Dark Souls: Why we die

[CrazyCajun777]

Being that Dark Souls is such a hot topic I wanted to bring this up.

Note: I will be talking about Dark Souls 1 in this post.

Many people say that Dark Souls is a sort of masterpiece. Some say that this game is great because it is challenging but fair. Some say that it is great dispite it's impenetrability. Some love that it doesn't hold your hand, and that is awesome. Some people boast on how easily they beat the game.

Well these are all valid likes/dislikes, but I think the narrative value of the difficulty is important and something I would like to discuss.

First off, Dark Souls is not a power fantasy. Many games are about empowerment, but dark souls is about something different. Dark Souls is almost lovecraftian. It tells the story of someone struggling for human agency against the grandeur of an indifferent universe. Ever notice that in the first dark souls when you die the enemies just walk away after. This is on purpose. You aren't special. Killing you is not an accomplishment. That is just par for the course. Nature isn't malicious it is just bigger than you. Killing you is like swatting a fly. The difficulty is designed to reflect that. It emphasizes the monumental task your character is faced with. You just tried to fight a professional dragon slayer wielding a spear imbued with the holy power of lightning and the executioner employed by the gods, of course you F***ing died in 6 seconds. What did you really think that a dragon that is about four stories tall and 60% mouth couldn't kill you in one hit? This is the feeling that dark souls is trying to instill and the games difficulty is a tool the creators use to emphasize this.

Now onto the actual story. You are the chosen undead. The undead part is huge. It means that you actually die. In many games, death is a fail state that means you have to restart from a save. In some games when you die you are simple dropped off somewhere and the game just pretends like that never happened. In dark souls death happened and is part of your character's story.

Well this all makes your character seem unbalanced. You are an immortal colossus slaying zombie. Well, that is only half true. In dark souls the story focuses a great deal on an event known as "hollowing". What is hollowing? Well it is the inevitable end for an undead. As an undead dies over and over again the undead begins to forget who he is. He forgets his motivation. He loses all purpose. He loses his sanity and just becomes an impulsive soulless (not in-game souls...like...metaphorical soul) husk of who he once was. His humanity (again not in game humanity) is totally lost.

This is the thing that threatens you, the protagonist. The game is hard because dying is part of your character's struggle. Which will break first your iron will or your enemies's iron armor? The final fail state of dark souls is your own hallowing. You lose motivation. You lose purpose. You forget that you are the chosen undead. You give up.

The game's difficulty exists for a reason. I do not believe that all games should be hard.

Easy game I liked as an example.
I rather liked mass effect 2. It was very easy, but you're playing a power fantasy. The ability to overcome any obstacle with ease feels at home in a power fantasy. The game has a traditional narrative that you want to get too quickly. That is why i was generally ok with the low difficulty on ME2.

But Dark Souls's difficulty is great because it is part of the story, it is part of the world, and more importantly it is part of your character's journey.


Or maybe that's just me.



Thank you for your time.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I've talked about this in threads before, but whenever people bring up how dying in Dark Souls is too frustrating or how it's unfair how much it sets you back, I end to answer with something like this (from http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.861585-I-just-want-to-talk-about-Dark-Souls#21470614):

As far as the frustration from dying and having to run back through an area again, I have to say that most of the time it's not a big deal. Once you've gone through an area a couple of times you can basically navigate it with your eyes closed. Take for example the run to Ornstein and Smough. If you ignore the silver knights it's very easy to run from the bonfire to the fog wall in about 2 minutes. Going through an area over and over again gives you a mastery of it. After a while you can kill every enemy without taking any damage, and then you feel like you are the chosen undead, and you understand why you're able to kill LITERAL GODS.

I think it's a cool theme of the game that your character isn't necessarily stronger or better than any of the enemies he faces, but he has an unbreakable strength of will. The reason he's capable of overcoming these monsters is that no matter how many times he dies he comes back, and eventually wins. That's also what's scary about the chosen undead, no matter how many times he's beaten he can never be truly defeated, and it's inevitable that he'll win because with each attempt he gets a little better, a little closer to victory. It would be impossible to create this feeling without the frustration of having to go through areas over and over again.

 

[ninja666]

Am I the only one here that didn't like Dark Souls exclusively for its difficulty? What got me hooked up into it was the grim, morbid atmosphere and the concept of a world on the edge of collapse.

On the side note, the story actually has a second, deeper layer underneath that "chosen undead" crap. You have to do a lot of reading to get into that, though.

Spoiler

Basically, the "chosen undead" is a term invented by Gwyndolin to deceive an undead strong enough for his purpose into believing they're special. What's the real goal of all this? To find an undead strong enough to best Gwyn - his father, inherit the First Flame and prolong the repeating cycle, till the next "chosen undead" comes. He wants to prolong that cycle because he can't reconcile that the world, where he, his family, and all the Giants were the master race ruling over people, has to die to be eventually reborn as a world where humans rule. Then, there's Kaathe. S/he allegedly guides you into breaking the neverending cycle of the Age of Fire and undead curse, and beginning the Age of Man, with you being the supreme leader of all mankind. You don't know what will really happen when you do that, but you get a hint in the DLC - it seems that the Abyss (some unknown power of pure evil or some shit) has to be released into the world to kill off what's left of it. You don't know if any word s/he says it's true, but it's either this, or another quest for the Lordvessel, just with a different undead in the main role. One thing is sure, though - the world as you know it dies, no matter your decision.

 

[Little Gray]

Am I the only one who didnt understand what people meant when they said dark souls was hard? Once you figure out the very simple mechanics of parrying and rolling the game becomes easy mode. Death only comes when you get impatient or do something incredibly stupid.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Well this all makes your character seem unbalanced. You are an immortal colossus slaying zombie. Well, that is only half true. In dark souls the story focuses a great deal on an event known as "hollowing". What is hollowing? Well it is the inevitable end for an undead. As an undead dies over and over again the undead begins to forget who he is. He forgets his motivation. He loses all purpose. He loses his sanity and just becomes an impulsive soulless (not in-game souls...like...metaphorical soul) husk of who he once was. His humanity (again not in game humanity) is totally lost.

This is the thing that threatens you, the protagonist.

And in the first Dark Souls, it's an almost-entirely defanged threat[footnote]Dark Souls 2 at least weakens you with each death. Which strangely annoys me far less than DS1's death mechanic.[/footnote]. Unlike every other undead in the game, you never go insane. And unlike every other undead in the game, you are truly immortal.

First off, Dark Souls is not a power fantasy.

I beg to differ.

I am an immortal, colossus-slaying zombie. I leaped from a third-story balcony to disembowel a two story-high hammer demon. I danced around the ankles of a giant minotaur and slowly bled it dry, while under crossbow fire. I punched apart living statues, and stabbed towering hydras to death. I fought witches and warriors, golems and gargoyles, dragons and devils, and even gods, and came out on top. Most of them killed me, yes, but they could never kill me enough. With each death, I approached closer to my goal, and I only needed to kill them once.

To the dead world, I was the Lovecraftian horror, an unstoppable, apathetic force completing its descent into destruction. If Dark Souls had wanted me to feel like J.Q. Randomschmuck, it shouldn't have given me the power of Kratos.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

Am I the only one here that didn't like Dark Souls exclusively for its difficulty? What got me hooked up into it was the grim, morbid atmosphere and the concept of a world on the edge of collapse.

On the side note, the story actually has a second, deeper layer underneath that "chosen undead" crap. You have to do a lot of reading to get into that, though.

Spoiler

Basically, the "chosen undead" is a term invented by Gwyndolin to deceive an undead strong enough for his purpose into believing they're special. What's the real goal of all this? To find an undead strong enough to best Gwyn - his father, inherit the First Flame and prolong the repeating cycle, till the next "chosen undead" comes. He wants to prolong that cycle because he can't reconcile that the world, where he, his family, and all the Giants were the master race ruling over people, has to die to be eventually reborn as a world where humans rule. Then, there's Kaathe. S/he allegedly guides you into breaking the neverending cycle of the Age of Fire and undead curse, and beginning the Age of Man, with you being the supreme leader of all mankind. You don't know what will really happen when you do that, but you get a hint in the DLC - it seems that the Abyss (some unknown power of pure evil or some shit) has to be released into the world to kill off what's left of it. You don't know if any word s/he says it's true, but it's either this, or another quest for the Lordvessel, just with a different undead in the main role. One thing is sure, though - the world as you know it dies, no matter your decision.

Ha ha. The difficulty actually turned me off of the game. Everything you listed is actually what made me finally give the game a second chance years later. I too appreciate the atmosphere and the story, especially the deeper story that you talked about. I loved the feeling of exploring and just looking at the detail in the world. The constant death drove me nuts, until I finally understood how the game worked.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Well this all makes your character seem unbalanced. You are an immortal colossus slaying zombie. Well, that is only half true. In dark souls the story focuses a great deal on an event known as "hollowing". What is hollowing? Well it is the inevitable end for an undead. As an undead dies over and over again the undead begins to forget who he is. He forgets his motivation. He loses all purpose. He loses his sanity and just becomes an impulsive soulless (not in-game souls...like...metaphorical soul) husk of who he once was. His humanity (again not in game humanity) is totally lost.

This is the thing that threatens you, the protagonist.

And in the first Dark Souls, it's an almost-entirely defanged threat. Unlike every other undead in the game, you never go insane. And unlike every other undead in the game, you are truly immortal.

Technically your character hollowing out and going insane is when you, the player, give up on the game. I think its a pretty smart idea really

 

[Trippy Turtle]

To be honest, I never experienced that because I never got good at the game.
I just kept running in until I got lucky and beat it. Probably the reason the Gargoyles are the hardest boss in the game for me.

The area that took me the longest was easily Sens Fortress just because I was too impatient. Still, I enjoyed the feeling of finally beating it without having to use cheese methods or actually play smart. Its just how I enjoy games.

 

[Souplex]

Well this all makes your character seem unbalanced. You are an immortal colossus slaying zombie. Well, that is only half true. In dark souls the story focuses a great deal on an event known as "hollowing". What is hollowing? Well it is the inevitable end for an undead. As an undead dies over and over again the undead begins to forget who he is. He forgets his motivation. He loses all purpose. He loses his sanity and just becomes an impulsive soulless (not in-game souls...like...metaphorical soul) husk of who he once was. His humanity (again not in game humanity) is totally lost.

This is the thing that threatens you, the protagonist.

And in the first Dark Souls, it's an almost-entirely defanged threat[footnote]Dark Souls 2 at least weakens you with each death. Which strangely annoys me far less than DS1's death mechanic.[/footnote]. Unlike every other undead in the game, you never go insane. And unlike every other undead in the game, you are truly immortal.

Hollowing can happen when an undead loses the will to go on.
When you give up and stop playing, the chosen undead goes hollow.

 

[Fox12]

I love that we essentially have a horror game with tight controls that still remains frightening. I don't like the idea that scary games need bad controls. You just need to feel small in relation to your opponents. Dark Souls isn't scary in the conventional sense, of course, but in the existential sense. The world is ending, and not even the gods could stop it. Even if you accomplish your goal, it all feels so...futile. And if you give up then your character has lost the will to continue, and hollows out. It would be nice to see more games marry their game play and story. Bioshock tried, but it felt shallow next to Dark Souls.

It reminds me of entropy, or the ultimate heat death of the universe. The life energy of the universe is dying, and no one can do anything about it.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

Am I the only one here that didn't like Dark Souls exclusively for its difficulty? What got me hooked up into it was the grim, morbid atmosphere and the concept of a world on the edge of collapse.

Most people don't, unless they're hardcore completionists. Dark Souls isn't 'hard' by standard game terms. It's fair. 'Hard' usually relates to bosses having huge amounts of health and giant attacks, and only being able to operate within restricted game mechanics. It's being forced to make split-second decisions. Dark Souls isn't hard. It's fair. I would go as far as to say that it's the fairest game I've ever played. If I ever die, I know why I died. I am equipped with the knowledge that "I must avoid this" or "I should explore for a different route". It follows it's own rules stringently, and it expects you to do the same, whilst still being fair. You can launch yourself at a boss ad infinitum, but after a while, you will know all of their attack patterns and the area leading up to it like the back of your hand. You always have options, and if you don't feel like it, you can just go to a different area completely, and go through another level instead. Or you can find a place to farm souls, level yourself up until you feel confident enough to face the boss again.

It's just that it has a different game design philosophy to most other action-rpgs, so players take a good amount of time to acclimatise to the game. Because modern gaming has become almost insultingly easy at times, a lot of players lack the patience to properly internalise and operate within the game's ruleset, so they just brand it as 'difficult'.

 

[briankoontz]

It's not true as the OP says that Dark Souls is not a power fantasy. The protagonist is the CHOSEN undead, adhering to "chosen one" specialness which serves to flatter and empower the character, used time and time again in fiction.

The Eternal Protagonist is also a key element of power fantasy, which is alive and well in Dark Souls. Death means very little, amounting to usually a very small loss of plot progress.

The Lovecraftian protagonist feels himself to be weak amid powerful supernatural forces, but this feeling itself is a form of empowerment, allowing him to experience in the first place the very reality that he then effectively opposes.

In Lovecraftian mythos, ancient evil is *held at bay* not by Conan the Barbarian, but by "humble enlightened" people WILLING to appreciate the smallness of their own power and to appreciate the vast power of the forces they oppose.

But either the "smallness" of their own power or the "vastness" of the forces they oppose clearly cannot actually be true, since they manage to hold off the opposed forces *through their own power*.

So within Lovecraft we find a kind of Self-manipulated Power, the idea that humility can be used as a weapon, that only humility can PRODUCE the power necessary to oppose evil forces.

Lovecraft and Tolkien have a lot of similarities in how they see the world, while Conan the Barbarian just grunts and smashes them in the face with a club.

 

[ninja666]

It's not true as the OP says that Dark Souls is not a power fantasy. The protagonist is the CHOSEN undead, adhering to "chosen one" specialness which serves to flatter and empower the character, used time and time again in fiction.

Please read the part of my post about the story (the one hidden in the spoiler). You'll be surprised.

 

[cleric of the order]

Am I the only one here that didn't like Dark Souls exclusively for its difficulty? What got me hooked up into it was the grim, morbid atmosphere and the concept of a world on the edge of collapse.

On the side note, the story actually has a second, deeper layer underneath that "chosen undead" crap. You have to do a lot of reading to get into that, though.

Spoiler

Basically, the "chosen undead" is a term invented by Gwyndolin to deceive an undead strong enough for his purpose into believing they're special. What's the real goal of all this? To find an undead strong enough to best Gwyn - his father, inherit the First Flame and prolong the repeating cycle, till the next "chosen undead" comes. He wants to prolong that cycle because he can't reconcile that the world, where he, his family, and all the Giants were the master race ruling over people, has to die to be eventually reborn as a world where humans rule. Then, there's Kaathe. S/he allegedly guides you into breaking the neverending cycle of the Age of Fire and undead curse, and beginning the Age of Man, with you being the supreme leader of all mankind. You don't know what will really happen when you do that, but you get a hint in the DLC - it seems that the Abyss (some unknown power of pure evil or some shit) has to be released into the world to kill off what's left of it. You don't know if any word s/he says it's true, but it's either this, or another quest for the Lordvessel, just with a different undead in the main role. One thing is sure, though - the world as you know it dies, no matter your decision.

I started playing only because of the prepare to cry series.
I started watching em one by one and eventually after watching the solaire video, I decided i had to play it to save soliare.
After playing through it I came to love the tone and theme of the game, so i played through demons souls and the much worse darksouls 2 and I can say i I've gotten gud.
It's been great all around and I can't wait for bloodborne... to arrive on the PC.

 

[ninja666]

It's been great all around and I can't wait for bloodborne... to arrive on the PC.

Sadly, it ain't gonna happen and no amount of petitions is going to change it. The game's was co-developed by people from Sony and is to stay as an exclusive for their platform. The master race will have to do with Lords of the Fallen for now. Or wait for another game inspired by Souls.

 

[cleric of the order]

It's been great all around and I can't wait for bloodborne... to arrive on the PC.

Sadly, it ain't gonna happen and no amount of petitions is going to change it. The game's was co-developed by people from Sony and is to stay as an exclusive for their platform. The master race will have to do with Lords of the Fallen for now. Or wait for another game inspired by Souls.

I know.
I'll just hope against all odds that it does somehow.
I would have hoped they'd have learned from demons souls but I don' think Sony is goign to let this one get away either.
At least it won't have Games for windows live weighing it down.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

Nice OP. I preferred to think of the games as unforgiving rather than difficult

 

[NeutralDrow]

Technically your character hollowing out and going insane is when you, the player, give up on the game. I think its a pretty smart idea really

Hollowing can happen when an undead loses the will to go on.
When you give up and stop playing, the chosen undead goes hollow.

By which point it's entirely moot, because if you gave up playing the game before completion, it's unlikely that you care about the game's self-congratulatory meta.

 

[Nomanslander]

First off, Dark Souls is not a power fantasy. Many games are about empowerment, but dark souls is about something different. Dark Souls is almost lovecraftian. It tells the story of someone struggling for human agency against the grandeur of an indifferent universe. Ever notice that in the first dark souls when you die the enemies just walk away after. This is on purpose. You aren't special. Killing you is not an accomplishment. That is just par for the course. Nature isn't malicious it is just bigger than you. Killing you is like swatting a fly. The difficulty is designed to reflect that. It emphasizes the monumental task your character is faced with. You just tried to fight a professional dragon slayer wielding a spear imbued with the holy power of lightning and the executioner employed by the gods, of course you F***ing died in 6 seconds. What did you really think that a dragon that is about four stories tall and 60% mouth couldn't kill you in one hit? This is the feeling that dark souls is trying to instill and the games difficulty is a tool the creators use to emphasize this.

I played DS after i played Skyrim, and one thing that ended up annoying the crap out of me was how that game did everything to stroke my ego at every turn.

Oh... you're the great Dragonborn. All hail the Dragonborn.

Oh... you're chosen by that corpse mother to be the new interpreter for the Dark Brotherhood. All hail the new leader of the Dark Brotherhood.

Oh... Lady luck also thinks you're speical... now you're the leader of the Thieves Guild, all hail you.

Oh... wait wait... more people think you're special too. The Companions for instance and the [insert random whoever person, whatever guild].

By the time I started doing quests for the Mages of Winterhold (I think the name was, don't want to google), I knew I was going to end up leading them to, leading more character in Skyrim to suck my dick. The whole point of the game by that point had become to get everyone in Skyrim to suck my dick, that or I'd Fus Ro Da their asses over a cliff. And you'd think that one guild would mind me leading them when I'm already leading others. But no, the game is all about being the Legendary Dragonborne, and have all of Tamriel line up for the chance they can drop to their knees in front of me, and go to work.

And I felt bored to tears.

But then Dark Souls came out, and changed everything.

There's a reason I love that game. And the reason's you mentioned was probably one of the biggest ones I faced with.

 

[ninja666]

le snip

The attitude towards the player was the biggest surprise for me in Dark Souls, too. When I completed the tutorial and heard the prophecy that "an undead shall be chosen" etc. etc. I thought it was going to be another tale of a brave hero who saves the world from an impending doom. Then, I talked to the first character in Lordran - the crestfallen warrior. When I heard him say in his mocking tone how I'm the bazillionth undead sent on a holy mission of fullfilling the prophecy and would have done better not to get out the asylum at all, I knew Dark Souls wasn't gonna be one of "those" games.