Do you have to like a character before you consider them good?

[Zhukov]

You know those godawful threads that are born when someone encounters an opinion that conflicts with their own and goes running to the internet in search of confirmation? Yeah, well, this is essentially one of those... sorry 'bout that. But stick with me, there's a bit more to this.

...

So... while reading the numerous threads relating to the Mass Effect games I noticed a bit of hate toward the character Jack/Subject Zero. Now, we're not talking Metroid Other M-level hate or anything, just the normal everyday variety.

This didn't really come as a surprise. After all, she's an extremely aggressive female with a shaved head and tattoos. Her chances of being popular are pretty slim. But what struck me was that people weren't complaining about her being a poorly executed character, or being poorly voiced or whatnot. Rather, the leading complaint was, "She's a *****."

Now, this seems a bit odd to me. It's akin to hating Hannibal Lecter because he's a cannibalistic murder. Yes, he is, but that's kinda the point. Same with Jack. Yes, she's a *****, and refers to herself as such, but that's exactly what she's supposed to be. She has a severely fucked up past, deep-seated trust issues and a very low opinion of humanity in general. Couple that with a significant degree of raw power and you get a vicious *****. If you regard her as such, doesn't that mean she is a well made character?

Anyway, moving on from the horrific and traumatising prospect of people on the internet not liking something that I like, this got me thinking. If you do not like a character, if they illicit a negative response, does that automatically mean they are poorly executed and therefore a bad character?

It's not hard to think of other examples.

Like, say, Justicar Samara. (My apologies to those of you who are really sick of hearing about ME2.) I didn't like her at all. She's merciless, cold, rigid and dogmatic. She did gain a significant bit of warmth after her loyalty mission, but overall I found her somewhat unsettling, even a bit creepy. However, on reflection, I would say that's an indication of a quality character. After all, she's the product of an alien society (literally) and even her own kind consider her to be an extremist of sorts.

Or, if I really want to put this to the test, how about Hope from Final Fantasy XIII? (Cue chorus of groans.) I hated that little wet rodent. Every time he was on screen I found myself hoping (hurr hurr) that he would fall off a cliff or get eaten by something. However, rather than cursing the game's writers for making me put up with him for 17 hours, should I instead be praising their perfect depiction of an irritating and angsty teenage male?

...

Okay, that post got awfully verbose. Excessively so, in fact. I wonder how many people will just go, "Waaagh! Words! TL;DR!" But I think I've made my point.

So... thoughts?

 

[Truly-A-Lie]

Sometimes, say with a villain, if you like them they're not doing it right. So sometimes they can only be good characters if you don't like them.
For example in Uncharted 2, I hate Harry Flynn. He's cocky even though he isn't smart, he annoys me to no end, but I think he's a great character.

 

[Baby Tea]

...what struck me was that people weren't complaining about her being a poorly executed character, or being poorly voiced or whatnot. Rather, the leading complaint was, "She's a *****."

Now, this seems a bit odd to me. It's akin to hating Hannibal Lecter because he's a cannibalistic murder. Yes, he is, but that's kinda the point. Same with Jack. Yes, she's a *****, and refers to herself as such, but that's exactly what she's supposed to be.

I didn't like Jack that much.
As a character, I think she was well done.
But as me liking that character as a person? No.

Hannibal was a cannibalistic murderer, and a good character: I didn't like him as a person.
Jack was damaged goods, a *****, and a good character: I didn't like her as a person.

That's where I'm coming from, least ways.
Her dialog was well written, she had some serious issues and a heavy past, and she even had moments of tenderness and vulnerability. A good character. But she was obnoxiously aggressive, she was painfully insecure with always trying to look tough, and she was beyond selfish. Not someone I like hanging out with.

So she was a good character, but not a part of my team.

 

[ABLb0y]

I hate Fang from final fantasy 13, but i still consider her an interesting character. Mainly because of her backstory.

 

[Vern5]

I hate Benny from FNV so damn much. But he is a good character because every time I meet him I keep thinking "Well he doesn't seem so bad for a guy who shot me in the face".

A character can have whatever qualities they need to. A good character can assume those same qualities and still seem like they would exist. A good character feels real and fits into the role they are taking. Hell, even parody characters, so long as they are committed to that parody, can be good (The dentist from Psychonauts, for instance).

 

[Falseprophet]

Are you basically saying, can I appreciate a character as being well-written without liking the character as a person? If so, the answer is yes, absolutely. Jack and Samara are well-written characters, even if I wouldn't care to hang out with either of them IRL.

If you want an example of a poorly-written character in ME2, it's Miranda, mostly because she's a bundle of informed attributes [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAbility]: the game (and Miranda herself) keep telling us how superior she is to everybody else, how intelligent she is, and what a great leader she is, but her actions in cutscenes and dialogue don't support any of it, nor is she a particularly powerful squadmate in game (once I had Jack and Samara, I had no reason to bring Miranda along on missions).

 

[Katana314]

I don't think it's at all unrealistic for there to be mean and unwanted people in a universe like Mass Effect. However, as strange as it sounds, being surrounded by nothing but either nice people or dead-set villains is sometimes an acceptable break from reality. Just like in real life, we'd prefer to be working alongside people we generally like, who are funny, enjoyable, and have viewpoints somewhat similar to our own, plus a few character quirks we enjoy.

That said I sort of thought Jack could fit partly into the "nice people" regard, only given what she's been through and being able to understand that. It was the Justicar that I felt there was no way of identifying with.

Likewise to Jack in one of my favorite series, Phoenix Wright...

Spoiler

Lana Skye comes off as a rigid and complete ***** when she absolutely refuses to answer any of your questions, demands she get a guilty verdict, and seems to give the middle finger to you defending her case at all. It's only much later when you start to understand what kind of intense motivations would cause her to want her own guilty verdict, and by the very end she's able to smile and thank you for all your help.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I loved Jack. Pursuing her romance led to actual character development. I think hating characters because of the way they are written is perfectly acceptable. The writers want strong reactions to a character whether negative or positive. I never understood the hate for Jack, though. You try being tortured as a child for years and then find yourself working with the people that did it.

 

[Woodsey]

No, you don't.

I can understand where the confusion comes from, but not liking a character for a reason that's down to their personality (and not them being dull, poorly written, 2 dimensional, etc) is just as much a sign of good writing as you liking them.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It's wierd. I thought Miranda was a bigger ***** than Jack... Jack was just a messed up kid in a way lashing out because she was totally emotionally scarred. Miranda should know better but still acts like a complete cow. I wanted to lay her out with an ultimate shepard punch when she had a go at Joker. *enrage*

I like both of the characters though becuase they are kind of realistic. Yeah Miranda is an ice queen but I get a big sister vibe off her (mostly becuase shes actually the spit of my big sister rofl) and I get a little sister vibe off Jack and Tali. Miranda is there to help me and nudge me in the right direction, Jack and Tali need my help.

So I guess in conclusion no I don't have to like a character to think they are well done. Look at Jacob for example he's a nice enough guy but the character is as wooden as a post. I sometimes think he was added as an afterthought for there to be a human male love interest.

I think men get so much better options for romance in that game lol, but maybe that's becuase I don't like the idea of alien sexy times :3

 

[Something Amyss]

I don't think I truly liked a single major player in Red Dead Redemption.

I did, however, find many of them to be good characters.

 

[mexicola]

Hating a character and recognizing they are nicely written aren't exclusive to each other. People hating Jack doesn't mean they consider her poorly executed in the context of the story so I don't know what you are upset about. But then again I also don't know what posts that got this reaction out of you contained so I don't want to be too preachy in cast they were just "LOL! Jack sux cuz she ***** lmao!!!!!"

 

[rokkolpo]

I hated Caim from Drakengard.
Because he was incredibly hate-able. A genuine douchebag.
But god was he an awesome character.

 

[StBishop]

I hated Morrigan for so long. But needing a mage due to decisions at the circle led me to only having her as an option, after a while (and almost every gift in the game) she grew on me.
I think it's good to make a *****/arse character and then develop them in such a way that, despite being an arse, they're nice to the PC.

That's a good character to me.

Making a character that's an arse for no reason, when they're supposed to be my companion, that's a dick move in my mind.

Making a character I don't like because I find them annoying is different. I hated Wakka from Final Fantasy X, but I know others who didn't so I think he's a decent character because he has appeal.

What you described for Jack (Not finished with ME yet, so not started ME2) is a shitty (in my mind) character to have as a companion but not a shitty character in general.

 

[Zhukov]

Hoookay! Let the reply parade begin!

I didn't like Jack that much.
As a character, I think she was well done.
But as me liking that character as a person? No.

Hannibal was a cannibalistic murderer, and a good character: I didn't like him as a person.
Jack was damaged goods, a *****, and a good character: I didn't like her as a person.

That's where I'm coming from, least ways.

Uh... yeah. That exactly what I was trying to get across.

Heh. You just said in six lines the same thing that took me six paragraphs. God damn it.

If you want an example of a poorly-written character in ME2, it's Miranda, mostly because she's a bundle of informed attributes [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAbility]: the game (and Miranda herself) keep telling us how superior she is to everybody else, how intelligent she is, and what a great leader she is, but her actions in cutscenes and dialogue don't support any of it, nor is she a particularly powerful squadmate in game.

It's wierd. I thought Miranda was a bigger ***** than Jack... Jack was just a messed up kid in a way lashing out because she was totally emotionally scarred. Miranda should know better but still acts like a complete cow. I wanted to lay her out with an ultimate shepard punch when she had a go at Joker. *enrage*

(Check it out! Two replies for the price of one!)

I wasn't entirely sure how to feel about Miranda. At first the whole engineered-to-be-perfect thing rubbed me up the wrong way. "You've got to be kidding me. That is your source of angst? You were made to be perfect? Woman, cry me a fucking river." But during her loyalty mission it becomes clear that her situation is far from ideal. Also, in Lair of the Shadow Broker there is a mention that her genetic engineering has rendered her permanently infertile. That would have to be a real kick in the... ovaries.

If I were going to hate Miranda, it would be for the boots. Seriously, who goes into a firefight dressed like that? I wanted to hug that one snarky Asari mercenary who calls her out on it.

It was the Justicar that I felt there was no way of identifying with.

But that was my point. She's an alien being who follows an alien code that is considered strange and outdated even by her own people. If we can't identify with that, might that not be an indicator of skilful characterization?

Although my point kind of fails when I remember that I actually sorta ended up liking her eventually. A couple of her lines following the conclusion to her loyalty mission were real heart-melters. At one point [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6lblObb7eo] she describes herself as "a broken old warrior", and slightly later on [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD6ULUrL8A4] as "a ruined vessel of sorrow and regret". She also says that, despite everything, she was intensely proud of Morinth. I found that oddly touching.

...in one of my favorite series, Phoenix Wright...

Spoiler

Lana Skye comes off as a rigid and complete ***** when she absolutely refuses to answer any of your questions, demands she get a guilty verdict, and seems to give the middle finger to you defending her case at all. It's only much later when you start to understand what kind of intense motivations would cause her to want her own guilty verdict, and by the very end she's able to smile and thank you for all your help.

Would you still consider her a well-executed character if she never warmed up? Or if she changed in a less agreeable way?

I certainly don't like Kratos, but I acknowledge that we was well-written for 1 entire game.

Heh. Nice shot.

I loved Jack. Pursuing her romance led to actual character development. I think hating characters because of the way they are written is perfectly acceptable. The writers want strong reactions to a character whether negative or positive. I never understood the hate for Jack, though. You try being tortured as a child for years and then find yourself working with the people that did it.

Yup. That was almost exactly how I felt.

(Achievement Unlocked: Confirmation)

I hated Morrigan for so long. But needing a mage due to decisions at the circle led me to only having her as an option, after a while (and almost every gift in the game) she grew on me.
I think it's good to make a *****/arse character and then develop them in such a way that, despite being an arse, they're nice to the PC.

That's a good character to me.

Making a character that's an arse for no reason, when they're supposed to be my companion, that's a dick move in my mind.

What you described for Jack (Not finished with ME yet, so not started ME2) is a shitty (in my mind) character to have as a companion but not a shitty character in general.

See, this is were I start getting confused. I don't see why a game should have to surround the protagonist with yes-men. I realise that this plays into the fact that games are often about wish-fulfillment, but I still find it excessive.

Personally, I liked Morrigan when she was making sarcastic remarks and calling me out on all my goody-two-shoes acts of charity to random strangers (read: side missions) while there was an entire world that needed saving.

That said, her later character development was still welcome.

 

[Baby Tea]

I don't see why a game should have to surround the protagonist with yes-men. I realise that this plays into the fact that games are often about wish-fulfillment, but I still find it excessive.

Agreed!
I found this was best, actually, in Dragon Age 2.
I know that game isn't spoken fondly of here on the internet, but I enjoyed it. And the Actual characters were one of the big reasons. Isabella? Totally left my group. So did Fenris. Why? Because we had staunchly different views, and they wouldn't stop being who they are.

I liked that.

Now, I loved ME2, but when you can end the game with everyone loving you and holding hands, that's a bit unrealistic. I enjoyed the moments of tension between crew members, but was disappointed when you could, with enough 'renegade' or 'paragon' points, smooth everything over.

I was a very peaceful man in DA2. Well, as much as a could be. But I was glad when moments where I attempted peace didn't work. That's realistic. That's real characterization! People don't always get along, no matter how much of a silver tongue you have or how much they like you. Sometimes choices must be made, and I saw more of that in DA2 then I did in ME2.

 

[Sehnsucht Engel]

So... while reading the numerous threads relating to the Mass Effect games I noticed a bit of hate toward the character Jack/Subject Zero. Now, we're not talking Metroid Other M-level hate or anything, just the normal everyday variety.

This didn't really come as a surprise. After all, she's an extremely aggressive female with a shaved head and tattoos. Her chances of being popular are pretty slim. But what struck me was that people weren't complaining about her being a poorly executed character, or being poorly voiced or whatnot. Rather, the leading complaint was, "She's a *****."

I loved Subject Zero. Seriously, she and Grunt are my favourite characters from the mass effect games. I liked her from the moment when I first saw her breaking out of prison. The only thing I didn't like about her, was that she wasn't into girls, so I couldn't cheat on Liara... I often play the "evil" or "*****" character myself when I get the chance in RPG's like mass effect.

 

[Katana314]

It was the Justicar that I felt there was no way of identifying with.

But that was my point. She's an alien being who follows an alien code that is considered strange and outdated even by her own people. If we can't identify with that, might that not be an indicator of skilful characterization?

I think it would be REALISTIC characterization, but not likable characterization. If a story like The Dark Knight can even make its villains somewhat "likable" while serving all their purposes, it's just better that way. You enjoy it more. The one exception I might make is when that sort of alienation does more than just vary the characterization, and actually serves some direct purpose in the storyline. For instance, incurring a possible war with the Justicars.

...in one of my favorite series, Phoenix Wright...

Spoiler

Lana Skye comes off as a rigid and complete ***** when she absolutely refuses to answer any of your questions, demands she get a guilty verdict, and seems to give the middle finger to you defending her case at all. It's only much later when you start to understand what kind of intense motivations would cause her to want her own guilty verdict, and by the very end she's able to smile and thank you for all your help.

Would you still consider her a well-executed character if she never warmed up? Or if she changed in a less agreeable way?

To put it simply, no, I don't think I would. Phoenix Wright cases tend to end in a very happy way after quite a lot of emotional trauma, and I don't think I'd prefer it any other way. Tragedy and moody characters are artsy and all, but in the end it's just generally not as satisfying.

 

[Frotality]

she is a *****.

but thats her entire fucking character. if you dont romance her, and no sane person would become attracted to someone who does nothing be act like an asshole to them IRL, then she has no other qualities. for me jack is a perfect example of why an understandable character personality has nothing to do with whether its good or not. she only has any sort of dimension when you romance her, but agian, what bloody reason would you do that for?! shes a psychotic killer who hates cerberus, who YOU are a part of, and all of her conversations end up with her humoring you until she gets fed up and says "fuck off"; WHO WOULD FIND THIS ATTRACTIVE?!

i get it. her life sucks. she has every reason to act the way she does. but intentionally unlikeable IS STILL UNLIKEABLE. i believe that those who like jack either romanced her not because they liked her but just to see how the hell it could possibly turn out, and/or to feel like the underdogs defending a disliked character.

she had all those tattoos that supposedly told a story; she was a hardcore as anyone could be; she had uniquely extreme experience with an 'adapt or die' lifestyle. but all bioware could make of that is "fuck you shepard" repeated 12 times until you romanced her. not a good character to me.