can hopefully better and more properly modify the game to suit my needs.

For example, a feature of 5e is "Inspiration". A free re-roll. A character either has it as an ace up the sleeve, or they dont. Its up to the DM to award it. I usually give it for good RP moments...or a reeeeeally funny joke. I think thats a neat thing for the game to have that is basically an in-game homebrew thing.

And a far more experienced DM has pointed out to me that 5e is far more intentionally vague, likely to allow players to more freely interoperate them as they feel is best.

Its not that Im worried others will be upset, it is because -I- want to follow the rules.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

SNIPPED >:O

I didnt like how many rules and stuff I outright ignored in 3.5, and I feel 5e is far more properly balanced, and made to allow personal touches more without having to directly change anything. Plus the better I understand the rules and why this is this and not that, I can hopefully better and more properly modify the game to suit my needs.

For example, a feature of 5e is "Inspiration". A free re-roll. A character either has it as an ace up the sleeve, or they dont. Its up to the DM to award it. I usually give it for good RP moments...or a reeeeeally funny joke. I think thats a neat thing for the game to have that is basically an in-game homebrew thing.

And a far more experienced DM has pointed out to me that 5e is far more intentionally vague, likely to allow players to more freely interoperate them as they feel is best.

Its not that Im worried others will be upset, it is because -I- want to follow the rules.

Best tip for any DM, personally, is that you ultimately have the final say. The rules are not strict, nor unbending, in fact in every iteration there has always been the idea that the DM can choose at whim what rules to follow at any given moment. Its fluid, the game rules are not walls just loose guidelines. If a moment would have significantly more drama but a rule gets in the way, break the rule. You're the DM.
And most of all, the DM screen is a great tool. You're not required to tell the players what they're rolling for, nor are you required to explain what you're rolling for. You can even roll when nothing is happening just to keep players thinking. Keep the mechanics an arcane thing happening behind the curtain and have your players role-play first without worrying too much about roll-playing.
Finding the balance between dice-rolls and roleplaying moments makes games great. So experiment, play around with things and don't be afraid to tweak rules or outright throw out ones that you don't enjoy or feel are hampering gameplay.
As the DM, you're the game engine and coder, feel free to rewrite.

EDIT: Forgot my last bit... What I'm ultimately saying is that don't think about finding the perfect rules set so much as molding what you have to fit your game. The whole idea of house-rules is a big part of DnD, this is coming from 20+ years experience as a DM.
And just because during a session you toss a rule out for dramatic effect, it doesn't mean that rule is permanently thrown out.

 

[xaszatm]

Like other people say, it's all about what type of campaign you're running. For two very different extremes one campaign I ran was a very role-play heavy one. That one took an average of 12 sessions a level. On the other hand, I once held a "kill-em-all" styled mega-dungeon where people could level multiple times per session...and would usually also die multiple times a session. It all depends on what your players want. If they feel its going too slow, don't be afraid to give them a few bonus experience in their direction and vice versa.

 

[Raddra]

if you use the right tools, XP is very easy to award in 5e. For example

http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

Lets you design encounters, tells you if its good for the level and gives you an easy xp total for sharing. After that you can use the xp totals to give quest rewards according to encounter ease too.

Generally though I much prefer to just award levels at milestones. After an arc is over they get a level.

 

[Bobular]

I've recently got back into D&D and the shift to 5th was weird to me. I started at lvl 3 as my group had a few sessions under their belt before I had the time to join and after about 4 or 5 sessions I'm almost level 4 which seems fair, don't want to instantly become one of the most powerful people in the world overnight.

 

[Satinavian]

I think, a level roughly every 3 sessions is a good speed.

 

[TheFinish]

When I first started DMing d20 back in 3rd Ed, I tried to follow the encounter rules for XP but found it far too much of a hassle. So what I do now is simple: I run premade adventures if I can, since they basically tell you when to level up the peeps and they keep a good pace. If I really, really want to make something myself, I build the quests and they level up after each quest, which is usually 2-3 sessions (so once a month, for my weekly games.)

 

[Kae]

I think that's just how the game is designed, seems like most of the adventures end around level 10, the highest level character I've played was level 11, that being said it was on Dragon Lance Rise of Tiamat admittedly we did skip a whole chapter because the party was a lot more clever than we thought and most of the game it did feel like we were too low level to do anything, even so, assuming our Party didn't lose that much XP I would say the campaign would have ended around level 13 - 16 not 20 anyway, which is when you get the really cool powers, like the ability of the Illusionist to basically be a Looney Toon.

Can't wait to be finished with the current adventure, as enjoyable as it is and I do get that the DM loves D&D lore but the campaign that he was actually writing was more entertaining and it's kind of annoying to stop mid-way to play the latest one, but that's fine he's the DM and he's pretty good at it, not his fault that I love my character from the other campaign more.

 

[Saelune]

I think that's just how the game is designed, seems like most of the adventures end around level 10, the highest level character I've played was level 11, that being said it was on Dragon Lance Rise of Tiamat admittedly we did skip a whole chapter because the party was a lot more clever than we thought and most of the game it did feel like we were too low level to do anything, even so, assuming our Party didn't lose that much XP I would say the campaign would have ended around level 13 - 16 not 20 anyway, which is when you get the really cool powers, like the ability of the Illusionist to basically be a Looney Toon.

Can't wait to be finished with the current adventure, as enjoyable as it is and I do get that the DM loves D&D lore but the campaign that he was actually writing was more entertaining and it's kind of annoying to stop mid-way to play the latest one, but that's fine he's the DM and he's pretty good at it, not his fault that I love my character from the other campaign more.

I am trying to have stopping points for breaks to play other campaigns, and let others DM. The main thing is I need to ensure we return to it and not leave it forgotten. My main method of doing that is just being adamant about it and reminding them how rarely they get to play high level. Im trying to think of the next good break point, cause there seems to be some slight fatigue, and alot of campaign ideas have been thrown around. Mostly cause of Volo's Guide.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

How often do you guys play? Back in the days when me and my friends averaged a session a week (oh sweet high school) we could be fairly stingy with xp, since you would level up rather fast anyway (when we did D&D it translated to about a level a month after level 4-5). These days, when we are lucky to get one session a month, I am much more generous with XP, since being too stingy means that people feel like it is taking forever to improve their skills.

 

[Mechamorph]

Here is what I do. As others have noted, there is no one-size-fits-all but maybe it will be of use to you.

I usually play "sandbox" style games with the PCs belonging to the same group in some capacity so there is very great variability in what the PCs do with a few set pieces scattered in between. So I usually assign a certain amount of XP that they could theoretically earn each "mission" in three tranches: combat, roleplaying rewards and quest awards (succeeding in the mission requirements) in roughly 1:1:2 ratio. Each mission takes about 2 session to play usually and I calculate that the PCs can advance a level every 3 missions if they attain half of the XP on offer. This levels them every 3-6 weeks or so depending on player effort, roleplaying and planning. Should they choose to undertake tougher missions they will level faster (as I would assign more XP to the mission) and if they play it safe, they will advance slower. This provides incentives for both remaining in character and good planning (mission rewards). Thus hack and slash PCs will usually each about 25% of XP on offer and usually attract attention they do not want and usually cannot handle.

The best advice I can give you as a DM is to reward the PCs for doing the things that you want them to do. The players are there to have fun and if you have a particularly cerebral group, reward XP for pulling off a cunning plan. If you are dungeoneering then give XP for puzzle solver and trap avoidance. Murder central? Combat XP ahoy.