Escapist Podcast: PAX Panel: What Women Really Want From Female Characters

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The Escapist Staff

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Jul 10, 2006
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PAX Panel: What Women Really Want From Female Characters

Join Susan Arendt, Brittany Aubert, Christa Carter, Kathleen DeVere and AJ Glasser as they discuss what they embrace in female fictional characters and why these attributes are important. They will identify their favorite characters and how they would like more heroines with similar attributes integrated into Geek culture.

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LokiArchetype

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Nov 11, 2009
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Had to stop the podcast and comment because this bothered me so much.

Bringing up the argument of why FemShep has to be attractive when MaleShep isn't is a curious one, that is to say, its curious because of how mindbendingly wrong it is on every level.

1. Male Shepard has the likeness of a Dutch Model.

2. Have these people never played a JRPG in their life? There are plenty of 'pretty' male protagonists (and antagonists for that matter).

3. In Western culture this is less common because masculine beauty is associated with ruggedness so male characters aren't necessarily pretty but they still reflect our cultural standards of beauty, albeit it a caricature of them (which is true for females as well).

4. On the most basic level, we're talking about visual designs which are, by very nature, chosen based on visual appeal. Visual appeal is essentially attractiveness, so all character designs are chosen based on what amounts to attractiveness. Even if an older, war-scarred FemShep was chosen, she'd still have been chosen based on visual appeal.

5. As a guy, I prefer having an attractive male character to play as and I'm jealous women got to choose FemShep and men didn't get to choose MaleShep.
 

Formica Archonis

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Nov 13, 2009
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Awww, just audio? Come on, reactions [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap3h9-yfrnQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=500s] to the demo images at the panel at PAX East were comedy gold!
 

Susan Arendt

Nerd Queen
Jan 9, 2007
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Formica Archonis said:
Awww, just audio? Come on, reactions [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap3h9-yfrnQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=500s] to the demo images at the panel at PAX East were comedy gold!
Glad you appreciate my comedic stylings. :) Sorry for the lack of video, but perhaps some will crop up somewhere.
 

burningdragoon

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Jul 27, 2009
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Boo on lack of video, but I lived with it. Just means I'll have to actually make plans to go to either PAX next year.

Overall I liked what I heard, but I do have little tiny nitpick. You (twice now) mention Lightning from FFXIII as being the main character was both a big deal and a major disappointment (since she was awful) BUT way back in the day, FF3/6 brought us Terra as the (mostly) main character. She probably has plenty typical issue with female characters, but I always thought of her as a solid character. Probably some fair differences that make Lightning a bigger deal what with the technological advancements and such. Still, good characters are good characters.
 

Diana Kingston-Gabai

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Aug 3, 2010
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burningdragoon said:
Overall I liked what I heard, but I do have little tiny nitpick. You (twice now) mention Lightning from FFXIII as being the main character was both a big deal and a major disappointment (since she was awful) BUT way back in the day, FF3/6 brought us Terra as the (mostly) main character. She probably has plenty typical issue with female characters, but I always thought of her as a solid character. Probably some fair differences that make Lightning a bigger deal what with the technological advancements and such. Still, good characters are good characters.
In fact, while FF6 is slightly ambiguous in terms of just who the "main character" actually is, the only other contender for that role is Celes - another woman. :)
 

Talshere

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Ty for the panel it was very interesting.

I actually find it quite ironic. I read a LOT of fantasy books to the point there isnt much left for me to pick up in my local book stores, and generically I find (obviously with some exceptions on both sides) that the female characters generate more compelling storys specifically because male leads quickly become type cast and generally all end in the same place. Funnily I find that some of the most compelling male leads bizzarly come from the Horus Heresy Warhammer 40k series (I dont normally read sci-fi) which is odd because they are ALL battle grizzled veterans, in books about war, which is what I so often find off putting about male leads in fantasy.

Generally I think this comes round to your comment of intent outweighing "type" though I would be interested in your opinion if you are a big reader.

EDIT: I thought Id mention this is irrelevant of male or female author. Even men see to write better female characters than the average male one. Could this be because only better writers take the challenge of writing from a perspective that is perhaps alien to them? Therefore leaving quote unquote "bad writers" doing 1000's of copy past male leads?
 

Tandtroll

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Oct 18, 2009
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I must say that while it is a bit of a marketing ploy, this whole choose your femshep thing, I am happy for the fact that we get an official one at all that will hopefully be used in the campaigns. I know it annoyed me to NO END that there was no female Hawke in the promotions for DA2. If I had not loved DA:Origins so much I would NOT have bought the second game based solely on their marketing.
 

KaiusCormere

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Talshere said:
Funnily I find that some of the most compelling male leads bizzarly come from the Horus Heresy Warhammer 40k series (I dont normally read sci-fi) which is odd because they are ALL battle grizzled veterans, in books about war, which is what I so often find off putting about male leads in fantasy.
The Horus Heresy is my favorite recent series(post Harry Potter), and it's the very fact that they were FORCED to come up with ways to make the space marines distinct from each other that added such depth to the characters. When you have one space marine, you tend to make him fit the stereotype to a T, and the result is bland, boring, one dimensional. When you have two dozen, you can't keep doing that. You start to pick apart the stereotype and define the characters as more than just their job. Not to say it wasn't good writing, of course.
 

Freechoice

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Dec 6, 2010
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I never understood the "character I need to relate to" mindset. I think what should be said is "a character I can sympathize with." I honestly would not care if the character I was playing had a higher pitch combat grunt than, say, Marcus Fenix. If you absolutely need to feel human by attaching yourself to the character, the primary facet should be the story, not the gender. Somehow, someway, I am calling AJ sexist.
 

Eleima

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Feb 21, 2010
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Thanks so much for posting this on the site for the rest of us who didn't get the chance to attend PAX!! Only halfway through, and greatly enjoying it.

I do have one thing to say about FemShep though, you *can* give her scars in ME1, even if marketing decided to do away with those (but then again, they did the same to MaleShep, all scars disappeared in ME2; which is a shame, I thought they added distinction to my characters).

I agree 100% with the need to relate and sympathize with the characters, even if it's to a small degree. But that's true for both male and female characters.

Lovin' the discussion about motherhood as well, and agree 200% (even though as a mom-to-be, I sure hope I won't have to die "to protect my young"! XD ). And I too loved Ripley in the first movie too because she saved her cat, Jones. =D

This a great listen, thanks for posting the podcast!!
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Mar 16, 2011
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Freechoice said:
I never understood the "character I need to relate to" mindset. I think what should be said is "a character I can sympathize with." I honestly would not care if the character I was playing had a higher pitch combat grunt than, say, Marcus Fenix. If you absolutely need to feel human by attaching yourself to the character, the primary facet should be the story, not the gender. Somehow, someway, I am calling AJ sexist.
I don't know I kind of understand where she is coming from when I play a game with a male lead like Crysis 2 (which I think is a good game) it feels like I am watching someone else's story even though Alcatraz is pretty much a vague character compared to Prophet. When I get to play as say, Lara Croft I feel more immersed in that game because I can put myself in the place of that character easier simply becuase I'm the same gender.

I hope that makes sense.

OT: Thanks for putting the Podcast up it was cool to be able to listen to it.

I would agree with the fact that people have a right to play the 'sparkle pony' games but they shouldn't be labelled as 'girls games' when I certainly don't enjoy them. The Sims 3 is pushing it for me but I do enjoy the building.
 

Avistew

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My femshep has scars. You can give her some! If you decide not to it seems weird to then complain she doesn't have any. I don't find my femshep attractive at all, presumably in big part because I'm straight, but also because I designed her that way. I dunno, I get a vibe of "I made my character hot, and now I'm complaining that she's hot, because female characters shouldn't have to be!"
Well they don't.
Also male Shepard is hot, what the hell?

I also kind of maybe disagreed with the "If a female character is just a man with boobs, what's the point?" comment. It depends on what was meant there, but what I mean is that I don't think a female character should need to be all about female issues and being stereotypically feminine or, on the other hand, breaking the stereotypes and having everyone point that out, or in short be defined by the fact she's feminine. I think the same character could be either, just flip a coin, and that's fine. Males don't have to be a specific way to be good male characters, they're just good characters and they happen to be males. I think it should be the same for female characters.

I had to pause because it's a heavy subject so I can't really absorb the whole thing at once, so this is just my reaction to the first fifteen minutes or so. I'll probably comment in more length while I have listened to the whole thing.
 

Raithnor

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Jul 26, 2009
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For whatever reason, Bayonetta looks wrong to me. I think it's her legs that just seem so out of proportion with the rest of her body and she wears heels on top of that.

I realize that the majority of female characters are probably as equally physically distorted in their own ways but I don't get the same sense of "wrongness" that I get when I look at Bayonetta.

Here's the weird part: I don't think I'd have a problem with people cosplaying as Bayonetta at all, in fact I'd probably want to take their picture. That's probably because they're an actual person so the proportions are much more realistic.
 

cainx10a

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murphy7801 said:
Hi im bit curious why think he looks like dutch model ? he looks much more provincial to me ?
[img ]http://www.index.hr/images/Mark2S.jpg [/img]
Mark Vanderloo. Personally, I think he looks great, didn't care much for my custom Shepard.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Eleima said:
I do have one thing to say about FemShep though, you *can* give her scars in ME1, even if marketing decided to do away with those (but then again, they did the same to MaleShep, all scars disappeared in ME2; which is a shame, I thought they added distinction to my characters).
Given what happened at the start of ME2...I think it's reasonable to assume there wasn't any scar tissue around.

[Spoilers obviously]
 

Mariena

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cainx10a said:
murphy7801 said:
Hi im bit curious why think he looks like dutch model ? he looks much more provincial to me ?
[img ]http://www.index.hr/images/Mark2S.jpg [/img]
Mark Vanderloo. Personally, I think he looks great, didn't care much for my custom Shepard.
Yeeeeooow.

What a hunk.

And does look a whole lot like default Manshep!