emotion in Western RPGs?

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VRaptorX

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I always hear people say how much better Western RPGs are. I just don't get it. I mean...I'm just going to do "fetch quest #1028266, and "clean out dungeon #12532829 over and over again. Yeah...take this to teh town...OK....now I'm starting to get a bit bored.....OK and....I did that for a slightly less powerful shield than the one I already have? You mean I've spent all these hours doing absolutly nothing to move the plot foward? I understand freeroaming but come on, this has gone beyond pointless. Anyone else feel this way?

I mean...yeah whoop dee doo an evil religious figurehead is summoning X monster to destroy world and only a group of 25 year olds at the oldest can save the world is a bit cliched but at least when I play for five hours I actually have an emotional attachment to these characters. I hate some, love others (be that what the devs wanted or not). But in a Western RPG...I can't even quarentee that I'll even know the characters freaking name yet because I'd be so lost fetching a cow for a farmer 20 minutes of horseback riding away in hopes that one of these 30 tasks given to me will let me hear the backstory of the world, villian, problem, something.
 

gibboss28

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You seem to have pretty much gone on about both Western and J-rpgs... And i dont get what this post is about... more expainy please?
 

tiredinnuendo

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I have a great deal of trouble recognizing "western" as a valid subclass of RPGs unless you're using it as a way of saying "not JRPGs". JRPGs tend to follow the same plotlines, stereotypes, and styles because that's Japanese culture, but to compare something like Fallout to something like Morrowind to something like Mass Effect and say that they're all in the same category.... hm.... they're pretty much completely different games.

Note: I'm sure that JRPGs, if you look hard enough, can be equally diverse. I have personally been burned too many times to keep trying to look hard. All I'm saying is that, in my experience, western RPGs are more diverse than JRPGs, and it's harder to put them all in the same box.

- J
 

JakubK666

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Yeah, you've played Oblivion.It's quite infamous within RPG communities.

Just keep trying, looking for your "perfect RPG". I wouldn't classify myself as an RPG fan but I couldn't take my eyes of KOTOR and 2.The Witcher looks promising too if it wasn't for the ten minute loading times on my 1gb Ram Vista.

Speaking of character attachment
I replayed about an hour of StarForge, wasting all my medpacks(which made the boss battle really hard) just so I could save Bastilla.
 

Natural Hazard

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i feel that emotional attachment in a western RPG is possible, it just depends on how you as a person can interact and find similarities with a character in a game.

Western RPGs allow you to do what you want some of the best games use this as a tool to sell there games. Take GTA [just an example] for example in real life you can't go around blowing shit up, well you can but u get my drift. Escapism, is the key word being something you want to be, but you no you never can be. So take you custom char, you wanna assasinate someone ingame, sure you can theres gonna be no punishment in the real world..... but what about the virtual world? What effects that gonna have in game? You gonna be running away from the guards for the entire game? You don't have to be in the real world to be brave. How many times do people back out on online games becasue they are afraid of getting beat? How many times don't you wanna go kill that monster becasue it might kick the crap out of you? Your reacting to your own personal thoughts of what to do, you find yourself trapped in a city on the run from guards... your fearful becasue if you get caught your buggered. Take the opposite side of the spectrum in real life, your worthless have a lack of self esteem. But in a game you can release your true feelings, save some people, kill some bad guys.

Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but having a character that you made, that you can express in a virtual world in a emotional kind of way, applies to somebody.
 

sammyfreak

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There are some nice emotional moments in JRPGs i guess. But somewhere in the mid 90ies they all fell into a giant rut and stayed there and did absolutely nothing new at all.

But unlike the FF games, stuff like Mass Effect makes me silently mourn at times. Even Oblivion (No, seriously) made me feel more atached to the world around me then most JRPGs.

Also, FFX has the worst two protagonists in the history of media.
 

Easykill

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Does Mass Effect count? Because that's the only game I've ever gotten emotional over.
 

Mr_Cynical

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sammyfreak said:
Also, FFX has the worst two protagonists in the history of media.
I assume you're referring to Tidus here, but i'd like to point out that Cloud and Squall from ffvii and ffviii were both moody, whiney bastards.

that being said, i did thoroughly enjoy both games...
 

sammyfreak

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Mr_Cynical said:
sammyfreak said:
Also, FFX has the worst two protagonists in the history of media.
I assume you're referring to Tidus here, but i'd like to point out that Cloud and Squall from ffvii and ffviii were both moody, whiney bastards.

that being said, i did thoroughly enjoy both games...
I never did play FFVIII, but i actualy thought Cloud was actualy a great character. But yes Tidus is a complete cretin and Yuna if possible is worse. On the other hand Auron was briliant, why couldent he have been the main character?
 

propertyofcobra

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VRaptorX said:
OK..Cloud...Squall...Tidus I can understand....but what was the problem with Zidane?
He was an annoying loud misogynist. (He squeezes Garnet's ass like three times in the first disc) And after a lovely new mature direction the series was taking, FF9 suddenly backlashed to corny pre-FF6, which some Final Fantasy fans were unhappy with.
 

VRaptorX

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pre FF6? yeah...we had subjects of teen pregnancy, achoholism, drug abuse, death, betrayal, etc in those 2D FF games. Having lighthearted momments doesn't mean it isn't dark. Godzilla vs Hedorah had Godzilla using his atomic breath to fly. It was funny, but the plot of the movie itself was very dark as a whole. A few corny momments doesn't mean it isn't mature.
 

propertyofcobra

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...you're seriously saying you can't see any difference at all between the Sony and the Nintendo Final Fantasies?
Are you blind, VRaptorX? Just curious.

Edit: I admit that art direction is the biggest difference, but I have to say that FF6 was more of a "Sony"-styled Final Fantasy than a "Nintendo"-styled final fantasy, when looking upon it in retrospect. For the darker and more realistic (not to mention futuristic) art direction, if nothing else.

Either way, Zidane was a big step backwards to a lot of people. Not to mention that he's uncool compared to Cloud, Squall and even freaking Tidus and Vaan!
He's LESS COOL than TIDUS and VAAN...
Okay, maybe not Vaan. He's about equal to Vaan.
 

Razzle Bathbone

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Emotional moments in JRPGs are scripted.

Emotional moments in western RPGs tend to occur organically.

In a JRPG, every detail of every character is decided by the game developers. You, the player, have no say in the matter. You don't get to choose the characters' names, you don't get to choose their appearance, gender, backstory, personality, nothing. So yes, they might get into intense relationships with other characters, but it's only the game developers who make this happen. You the player have nothing to do with it.

In a western RPG, the character becomes what you make it. If you sit there passively and wait to be entertained, there isn't much to them. They require you to actually roleplay. You have to use some imagination.

This doesn't mean western RPGs can't suck (oh my can they ever) and it doesn't mean JRPGs can't be good. But if you want to play a role, don't play JRPGs. There's no RP in JRPG.
 

Pyre1million

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I must be an oddity in two ways. First, I adored FFX. I should say that I haven't played many Final Fantasy games, but even so FFX struck me as a very well done game, and I've never been able to comprehend the myriad problems people have with it: I never found the story confusing or far-fetched (for a fantasy world of high sorcery and technology), and I liked most of the characters, probably including a few others heavily dislike (I thought Yuna was a great character, for example, as she was not the stereotype of 'utterly helpless healer').

I only reference these things because they are representative of the problems people tend to have with most JRPGS.

Static plotlines that never branch
(the world will explode or it won't completely regardless of what you as a player do),

Constantly recurring stereotypes among main characters (There will ALWAYS be the lifemage girlfriend, the tall, brooding assassin-y guy, the child/child-like character, etc. and they will always look very similar to or the same as character XYZ from any given other game),

Constantly recurring plotlines (discussed below)


And finally you have specific little things, like invisible walls or small rocks preventing access to a goal, turn-based combat (with notable exceptions both good and bad), and general same-ness.

Psychologically speaking, JRPG's aren't really about "roleplaying". Rather, they're about power fantasies: playing the grand, and often nigh-perfect hero or imposing and cool anti-hero, gathering ever greater powers, weapons and skills, and saving the world from a threat that, at least post the mid-nineties, often took the shape of every mortal evil and then monstrous evil (typically via an evil corporation/religion that crushes people's lives and wants to take over the world with a superpower but is actually being manipulated by a single super-powerful and insane individual within the structure for his own nefarious world-destroying ends).

Western RPG's, on the other hand, are ONLY about roleplaying. The world is as wide open as developers can possibly make it and still have something resembling a plotline (I am using Morrowind, Oblivion and the little I played of Planescape: Torment as examples). You are free to interact with NPC's in nearly any way you choose, including killing them, with realistic consequences. And instead of arbitrary invisible walls, actual terrain features prevent access to new places. The plot of each Western RPG is distinctly different. And while power fantasies play a part to be sure, it's much more difficult to achieve a state of godhood over the enemies you're fighting. Prior to the advent of games like this, you had to go to Dungeons and Dragons or a similar pencil-and-paper game to achieve a similar experience.

Personally, I agree with VRaptorX: However much they may have certain advantages going for them, Western RPGs infuriate me. "Spend forever just creating your character! Adventure in a wide-open world and interact with hundreds or thousands of NPCs however you wish! What's the main quest? How do you even reliably get from one place to another?? Who knows, who cares?! You have someone's pants to find!".

Given that, I far prefer what JRPG's have to offer: I find truly dramatic and emotional scenes (Aeris' death, or Lavtiz's in Legend of Dragoon under functionally the same circumstances, the collapse of the underwater city in the same game) or legitimate heart-rending ones (Celes' reaction should Cid die in the World of Ruin) occur far more often in JRPG's, and are infinitely more involving.

But my experiences with Western RPG's haven't been completely sour, and here I want to try and wrap up my above ranting into a definitive point, one others have already made much more succinctly (beat me to it while I was writing this monstrosity of a post): the entire appeal of Western RPGs (Regardless of sub-genre, as this is Mass Effect's ENTIRE claim to fame) is the sheer amount of actual roleplaying you can do.

Developers strive to make everything as close to a "realistic fantasy situation" as possible. Sure there are certain limits, but in a good game even the limits work well with the overall goal. And there are problems, to be sure: repetitive quests, "leveled" enemies that equate to "You die HARD if you haven't done things a very specific way", a main plot that's nearly impossible to find, and a clinical detachment from the characters, even the one you're playing.

But many of these problems arise from the sheer freedom the player is afforded. You can do ANYTHING you want, if you're willing to deal with the consequences. And you aren't an invincible god right off the bat: you have to earn it. And the problems don't occur universally, as they tend to in JRPGs; Planescape: Torment attaches you to characters right from the start. Oblivion far surpasses its predecessor in travel, combat and ability to follow its own plot. Deux Ex Machina is supposed to be a golden gift from heaven, etc.


The trick is to try and stick to the good Western RPG's, if at all possible. If you don't, you begin to tire of the problems very, very quickly: just as you would with JRPG's. And if the problems with the former get to you regardless, well, then it's just purely a matter of taste.
 

ofthemist

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Mar 23, 2008
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There is a completely different feel for each style of game. WRPG's seem to be more for gameplay and interaction and JRPG's are more like interactive novels or movies. Do you whine if you can't control who a character is in a book or movie or that they do something you don't want them to? Why do it in a video game designed with a set story in mind?

WRPG's while entertaining weren't meant for that. As I said earlier it wasn't meant to be the same thing. You never really even need to complete the main quest in order to get what you want from a game. You play our your life in a fantasy world.

As for the cliches among JRPG's it continues on into most methods of story telling whether it's the character, big baddy, or anything else. Not too much is original and FF for instance has been going for how many games? Not just those numbered in the series but we could include the two animes, two movies, side games, strategy games, etc. Something is bound to be repeated.

Now that I've said my bit I have to defend my bro Zidane. I can honestly say I have missed a few FF's but he was the first cheery character I ever ran into that wasn't the pointlessly annoying backup character (Yuffie for instance). It was a step away from the cliche dark and dreary (or whiny in the case of Squall). As a correction also he only grabbed Dagger's ass once in the entirety of the game.

I could go on and on and on about the dispute over the superiority of one FF game over another (and characters) but this thread is not for that. I don't mind PMs or invitations to threads based around that if someone doesn't mind a dispute.