Daredevil (the Netflix series) and the importance of philosophy vs fists.

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CrazyCajun777

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Apr 2, 2013
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First of all, I would like to say that I rather enjoyed this series and if you did not watch it then you should. It's actually pretty good. It's well acted (vincent d'onofrio does a particularly good job), well choreographed, well shot, and generally well written. However, in this post I will be spoiling the ending to the season 1 story arc soooooooo you've been warned.

Basically, I didn't like the end of the Kingpin story arc of season 1. I'm not arguing that it was bad just that it overlooked an element to the Kingpin and Daredevil's relationship that is more interesting than the conclusion we received.

So what do I mean? Well, the story basically ends in a fist fight. We have these two characters antagonizing and dancing around each other for much of the season and their climactic finale ends in with a blind superhero beat up an older fat guy. Which is somewhat ok, but it is not that interesting. I mean, once you've watched the hero fight a blind warrior who is part zen master part Spartan watching him go fisticuffs with the weird guy from full metal jacket just isn't as stimulating or interesting. Why? It has to do with the central conflict surrounding these two characters.

The central conflict had nothing to do with combative prowess or with martial might but with philosophy. Now, stay with me. What made the conflict between Daredevil and Kingpin interesting was the fact that in their own ways they each had similar goals. Both wanted to make the city better, but they fundamental differed on how such a task should be performed. Daredevil was the boy scout arguing that things should be done "the right way" where Kingpin argued that sometimes you need to get your hands dirty. This conflict of philosophy is the central tenant of their relationship, and this is what makes Kingpin such a fun and unique adversary. However, in their final altercation no such issues arise. No philosophical debate occurs (metaphorical or otherwise). In fact, they try to toss aside the entirety of Kingpin's philosophy with a single speech, and either way the argument is rendered mute because Daredevil is better at punching. This makes the ending unsatisfying.

As I'm sure you've figured out by now, I'm having a difficult time explaining the problem because I'm trying to describe the absence of something. Thus, I will provide an example for contrast.

The Dark Knight is a rather popular superhero film with one of people's favorite baddies, the joker. I will now proceed to spoil it... warned. The Joker and his philosophy are core to all the events surrounding the movie, and the conclusion reflects this in a very satisfying way. Sure, batman does punch the joker a bunch, but that isn't his victory. His victory is with the boats, and even after punching the joker he suffers a defeat by the corruption of Harvey Dent (aaron eckhart does not get nearly enough love for his performance here).

Let's backtrack a little first. You might be asking yourself, "The joker has a philosophy? but he's chaos... that's not really a philosophy." Well, he does tend to represent chaos, but he himself does carry a particularly important philosophy central to the film that he openly states and sums up rather well:

"You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."

The joker's argument here is that all people are fundamentally prepared to commit horrible acts. He argues that it's easy to maintain a moral code when there is no pressure, but in reality people will always lie, cheat, steal, kill ect. in the event that it will benefit them. Basically, he's arguing that any man hungry enough will steal food, than any man put in a room with a beautiful enough woman will cheat on his wife, that any man desperate enough will kill. At it's core he is arguing against the good of people and the moral status of the populous. Batman, obviously argues the opposite (after all that's why he saved the whole city in the previous film).

Then, in the end, the joker puts it all to the test. He places the bombs on the two boats and tells them that the only way to survived is to blow up the other boat. This is interesting as now we have batman's philosophy "people are basically good" vs the joker's "people are basically bad" play out against each other. Even if you don't recognize this openly it resonates with your subconscious and sets up a more interesting and satisfying conclusion to the movie. (also, please note that the ending does not resolve the issue as both sides draw metaphorical blood. however, the issue is directly addressed and thus the ending is satisfying)

Daredevil skips this very important element, and simply has a fight between two characters when it is philosophy that separates them. Now, you could have a simple brawl be a somewhat satisfying ending, but not when you've played up the importance of the ideological difference between the antagonist and protagonist. The importance of addressing ideological differences in a finale can be seen across history and genres. From Les Miserables to Trigun, story tellers have recognized the need to address a narrative's emotional core upon reaching its conclusion. In my opinion Daredevil does not do this very well.

All I'm saying is that it could have been a bit better.

I hope you enjoyed reading this, and if you would be interested to hear more of my thoughts on the series or what have you please let me know. I'm not asking that you agree with me, just that you hear me out and think about it. :)

Have a good one.
 

Guffe

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Jul 12, 2009
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Never really thought about it that way... I just... watched the show xD
Interesting thoughts, and I really liked the Kingpin and Daredevil "dance" as you call it.
Not sure what to think about the whole thing to be honest. Should maybe give it a bit more thought :p

I guess it's good that someone analyses what they watch and not just stare at stuff blindly like me thinking "this is cool" :D
 

Battenberg

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Aug 16, 2012
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The Dark Knight ending was insanely good, hell the whole film was just done perfectly imo and it's tied for being my absolute favourite film based based around a comic (because V for Vendetta is excellent also). Holding other shows/ films to that standard means you're going to be disappointed very often.

That said I agree that it lacked any kind of moral/ philosophical triumph for Daredevil. Then again I think the format is probably the reason they chose to go down this route. Imagine if Kingpin was outreasoned and shown beyond doubt his way wasn't better. Barring a personality transplant there's no way he could return to the show as a villain because it would invalidate that victory. Plus the episodic format does make it slightly more challenging to have the finale essentially be a talk-off. The rest of the show balanced the fighting and the plot excellently however to make a memorable final episode they needed to focus in on the action, I expect a 45 minute debate on whether or not the ends justify the means would have met with a poor reception. Also this whole series is essentially an origins story for Daredevil. He doesn't need (and at least for shouldn't be capable of) some flawless victory at this point, just beating the guy to a pulp is good enough to set up their relationship for future episodes.

If the director had known this would only get 1 series then I would absolutely agree that a more definitive resolution would be necessary but Netflix series are basically guaranteed at least one more series so they had no reason to rush to the endgame for the show.
 

TakerFoxx

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Jan 27, 2011
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I'd say that the biggest difference between the Dark Knight and Daredevil was that Joker and Batman were portrayed as complete opposites but with scary parallels. Both used theatrics and psychological manipulation as weapons and probably were created by tragedy (even if the Joker can't make up his mind as to which one), but their goals were completely different. Batman his power to try to clean up the city, dig out the corruption, scare criminals, and make the streets safe again. The Joker was bound and determined to break the city, to tear down any trappings of civility and expose the average man as just being a step away from being as crazy as he is. As such, in the end it came down to a clash of ideals.

Daredevil and the Kingpin are a bit different, in that they actually want the same thing: to clean up Hell's Kitchen. And let's be honest, both are ruthless in their pursuits of that goal. Hell, one of the earliest episodes had Matt torturing a guy for information, and after he got it, he chucked the dude off a roof into a dumpster, knocking him into a coma. The biggest difference is just how far they're willing go. Wilson is simply willing to go to places Matt isn't, consort with people that would be considered evil, and sacrifice innocent lives in the process, because he truly believes that the ends justify the means. Matt has some of that same philosophy in him, he just hasn't gone as far as Wilson has. Their primary differences is that one is coming from a place of wealth and influence to tear corruption apart from the top down while the other stalks the slums and alleys to take things down from the bottom up.

I know this doesn't really counter your point, I just felt that the differences between Batman and the Joker didn't really work as a comparison to the differences between Daredevil and Kingpin, as the former were fundamentally opposed in their philosophy while sharing some core and very disturbing similarities while the latter have more-or-less the same philosophy and goals but are very opposed in how far they're willing to take it.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Sep 6, 2009
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Superman and Lex Luthor would be a more ideal comparison. Both of them want the same thing (a better world), but their methods are very different.

All in all, I quite enjoyed the series, and am looking forward to series 2.
 

Brown_Coat117

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Oct 22, 2010
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The factors that the OP misses is the simple fact that in the Dark Knight, Batman and Joker are both fully developed in their personal philosophy, in DD Matt and Fisk are both in a state of flux, both have and idea of how they want to be but neither is set on a path and it's only in their interactions both face to face and by proxy that they both choose. By the time they have their final brawl they have both finally chosen their paths and them fighting if the final act that cements them opposites rather than having them dancing the line between heroism and villainy as they had during the course of the series.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Spoilers for both DD "franchises" ahead.

Agree and disagree.

I like Kingpin best when he's in an assymetrical war with Daredevil and company. I think he's more interesting when he's not in direct, frontline confrontation.

However....

I think the repeated acts of aggression and even brutality from Fisk in the Netflix series were always pointing towards a fight. There was only one way this wa going down, and it was physical. While they don't do as much to establish D'onofrio's stature as a badass, he was clearly a phsysically dominating man who had no issue getting his own hands dirty. A battle of ideology might have better fit the Kingpin played by Michael Clarke Duncan, rather than him suddenly believing in the law of the street or whatever (which he did not believe when he killed Matt's dad.

I think the ill-tempered, sometimes well-meaning D'onofrio should have done the fisticuffs while Duncan's more calculating Kingpin should have played the ideology card. A shame that's a better ending than that piece of crap deserved. Some might even say this is a bad way to end an action movie, but Bullseye should have been the action climax. DD then gets to be all punchy punchy with a bad guy, and then take down the Kingpin.

I wouldn't mind seeing a more seasoned Daredevil and a more tempered Kingpin go at it through ideology down the road, but I don't think it fits where the characters are now.