Debating "tsundere"

[Relish in Chaos]

Out of all the tropes in anime I've heard of, it's "tsundere" that I've always thought, "Does there really need to be a name for it?" I mean, I know what it means, but from the looks of it, all it seems to entail is a character, usually female, who starts off as bitchy but gets kinder as the series progresses (i.e. the "ice queen" that needs to be thawed), like a "hidden heart of gold"-type thing. But isn't that kind of a broad label anyway? And there are people, both male and female, that are like that in real-life anyway. Does Vegeta in Dragon Ball count as a "tsundere" now?

 

[Euryalus]

You could ask whether any concept needs its own name. In english we have the words "stream" and "river" which mostly mean the same thing, but carry information about the width and general size of the thing.

In French there's a distinction between rivers that flow into a lake and rivers that flow into the sea. Why is the distinction made? Because it separates two distinct concepts that COULD be lumped into one category, but aren't because some detail would be lost.

Taken to its ultimate end, why not just use thing to refer to everything? Thing fits with all concepts.

Tsundere is just a certain type of ice queen. Cold on the outside, but warm on the inside. I tend to think its distinct enough to warrant its own word.

 

[game-lover]

I never considered a Tsundere to be an ice queen. That's like a different "Dere" character. According to TVTropes, there's at least two more. Yandere and Kuudere. I'm pretty sure the Kuudere is the official ice queen. To me, I define being a Tsundere character as less cold and more... aggro. Mean and rude. Bitchy is a good term but it doesn't go with cold in my opinion.

Vegeta to me doesn't count because it's not the process of developing a soft side that defines one. It's the refusing to reveal it/admit to it and ... pretend it never happened or go back on it when you know damn well it was there.

Naru from Love Hina was a good example and probably why she was such a hated character. At least from that movie I saw one time. Fickle and wishy washy. Will show affection one moment and punch Keitaro the next.

To his credit, Vegeta did the first where he didn't like to admit his genuine feelings but when they came out, he never tried to just take them back and pretend they were never there or that he didn't briefly express them. He just held his feelings back to the very end. But when said feelings came out, you had the end of it.

 

[DoPo]

I mean, I know what it means, but from the looks of it, all it seems to entail is a character, usually female, who starts off as bitchy but gets kinder as the series progresses (i.e. the "ice queen" that needs to be thawed), like a "hidden heart of gold"-type thing.

In addition to T0ad 0f Truth point about labels, I shouls also inform you that, no, that is not "tsundere". The actual tsundere is a character that seemingly goes through frequent mood swings not one that gradually changes. Go hit up TVTropes for more, if you wish.

 

[Nouw]

I mean, I know what it means, but from the looks of it, all it seems to entail is a character, usually female, who starts off as bitchy but gets kinder as the series progresses (i.e. the "ice queen" that needs to be thawed), like a "hidden heart of gold"-type thing.

In addition to T0ad 0f Truth point about labels, I shouls also inform you that, no, that is not "tsundere". The actual tsundere is a character that seemingly goes through frequent mood swings not one that gradually changes. Go hit up TVTropes for more, if you wish.

Indeed. The gradual change usually comes for purposes of character development, not to fulfill the tsundere trope.

 

[HardkorSB]

If you watch a harem anime, the tsundere is the one who likes the main character but whenever he's close, she usually abuses him, both physically and verbally. She's usually emotionally conflicted between the feelings she has for the guy and her character trait of being a ***** and looking down on people.

 

[Pinkamena]

So that's what tsundere means... I never bothered checking it up myself.

 

[Keoul]

Japan has a lot of words for strange things that doesn't need a name.

And I was under the impression that tsundere wasn't a defrosting ice queen but rather an individual of any gender who periodically changes from nice to mean. They like someone but can't show their affection properly so they do it by being mean. They don't necessarily stop being tsundere.

 

[DoPo]

Japan has a lot of words for strange things that doesn't need a name.

It's every language, to be honest. And I guess it depends what people consider worthy of talking about or not. I, for example, think that "tsundoku" is a viable term - heck, we need something for games now that we have Steam. But just look around any other language and you'll certainly come across things that "don't need a term". For example, do you really think somebody needs a term for "a two litre bottle of beer" or maybe "alcohol obtained at the beginning of the distillation process", or even "the state of being half-awake" - seems pretty pointless, to be honest. Then again, even English has its quirks, if you ask me: "fortnight" instead of "two weeks" - was it really necessary to distinguish between the two concepts? I've also found "acquaintance" to not be that effective or descriptive. And so on.

 

[Sack of Cheese]

It's every language, to be honest. And I guess it depends what people consider worthy of talking about or not. I, for example, think that "tsundoku" is a viable term - heck, we need something for games now that we have Steam.

I think there's already a term for it: pile of shame.

 

[DoPo]

It's every language, to be honest. And I guess it depends what people consider worthy of talking about or not. I, for example, think that "tsundoku" is a viable term - heck, we need something for games now that we have Steam.

I think there's already a term for it: pile of shame.

Well, yeah, but that's also how I call the food I manage to totally mess up cooking but have to eat anyway. We need something specific for games.

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

Japan has a lot of words for strange things that doesn't need a name.

And I was under the impression that tsundere wasn't a defrosting ice queen but rather an individual of any gender who periodically changes from nice to mean. They like someone but can't show their affection properly so they do it by being mean. They don't necessarily stop being tsundere.

Do they have a word for buying games on Steam and not playing them? I'm in need of that word.
EDIT: I didn't read the rest of the comments, that question has already been asked and now I feel silly

OT: Like has been said, you could almost say that about any word and go, well why is this necessary, we already have X. The more words the merrier as far as i'm concerned.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

If you watch a harem anime, the tsundere is the one who likes the main character but whenever he's close, she usually abuses him, both physically and verbally. She's usually emotionally conflicted between the feelings she has for the guy and her character trait of being a ***** and looking down on people.

Or heck, if you never watch anime but remember watching Hey Arnold! as a kid, you remember the character Helga, the bully who secretly had a crush on Arnold? Yeah, she's a classic Tsundere, despite being from an American made cartoon.

 

[Sack of Cheese]

Well, yeah, but that's also how I call the food I manage to totally mess up cooking but have to eat anyway. We need something specific for games.

Or we can call them "unfinished games", aha!!

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Well, yeah, but that's also how I call the food I manage to totally mess up cooking but have to eat anyway. We need something specific for games.

Or we can call them "unfinished games", aha!!

I like the term "backlog," personally, which is probably the closest English word to the Japanese one further up in the thread. Figuratively, if not literally.

 

[Risingblade]

Does Vegeta in Dragon Ball count as a "tsundere" now?

Well tsundere are usually short...

 

[DoPo]

Do they have a word for buying games on Steam and not playing them? I'm in need of that word.
EDIT: I didn't read the rest of the comments, that question has already been asked and now I feel silly

No need to - great minds think alike, you know =)

Well, yeah, but that's also how I call the food I manage to totally mess up cooking but have to eat anyway. We need something specific for games.

Or we can call them "unfinished games", aha!!

I like the term "backlog," personally, which is probably the closest English word to the Japanese one further up in the thread. Figuratively, if not literally.

Yeah, it is the closest but it doesn't really mean the same. The term sort of implies you would be playing them...maybe.

OK, maybe we should also stop dwelling on language and Steam.

 

[uchytjes]

Well, this scene from lucky star instantly came to mind: Basically the argument is that the meaning of "tsundere" has changed from when it was first used. Originally it was used to describe an "ice queen" or someone that starts out cold then grows softer as time goes on. Now it is used to describe a person that is very angry or even violent towards people they care about in order to hide their feelings for whatever reason they may have (mostly comedy). Example of such taken to an extreme: That is a tsundere. For more tangible terms, though, take Helga from Hey Arnold:While she seems like quite the ***** on the outside, if you have seen the show you know that she actually has a secret crush on him. She is an example of what a tsundere is.

 

[DasDestroyer]

I mean, I know what it means, but from the looks of it, all it seems to entail is a character, usually female, who starts off as bitchy but gets kinder as the series progresses (i.e. the "ice queen" that needs to be thawed), like a "hidden heart of gold"-type thing.

In addition to T0ad 0f Truth point about labels, I shouls also inform you that, no, that is not "tsundere". The actual tsundere is a character that seemingly goes through frequent mood swings not one that gradually changes. Go hit up TVTropes for more, if you wish.

If you hit up that TVTropes page, you'll find the following:

The term was originally used to describe characters who began with a harsh outgoing personality, but slowly revealed a soft and vulnerable interior over time. Over the years the character archetype has become flanderized, and is now generically associated with a character who flips between the two emotional states at the slightest provocation.

Both "gradual changes" and "mood swings" characters are tsundere, but the former is what I've seen referred to as classic tsundere, while the latter I've seen referred to as modern tsundere.
[sub][sub]tsundere is srs bzns[/sub][/sub]

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Linguistically, yes. Given that such tropes are now regularly discussed by people, the formation of a more compact way to say "ice queen with a heart of gold" is perfectly natural. The basic trend is that words in common use grow shorter over time.