Bonus: Mass Effect 3 With Spoilers Part 3
A further look into all things Mass Effect 3.
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A further look into all things Mass Effect 3.
Watch Video
Escapist Podcast: Bonus: Mass Effect 3 With Spoilers Part 3
- Thread starter The Escapist Staff
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Not done listening yet, but I wanted to post this (again) before I forget by the end. I did some math on the ending(s). For funzies.
<quote=me>
Let's say you only consider the "ending" to be everything after your final choices. So that means there are 7 endings that are different, right?
1) Destroy - Very Bad
2) Destroy - Bad
3) Destroy - Good
4) Destroy - Good + Shepard lives
5) Control - Bad
6) Control - Good
7) Synthesis
But wait! The people who get out of the Normandy at the end aren't always the same. So the Synthesis ending would have 7 distinct variations (Joker + Edi + 1 of the seven other squadmates). Just including that we already on 13 different endings. Adding just the other two(three) "good" version of the ending where it's Joker + 2 squadmates, we get 56 different possibilities each (8 potential people stepping out first, 7 potential people stepping out second). I think the bad versions have only 1 person step out, so that's about 8 variations for them. So now it's:
Ending 1: Destroy - Very Bad
Endings 2-9: Destroy - Bad (EDI can't step out so it's only 7 variations)
Endings 8-50: Destroy - Good
Endings 50-92: Destroy - Good + Shepard lives
Endings 92-100: Control - Bad
Endings 100-156: Control - Good
Endings 156-162: Synthesis
Holy crap, that's a lot of endings. Then if move the marker for the "beginning" of the "ending" to the conversation with the starchild (it's different' based on your EMS and if you destroyed the collector base in ME2) you have even more! Holy crap!
Now, taking it one (large) step even further. If you consider the entirety of Mass Effect 3 as the ending to the Mass Effect series, then you have a incredible amount of "endings."
Okay, there you go people. BioWare didn't lie about how many endings there were.
Please no one assume I'm defending the ending or the "promise" that was made. I'm simply pointing out that it's very silly to attach to one statement and use that as a basis for being "lied" to.
Edit: did some math wrong. I think it's right now.
<quote=me>
Hell you can go a lot deeper than that depending on how you look at it.some guy said:
Let's say you only consider the "ending" to be everything after your final choices. So that means there are 7 endings that are different, right?
1) Destroy - Very Bad
2) Destroy - Bad
3) Destroy - Good
4) Destroy - Good + Shepard lives
5) Control - Bad
6) Control - Good
7) Synthesis
But wait! The people who get out of the Normandy at the end aren't always the same. So the Synthesis ending would have 7 distinct variations (Joker + Edi + 1 of the seven other squadmates). Just including that we already on 13 different endings. Adding just the other two(three) "good" version of the ending where it's Joker + 2 squadmates, we get 56 different possibilities each (8 potential people stepping out first, 7 potential people stepping out second). I think the bad versions have only 1 person step out, so that's about 8 variations for them. So now it's:
Ending 1: Destroy - Very Bad
Endings 2-9: Destroy - Bad (EDI can't step out so it's only 7 variations)
Endings 8-50: Destroy - Good
Endings 50-92: Destroy - Good + Shepard lives
Endings 92-100: Control - Bad
Endings 100-156: Control - Good
Endings 156-162: Synthesis
Holy crap, that's a lot of endings. Then if move the marker for the "beginning" of the "ending" to the conversation with the starchild (it's different' based on your EMS and if you destroyed the collector base in ME2) you have even more! Holy crap!
Now, taking it one (large) step even further. If you consider the entirety of Mass Effect 3 as the ending to the Mass Effect series, then you have a incredible amount of "endings."
Okay, there you go people. BioWare didn't lie about how many endings there were.
Please no one assume I'm defending the ending or the "promise" that was made. I'm simply pointing out that it's very silly to attach to one statement and use that as a basis for being "lied" to.
Edit: did some math wrong. I think it's right now.
Listening to the second half now, but this is in answer to a alt ending Justin was talking about.
http://arkis.deviantart.com/art/Mass-Effect-3-Alternate-Endings-SPOILERS-289902125
That is the ending he was speaking about.
http://arkis.deviantart.com/art/Mass-Effect-3-Alternate-Endings-SPOILERS-289902125
That is the ending he was speaking about.
I like the idea behind the krogan and the fish determining the ending. There is a little hidden bonus in the game around your fish. You have to import a save with a live Prejek Paddlefish (purchased on Illium) in Mass Effect 2 where you had Kelly take care of them. Then if you get it back from her in ME3 and then keep it alive through all of Mass Effect 3, if you start a new game with your ME3 character, you get a Intel Bonus from Liara's Quarters on the Normandy which gives you a 10% bonus to either Weapon Damage or Power Damage.
Some comments
Part of the issue was that they retconned you in to the corner by removing stuff like the Thranix cannons (beam weapons) and the armour etc so that you didn't have as much of a chance, despite them not really meaning that anyone was going to one shot a reaper
I don't think we have to use spoiler tags in the thread, folks, though I do appreciate you being considerate of other readers. The podcast itself is spoilertastic, so it should be safe assuming that anyone chiming in here knows the drill.
In regards to the person filing an FTC complaint.
Last year the most important news to gamers was that video games(interactive media) are now considered art by the Supreme Court of America. This was a great victory for freedom of expression and common sense.
This year a gamer and NOT a politician or demagog is trying to bring legal action against a piece of interactive art(Mass Effect 3). I would have serious doubts that any judge hearing this case wouldn't just laugh the plaintiff out of the room.
Isn't labeling video games art specifically for the purpose of protecting the makers from legal persecution at the whims of a single person or a few individuals? Thus insuring that artists(game makers) are free to create?
Trying to make an exception for one game that you were personally unhappy with does unfortunately ring with the most sour tones of Hypocrisy.
Last year the most important news to gamers was that video games(interactive media) are now considered art by the Supreme Court of America. This was a great victory for freedom of expression and common sense.
This year a gamer and NOT a politician or demagog is trying to bring legal action against a piece of interactive art(Mass Effect 3). I would have serious doubts that any judge hearing this case wouldn't just laugh the plaintiff out of the room.
Isn't labeling video games art specifically for the purpose of protecting the makers from legal persecution at the whims of a single person or a few individuals? Thus insuring that artists(game makers) are free to create?
Trying to make an exception for one game that you were personally unhappy with does unfortunately ring with the most sour tones of Hypocrisy.
So yeah, I'm that guy who clicked on the spoiler tag and was mad anyway. I dunno if you noticed, but the spoiler in question was what Tali's face looked like, and the thing I was mad about was that out of nowhere it says "TALI KILLS HERSELF."
That likely makes no difference to you, but it seemed pretty unnecessary to put that little tidbit of text in when all you were doing was showing a comparison between the original stock photo and the version that ended up in the game.
Also, why isn't Butts in this? I thought he was a big Mass Effect fan?
That likely makes no difference to you, but it seemed pretty unnecessary to put that little tidbit of text in when all you were doing was showing a comparison between the original stock photo and the version that ended up in the game.
Also, why isn't Butts in this? I thought he was a big Mass Effect fan?
He hasn't finished the game yet! We're trying really, really hard to keep things as spoiler free as possible for him.Rassmusseum said:
This podcast brought up the point of Shepard not being the person who would favor worship. That reminds me of WH40K universe.
(I am not very familiar with it, only played Soulstorm and DoW2, but my friend told me some lore along the way)
Emperor of Mankind did not want to become a god, but wound up as one, despite his efforts (wiki tells me worshiping him was a crime when he was still kicking, without the Golden Throne).
It's kind of a standard plot:
1. become an underdog
2. unify/defend/battle/... with style and appropriate awesomeness
3. tell everyone you're not all that cool
4. ???
5. die and become God
(I am not very familiar with it, only played Soulstorm and DoW2, but my friend told me some lore along the way)
Emperor of Mankind did not want to become a god, but wound up as one, despite his efforts (wiki tells me worshiping him was a crime when he was still kicking, without the Golden Throne).
It's kind of a standard plot:
1. become an underdog
2. unify/defend/battle/... with style and appropriate awesomeness
3. tell everyone you're not all that cool
4. ???
5. die and become God
Dang, that's too bad...I love that guy! Anyway, about the spoiler thing on Tali's face, I realize that was a stupid post for me to make. I said so in an e-mail I sent, and I'll say so again here: I was out of line, sorry about that.Susan Arendt said:
What wonderful timing! I just finished Mass Effect 3 afew hours ago.
I wanted to ask you guys (and in particular Susan) so many questions about the characters and the ending and just discuss stuff. I don't have anyone around me that plays the game so no vent for me as it were
Don't suppose I still can here?
Oh yeah, I listened to the first 2 popcats twice each. Once before getting the game. Once after getting halfway. I must say as first it seemed ok to spoil myself alittle. I didn't mind. But after the second time listening to them, they felt... well... lets just say there was more closure than the endings.
I wanted to ask you guys (and in particular Susan) so many questions about the characters and the ending and just discuss stuff. I don't have anyone around me that plays the game so no vent for me as it were
Don't suppose I still can here?
Oh yeah, I listened to the first 2 popcats twice each. Once before getting the game. Once after getting halfway. I must say as first it seemed ok to spoil myself alittle. I didn't mind. But after the second time listening to them, they felt... well... lets just say there was more closure than the endings.
In regards to there only being one way to beat the reapers via a magic space gun.
The Reapers were presented in the first game as unbeatable. When Shepard talks to the Prothean data core he gets to hear how the Reapers come every 50,000 years. Not only this but that every single race that fights the reapers has lost and lost badly.
It is related to the trap that the Reapers set up. They know that intelligent races will find the mass relays and use them. They know that all the relays lead to The Citadel. They know that they will reverse engineer the mass effect technology to make their own weapons, ships, and build settlements throughout the galaxy. That is their plan. The Reapers know exactly what to expect when they come to harvest one species and sterilize the galaxy of all others.
You are able to beat ONE Reaper in ME 1 and 2. Both times it took everything you had and then some. Trying to fight an armada of Reapers it is impossible to win because they have already calculated victory. The Reapers know exactly how many they are going to lose in the fight, how many new reapers they will make from humanity, and how long it will take.
There needs to be some sort of Deus Ex(see what I did there?) Machina used in order to beat them. This happens at the end of Predator 2. After Danny Glover defeats the one predator inside the ship several predators appear. At this moment Danny Glover says "Who's Next?" if memory serves me correctly. It is only by the alien traditions of the predators that Danny is saved as the Predators give him an old gun(trophy) and leave earth.
I love that line that Danny Glover gives. It represents humanities spirit and ability to never give up in the face of defeat. But he would have died if it wasn't for circumstances beyond his control.
Of course I really hope the Indoctrination theory holds true and you can have a Bad Ass moment were you and your crew kill all the reapers. You know to indulge in my hero fantasy.
The Reapers were presented in the first game as unbeatable. When Shepard talks to the Prothean data core he gets to hear how the Reapers come every 50,000 years. Not only this but that every single race that fights the reapers has lost and lost badly.
It is related to the trap that the Reapers set up. They know that intelligent races will find the mass relays and use them. They know that all the relays lead to The Citadel. They know that they will reverse engineer the mass effect technology to make their own weapons, ships, and build settlements throughout the galaxy. That is their plan. The Reapers know exactly what to expect when they come to harvest one species and sterilize the galaxy of all others.
You are able to beat ONE Reaper in ME 1 and 2. Both times it took everything you had and then some. Trying to fight an armada of Reapers it is impossible to win because they have already calculated victory. The Reapers know exactly how many they are going to lose in the fight, how many new reapers they will make from humanity, and how long it will take.
There needs to be some sort of Deus Ex(see what I did there?) Machina used in order to beat them. This happens at the end of Predator 2. After Danny Glover defeats the one predator inside the ship several predators appear. At this moment Danny Glover says "Who's Next?" if memory serves me correctly. It is only by the alien traditions of the predators that Danny is saved as the Predators give him an old gun(trophy) and leave earth.
I love that line that Danny Glover gives. It represents humanities spirit and ability to never give up in the face of defeat. But he would have died if it wasn't for circumstances beyond his control.
Of course I really hope the Indoctrination theory holds true and you can have a Bad Ass moment were you and your crew kill all the reapers. You know to indulge in my hero fantasy.
FTC complaint
I think FTC guy is in the right.
Not necessarily for trying to get them sued for false advertizement (Which they DID) but as a form of protest it works. If he just asked for his money back would you remember him? Would Bioware remember him? Nope.
He just tried to make the biggest splash he could, and succeeded.
What are the chances it's going to stick. Slim to none, but you'll remember what it was about long after it blows over.
Art Vs. Product
Justin, just come out and say it. Game devs and publishers expect us to buy DLC.
What we're asking for (In essence) is more premium DLC.
Fans of Mass Effect are just trying to get a (What was popularly seen as a) crappy system to work for them.
Books, movies, TV shows don't operate that way so changing the ending isn't practical.
Games, and even Bioware has been changing endings via DLC for a long time. (Fallout 3, Mass Effect 2, Prince of Persia, Portal, Dragon Age Origins, Half Life 2, etc)
The only difference is that this time fans are demanding it.
Non-game Alternate Ending
How would they take all your choices into account?
At least with an in game text crawl they could see all the choices you made.
A "separate" alternate ending would have to be vague enough to not change no matter what Shepard chose to do, or even their gender.
It would have to be about the Normandy after it crashed on the Lost Island. (Note: EDI, Tali, Garrus, Cortez, Ashley or Kaiden) couldn't be there, because they might not have survived up to that point depending on your choices.
That's why I think the Dragon Age Origin/Animal House flash cards would work in a kind of hand waving half arsed way.
How about if the Crucible was just a Giant cannon that could blow up a Reaper, and the end was just Shepard blowing up Reapers while the credits rolled in the back ground.
It could play out like an RTS where you have all your fleets and you maneuver them around to buy the crucible enough time to charge up the next shot. Wouldn't that be something?
Favorite character
Looks like everybody took Garrus on all their missions huh?
I hardly ever took Garrus, unless I wanted his personality around. The most mechanically useful squad mate (Not to mention my favorite character) was Tali. Shield drain > Overload. Combat Drone > anything else.
Also Mordin resonates with me a lot because I spontaneously break into singing Tom Lehrer's Element Song the same way Mordin sings Scientist Salarian.
Would I think less of Bioware if they changed the ending?
I could not possibly think less of Bioware than I do right now.
They could come to my house and kick me in the balls, and I would not think less of them.
I also come from the unpopular vantage of saying the ending isn't even the biggest problem Mass Effect 3 has, and after Dragon Age 2.
James Cameron just returned from the bottom of the Marianas Trench because he was looking for where Bioware has set their bar. Ba-Dum Tish.
Mass Effect 4?
Have you already forgotten Dragon Age 2.
Bioware can not write a small personal story to save their lives.
Every problem DA2 has stems from the story being personal and ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Letting players choose their own personality in a situation where the universe isn't in peril leads to contrived party member motivations, (EG: why did Verric help you if you didn't get along?) and even more contrived player character motivations. (EG: why did goofball Hawke care about who ran Kirkwal. Why did mean Hawke care if you lived in Hightown or not)
The only situation I can see working is the First Contact War because at that point all the human characters thought they were going to get wiped out.
Or how about this. A prequel to your Shepard's story. where you play through their origin story that you picked. (Soul Survivor, Ruthless, War Hero) I don't know that they could stretch a whole game out of that, but it would be more Shepard.
I would play Citadel Noire though.
Question
Does anybody else remember Leliana's Song from Dragon Age Origin?
How would you feel about a compilation of mini stories in that same vein but about Garrus on Omega. Or Tali on Hestrom. Mordin running the clinic. Or Miranda and Jacob stopping the Batarians on the Citadel. How Jack ended up in Purgatory.
Stuff like that where you didn't have any real control over the outcome or the personality, but stuff you want to see none the less?
End question
I think FTC guy is in the right.
Not necessarily for trying to get them sued for false advertizement (Which they DID) but as a form of protest it works. If he just asked for his money back would you remember him? Would Bioware remember him? Nope.
He just tried to make the biggest splash he could, and succeeded.
What are the chances it's going to stick. Slim to none, but you'll remember what it was about long after it blows over.
Art Vs. Product
Justin, just come out and say it. Game devs and publishers expect us to buy DLC.
What we're asking for (In essence) is more premium DLC.
Fans of Mass Effect are just trying to get a (What was popularly seen as a) crappy system to work for them.
Books, movies, TV shows don't operate that way so changing the ending isn't practical.
Games, and even Bioware has been changing endings via DLC for a long time. (Fallout 3, Mass Effect 2, Prince of Persia, Portal, Dragon Age Origins, Half Life 2, etc)
The only difference is that this time fans are demanding it.
Non-game Alternate Ending
How would they take all your choices into account?
At least with an in game text crawl they could see all the choices you made.
A "separate" alternate ending would have to be vague enough to not change no matter what Shepard chose to do, or even their gender.
It would have to be about the Normandy after it crashed on the Lost Island. (Note: EDI, Tali, Garrus, Cortez, Ashley or Kaiden) couldn't be there, because they might not have survived up to that point depending on your choices.
That's why I think the Dragon Age Origin/Animal House flash cards would work in a kind of hand waving half arsed way.
How about if the Crucible was just a Giant cannon that could blow up a Reaper, and the end was just Shepard blowing up Reapers while the credits rolled in the back ground.
It could play out like an RTS where you have all your fleets and you maneuver them around to buy the crucible enough time to charge up the next shot. Wouldn't that be something?
Favorite character
Looks like everybody took Garrus on all their missions huh?
I hardly ever took Garrus, unless I wanted his personality around. The most mechanically useful squad mate (Not to mention my favorite character) was Tali. Shield drain > Overload. Combat Drone > anything else.
Also Mordin resonates with me a lot because I spontaneously break into singing Tom Lehrer's Element Song the same way Mordin sings Scientist Salarian.
Would I think less of Bioware if they changed the ending?
I could not possibly think less of Bioware than I do right now.
They could come to my house and kick me in the balls, and I would not think less of them.
I also come from the unpopular vantage of saying the ending isn't even the biggest problem Mass Effect 3 has, and after Dragon Age 2.
James Cameron just returned from the bottom of the Marianas Trench because he was looking for where Bioware has set their bar. Ba-Dum Tish.
Mass Effect 4?
Have you already forgotten Dragon Age 2.
Bioware can not write a small personal story to save their lives.
Every problem DA2 has stems from the story being personal and ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Letting players choose their own personality in a situation where the universe isn't in peril leads to contrived party member motivations, (EG: why did Verric help you if you didn't get along?) and even more contrived player character motivations. (EG: why did goofball Hawke care about who ran Kirkwal. Why did mean Hawke care if you lived in Hightown or not)
The only situation I can see working is the First Contact War because at that point all the human characters thought they were going to get wiped out.
Or how about this. A prequel to your Shepard's story. where you play through their origin story that you picked. (Soul Survivor, Ruthless, War Hero) I don't know that they could stretch a whole game out of that, but it would be more Shepard.
I would play Citadel Noire though.
Question
Does anybody else remember Leliana's Song from Dragon Age Origin?
How would you feel about a compilation of mini stories in that same vein but about Garrus on Omega. Or Tali on Hestrom. Mordin running the clinic. Or Miranda and Jacob stopping the Batarians on the Citadel. How Jack ended up in Purgatory.
Stuff like that where you didn't have any real control over the outcome or the personality, but stuff you want to see none the less?
End question
Mikeyfell, I think a compilation of small stories similar to Leliana's Song would be awesome, and I'd probably buy it. They've proven that they can make combat for different species in the multiplayer, so it wouldn't even be a big jump.