ESO's character creation is not praiseworthy, it's lazy

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CloudAtlas

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I've started to write a lengthy rant about the many failures of Elder Scrolls Online, but threw it away because everything had already been said by before? and because I'm not exactly qualified to comment on the details since I haven't even played ESO myself - I'm just a disappointed potential buyer. However, there's one thing I have rarely seen mentioned, if at all:

ESO's character creation/models is widely praised, but it is not worthy of praise at all. It is lazy.

Sure, there are plenty of options to customize your character in all sorts of ways (up to your buttocks size), which is nice [although not without problems [footnote] Having many sliders for just about every body feature, and thus an infinitely large number of different body meshes, means that armors & clothes have to be stretched and warped, automatically, in order to fit all those different meshes. That tends to give armors a very elastic, neoprene-suit-like look. Armors tend to look less like the somewhat heavy, bulky, rigid pieces of equipment they (often), less like items that are worn, and more like a thick layer of paint applied to the bodies. It doesn't help that even heavy armor visibly expands and retracts with breathing in and out either. And that's exactly how armors often look in ESO too. It often doesn't feel authentic, real, it feels cheap. I would assume that you could mostly avoid this cheap spandex look if you put enough effort into it, but ESO apparently did not.[/footnote], but many other MMOs and RPGs offer that too, even cheap F2P cash grabs like Neverwinter, so it's nothing really exceptional.

The thing that stands out about ESO's character models, however, is how lazy they are. All playable races share the same male & female body. It's literally a human body with a different head slapped on top (and sometimes a tail too) and wrapped in a different texture. You'd think that for example cat people would look somehow feline, more svelte, and have cat-like feet, but nope, in ESO, it's all the same. Khajiit, Orc, human, Argonian - makes no difference. In other MMOs, you get giants and dwarfes, cows and plants, orcs, and all sorts of other weird, unique creatures; in ESO, you only get white humans, black humans, green humans, humans with pointy ears, and humans with cat and lizard heads & tails.
Sure character creation was exactly the same in Skyrim in this regard, but is there some law stating that ESO mustn't improve upon previous Elder Scrolls titles in any way? And, compared to Skyrim, even the heads of the humanoid races look more alike in ESO as well. Less disctinct, more generic, less like Elder Scrolls.

Judging from watching gameplay footage, I couldn't notice much, if any, difference in the animations of the different races either. They all seem to move in the same way. And poorly on top - the animations look pretty clunky in general. So not only does ESO have only one skeleton to animate (at least by the looks of it), no, they're not even putting any effort into animating this single skeleton. ESO's animations look like they belong into much older games.

All in all there's just no real effort put into character models. What does it matter if you can customize your Khajiit in many different ways if you always be a human with a cat head at the end of the day? It's just lazy, disappointing, and not worthy of a game coming out in 2014 asking you to pay 60$ upfront and then 15$ every month.
 

Elfgore

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From what I've played of The Old Republics, it too has little to no difference between races. Maybe a small passive that I've never seen where to use. The voice doesn't change with race, only gender and class. Kinda makes it pointless to have the seven or eight races besides cosmetic reasons.

I can't speak for ESO's character creation screen, but the characters seem to move fine to me. In Angry Joe's review, the mage looked kinda cool while fighting.
 

BloatedGuppy

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I think we need more in-depth reviews from people slamming games they've never played. They're super informative.
 

LostCrusader

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Isn't this pretty much standard practice for MMOs to use the same models for each race? The only exceptions that I can think of are WoW and maybe guild wars.

Elfgore said:
From what I've played of The Old Republics, it too has little to no difference between races. Maybe a small passive that I've never seen where to use. The voice doesn't change with race, only gender and class. Kinda makes it pointless to have the seven or eight races besides cosmetic reasons.

I can't speak for ESO's character creation screen, but the characters seem to move fine to me. In Angry Joe's review, the mage looked kinda cool while fighting.
They do use the same 4 models for all the races, and even those passives that they list for each race are just cosmetic.
 

CloudAtlas

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Elfgore said:
I can't speak for ESO's character creation screen, but the characters seem to move fine to me. In Angry Joe's review, the mage looked kinda cool while fighting.
Did you pay attention when he was specifically talking about the clunky animations too? Not to mention that I couldn't possibly tell which race his character had alone by the way he looks and moves when clad in armor... which was my main point.

BloatedGuppy said:
I think we need more in-depth reviews from people slamming games they've never played. They're super informative.
That's why it's neither a review nor in-depth. I'm merely stating one particular aspect, and one that is in plain sight to everyone who does not choose to close his eyes. I do not need to have played the game myself in order to realise that everyone looks the same. It's obvious.

LostCrusader said:
Isn't this pretty much standard practice for MMOs to use the same models for each race? The only exceptions that I can think of are WoW and maybe guild wars.
Not really. Tera comes to mind too and some other Korean stuff, and LOTR Online, Rift, Neverwinter, Everquest 2, the upcoming Wildstar and Everquest Next, and probably a number more offer more variety as well.

And if everyone's copying WoW anyway, why not copy the good stuff instead of the bad stuff for a change? Even if it requires some more effort?
 

Worgen

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LostCrusader said:
Isn't this pretty much standard practice for MMOs to use the same models for each race? The only exceptions that I can think of are WoW and maybe guild wars.

Elfgore said:
From what I've played of The Old Republics, it too has little to no difference between races. Maybe a small passive that I've never seen where to use. The voice doesn't change with race, only gender and class. Kinda makes it pointless to have the seven or eight races besides cosmetic reasons.

I can't speak for ESO's character creation screen, but the characters seem to move fine to me. In Angry Joe's review, the mage looked kinda cool while fighting.
They do use the same 4 models for all the races, and even those passives that they list for each race are just cosmetic.
Guild Wars 2 definitely uses different models for races, while the Norn Human and Sylvari are all based around the same basic model. The Charr and Asura are certainly unique.
 

Ubiquitous Duck

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Lazy? Yes.

True to the lore? Yes.

I imagine that is the defence they would use for the 'generalised' look of the different playable races. This has been true in the Elder Scrolls games I have played, all very humanoid races, bar perhaps a tail, or different feet or slightly smaller or bigger.

I mean the most different are probably the more animalistic like Khajit or Argonian or Orc, but still, mostly, these are humanoid shaped.

They don't really have races like Tauren or complete alternatives like Geth or droids, or even tiny races like halflings or gnomes. They just aren't apparent in the universe created.

It does make for a more boring approach to character design, granted, but it is also true to how its always been. I can imagine people complaining if they had made up races to diversify the portfolio too, people would moan for them thinking they could 'mess with the lore' etc.
 

CloudAtlas

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Ubiquitous Duck said:
Lazy? Yes.

True to the lore? Yes.

I imagine that is the defence they would use for the 'generalised' look of the different playable races. This has been true in the Elder Scrolls games I have played, all very humanoid races, bar perhaps a tail, or different feet or slightly smaller or bigger.

I mean the most different are probably the more animalistic like Khajit or Argonian or Orc, but still, mostly, these are humanoid shaped.

They don't really have races like Tauren or complete alternatives like Geth or droids, or even tiny races like halflings or gnomes. They just aren't apparent in the universe created.

It does make for a more boring approach to character design, granted, but it is also true to how its always been. I can imagine people complaining if they had made up races to diversify the portfolio too, people would moan for them thinking they could 'mess with the lore' etc.
I'm sure some people would have complained, yes. But people have been criticising/complaining about the human bodies for all races in Skyrim and Oblivion as well (the Khajiit feet seemed to have drawn particular attention, if I recall correctly). I'm not saying they should have introduced entirely new races or anything like that, just make the Khajiit look and move more, well, feline, the Orcs a bit more brutish, the Wood Elves a bit more svelte and nimble, and so on. I don't think that would be untrue to the Elder Scrolls franchise.
Maybe you wouldn't want to go as far as having your cat and lizard people run on all four, although I thought that was a nice touch in Guild Wars 2, but there's a large space inbetween, isn't it.

As it is, with all races looking so similar, virtually indistinguishable even in armor, and having the same/similar animations, and no significant optical distinction added by way of class either, I have the feeling that the visual experience might get bland after a while due to this uniformity.
 

Ubiquitous Duck

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CloudAtlas said:
Ubiquitous Duck said:
Lazy? Yes.

True to the lore? Yes.

I imagine that is the defence they would use for the 'generalised' look of the different playable races. This has been true in the Elder Scrolls games I have played, all very humanoid races, bar perhaps a tail, or different feet or slightly smaller or bigger.

I mean the most different are probably the more animalistic like Khajit or Argonian or Orc, but still, mostly, these are humanoid shaped.

They don't really have races like Tauren or complete alternatives like Geth or droids, or even tiny races like halflings or gnomes. They just aren't apparent in the universe created.

It does make for a more boring approach to character design, granted, but it is also true to how its always been. I can imagine people complaining if they had made up races to diversify the portfolio too, people would moan for them thinking they could 'mess with the lore' etc.
I'm sure some people would have complained, yes. But people have been criticising/complaining about the human bodies for all races in Skyrim and Oblivion as well. I'm not saying they should have introduced entirely new races or anything like that, just make the Khajiit look and move more, well, feline, the Orcs a bit more brutish, the Wood Elves a bit more svelte and nimble, and so on. I don't think that would be untrue to the Elder Scrolls franchise.
Maybe you wouldn't want to go as far as having your cat and lizard people run on all four, although I thought that was a nice touch in Guild Wars 2, but there's a large space inbetween, isn't it. And
As it is, with all races looking so similar, virtually indistinguishable even in armor, and having the same/similar animations, and no significant optical distinction added by way of class, I have the feeling that the visual experience might get bland after a while due to this uniformity.
To that extent you almost wonder why they even put race choice into character creation.

Could've had a different approach to MMOs where it was very heavily story-based targeted towards a particular race.

I know that isn't the Elder Scrolls way, but if you make 'no' difference between the races, I begin to wonder why there is a choice at all.

I thought you were suggesting for a more variety in a different sense, obviously. And that does sound rather boring.

Think they couldn't do an approach like Wildstar did with their races, but some distinguishing would be good - if they truly do all act the same and look the same.
 

BloatedGuppy

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CloudAtlas said:
That's why it's neither a review nor in-depth. I'm merely stating one particular aspect, and one that is in plain sight to everyone who does not choose to close his eyes. I do not need to have played the game myself in order to realise that everyone looks the same. It's obvious.
It's a long, rambling forum post with an objective statement in the title and a lot of sweeping conclusions drawn about the quality of in-game elements, written by someone who hasn't played the game. If you're setting up to write something and one of the first things you do is parachute in a disclaimer that you haven't heard/played/watched/read the thing you're about to write about, it's probably the wise course of action to reconsider. But maybe that's just me.

You're evidently annoyed the game exists, you're clearly irked about the pricing, and you've seen some videos that have fueled your confirmation bias, and now you're here to offer your stirring commentary...stated as undeniable fact, no less...as to the quality of the animations and textures, as well as slam one of the few almost universally praised game elements. It's great stuff, really. Quality insights.

CloudAtlas said:
As it is, with all races looking so similar, virtually indistinguishable even in armor, and having the same/similar animations, and no significant optical distinction added by way of class, I have the feeling that the visual experience might get bland after a while due to this uniformity.
Putting aside that previous Elder Scrolls games going back 20 years have all used a similar "low fantasy" aesthetic, I'm sure they were more concerned with staying true to their license than meeting your personal threshold for "visual blandness".
 

Nazulu

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BloatedGuppy said:
CloudAtlas said:
That's why it's neither a review nor in-depth. I'm merely stating one particular aspect, and one that is in plain sight to everyone who does not choose to close his eyes. I do not need to have played the game myself in order to realise that everyone looks the same. It's obvious.
It's a long, rambling forum post with an objective statement in the title and a lot of sweeping conclusions drawn about the quality of in-game elements, written by someone who hasn't played the game. If you're setting up to write something and one of the first things you do is parachute in a disclaimer that you haven't heard/played/watched/read the thing you're about to write about, it's probably the wise course of action to reconsider. But maybe that's just me.
So you're just dismissing his point because he didn't play it. You know, it's possible to bring up excellent points without having to play a game. He's talking about something you can see with your eye's, something that CAN be seen in video's. Is it true what he said? This is your chance to defend it now, but instead you've decided to write it off. While Cloud was being honest, you responded disrespectfully while also not addressing the topic.

BloatedGuppy said:
You're evidently annoyed the game exists
So what if he's annoyed that the game exists? Everyone's biased one way or another. I've seen you defending the game before, should I assume you're a fan? That you're going to be dismissive of any criticism? The next part makes it seem so.

BloatedGuppy said:
CloudAtlas said:
As it is, with all races looking so similar, virtually indistinguishable even in armor, and having the same/similar animations, and no significant optical distinction added by way of class, I have the feeling that the visual experience might get bland after a while due to this uniformity.
Putting aside that previous Elder Scrolls games going back 20 years have all used a similar "low fantasy" aesthetic, I'm sure they were more concerned with staying true to their license than meeting your personal threshold for "visual blandness".
How the hell is this a defense? He's criticising the bloody game like anyone is allowed to do. I'm sure the developers don't want to hear any criticism at all.
 

Schmeiser

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Just stay away from the game OP, i knew it was gonna be shit since the first day just like every other mmo that tries to fight WOW. Hopefully wildstar will be excellent

If you're not playing it and don't intend to then why bother?
 

BloatedGuppy

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Nazulu said:
So you're just dismissing his point because he didn't play it. You know, it's possible to bring up excellent points without having to play a game. He's talking about something you can see with your eye's, something that CAN be seen in video's. Is it true what he said? This is your chance to defend it now, but instead you've decided to write it off. While Cloud was being honest, you responded disrespectfully while also not addressing the topic.
Yes, I am dismissing his evidently uninformed argument. It's his prerogative to form conclusions on things based on YouTube videos. It's also his prerogative to make screeds about them on public forums. At which point it becomes my prerogative to criticize his hastily leapt-to conclusions. I'm sorry if you feel that critique of someone's argument is "disrespectful". Should I have bought him a corsage first?

Nazulu said:
So what if he's annoyed that the game exists? Everyone's biased one way or another. I've seen you defending the game before, should I assume you're a fan? That you're going to be dismissive of any criticism? The next part makes it seem so.
Actually I spoke pretty frankly about the game, outlining the ways in which it succeeds, and the ways in which it falters. I called it "flawed" and "not for everyone" and specifically suggested that people looking for certain things NOT buy it. If you choose to view that as "biased defense", or color me as a fanboy, you may do so.

Nazulu said:
How the hell is this a defense? He's criticising the bloody game like anyone is allowed to do. I'm sure the developers don't want to hear any criticism at all.
A) I'm pretty sure the developers aren't scouring the Escapist looking for feedback from one guy that their entire animation/texture/character mesh system is substandard, and that their game is "visually bland". What are you imagining here? That they'd stumble across it, throw the brakes on launch, and overhaul the entire game at the cost of millions of dollars, all the while feverishly consulting with CloudAtlas on how an MMO should look and how the Elder Scrolls visual style should be re-imagined?

B) Did I tell him he "wasn't allowed" to criticize the game? Did I silence him? I suggested that offering weighty opinions on things you haven't actually experienced is a bit foolish. That's called "feed back". If people don't want feedback they shouldn't be posting in public spaces.

C) I'm not "defending" anything. That would imply he and I were having a heated debate about the quality of an in-game element in a game he never played. That would be a preposterous waste of time for both of us.

Schmeiser said:
Hopefully wildstar will be excellent.
It's not. It's just as problematic, just in different ways.
 

CloudAtlas

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BloatedGuppy said:
CloudAtlas said:
That's why it's neither a review nor in-depth. I'm merely stating one particular aspect, and one that is in plain sight to everyone who does not choose to close his eyes. I do not need to have played the game myself in order to realise that everyone looks the same. It's obvious.
It's a long, rambling forum post with an objective statement in the title and a lot of sweeping conclusions drawn about the quality of in-game elements, written by someone who hasn't played the game. If you're setting up to write something and one of the first things you do is parachute in a disclaimer that you haven't heard/played/watched/read the thing you're about to write about, it's probably the wise course of action to reconsider. But maybe that's just me.

You're evidently annoyed the game exists, you're clearly irked about the pricing, and you've seen some videos that have fueled your confirmation bias, and now you're here to offer your stirring commentary...stated as undeniable fact, no less...as to the quality of the animations and textures, as well as slam one of the few almost universally praised game elements. It's great stuff, really. Quality insights.
1. Yet you're not denying anything I've said. You know, about all races sharing exactly the same body and most, if not all, not-very-smooth animations, and all of that not having required a huge amount of effort.

2. I am only talking about visuals here. Superficial stuff that you can judge fairly well by just looking at. And which is not only apparent in videos saying negative stuff about ESO either. I am not talking about quest design or combat or anything like that I feel might or might not suit my taste.

3. I'm not annoyed that ESO exists. I am an Elder Scrolls fan since Morrowind and so I believe I have invested enough money and time in the series to have the right to say something about Elder Scrolls. I am totally open to an Elder Scrolls MMO, I'm just disappointed about this Elder Scrolls MMO.
 

BloatedGuppy

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CloudAtlas said:
I am an Elder Scrolls fan since Morrowind and so I believe I have invested enough money and time in the series to have the right to say something about Elder Scrolls. I am totally open to an Elder Scrolls MMO, I'm just disappointed about this Elder Scrolls MMO.
Then I'm certain you're aware that the visual design and mesh for the many humanoid races of Tamriel has ALWAYS been like this, and the game is being faithful to the IP. I'm a bit confused about your outrage.

CloudAtlas said:
Yet you're not denying anything I've said.
How can I "deny" your opinion? Why would I want to debate the quality of in-game elements with someone who has a fully formed conclusion about them despite never seeing them?

Nevertheless, if it makes you happy...I disagree. The game is not "visually bland". There's actually quite a bit of visual distinction between the races, not just in texture work but in their individual racial weapons/armor, the style of their dwellings, etc. The character creation is strong, and the game has some of the better looking character models in MMOs.

The animations are pretty scrotty though. I also suspect the game drops animation frames as a way of dealing with a lot of on-screen individuals, because it seems to vary in quality. This is also an Elder Scrolls staple (ever try playing Skyrim in 3rd person?) but isn't really something the game should get a pass on.
 

RoonMian

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Schmeiser said:
Just stay away from the game OP, i knew it was gonna be shit since the first day just like every other mmo that tries to fight WOW. Hopefully wildstar will be excellent

If you're not playing it and don't intend to then why bother?
Ironically, in my opinion Wildstar feels a lot more like WoW than ESO, except for the setting of course.
 

JayRPG

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The best character creation and customization for an MMO award goes to:

Aion

There were no multiple races per faction, it was just Elyos and Asmodian but you know what? You try finding anyone that looks exactly like you in that game.

Character creation was just the start, with about 26 sliders for your face and a little under 26 for the body, plus 50 odd hair styles, tattoos, markings, jewelry.

Once you get into the game though the customization opens up even more, not only could you reskin gear and weapons to look like other pieces of armor and gear but there were hundreds of joke/useless weapons and pieces of armor that were made specifically for reskinning; Then there were dyes, around 250 different dyes to change the colour of your gear.

There was a guy in my legion who was about 8ft tall, wearing a bright yellow tuxedo and a chefs hat wielding a giant fish as a 2 handed sword - and it was all perfectly good gear thanks to the reskinning.

Everyone looked different despite you all being the same race, and no matter what the position of your sliders were, textures on gear were never out of whack and nothing ever felt out of place.

It was truly impressive character creation and customization.

As you pointed out, ESO's is lazy.
 

JayRPG

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RoonMian said:
Schmeiser said:
Just stay away from the game OP, i knew it was gonna be shit since the first day just like every other mmo that tries to fight WOW. Hopefully wildstar will be excellent

If you're not playing it and don't intend to then why bother?
Ironically, in my opinion Wildstar feels a lot more like WoW than ESO, except for the setting of course.
FYI, it feels like WoW because they are ex vanilla WoW and BC devs who know what they are doing.

They've created the engine from the ground up, unlike most MMOs released after WoW which used pre-existing engines that were never meant for MMOs which restricts what they can do with mechanics.

Wildstar's engine shares similarities with WoW meaning they can pull off hundreds of unique and innovative mechanics, unlike other games, like say swtor and rift that have raids with little-to-no mechanics, none of them challenging and almost always bugged in some way - this is because they have bad graphical engines for an MMO.

Wildstar may feel like WoW but they aren't trying to kill WoW, Carbine are targeting a specific audience for Wildstar, and it is the hardcore player. Dungeons are hard, attunements are long and painful, Raids are exceptionally hard, there isn't an easy mode and a hard mode. 20 and 40 man raids that both have individual loot tables so if you want the best gear you need to raid 40 man, and the list goes on.

Carbine wants the niche audience that thinks WoW died in Wotlk, the players who petitioned for Vanilla only and BC only servers. It's a rather large niche that isn't being filled at the moment because every company and their mothers (including Blizzard) want the casual crowd which is much larger.