Federation vs the Imperium Scenario Challenge

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Okay so the whole Federation vs Imperium debate seems to have hit a snag. That is to say it's become "But...But Star Trek!" and the counter argument "But...but Warhammer 40k!"

Which I did indulge in I'll admit, but I feel we could have a much more entertaining debate without resulting to counter-canon arguments about which early 90s retconned facts haven't been retconned hard enough.

So that's why I thought up this little scenario challenge, in order to give you, yes you, a chance to express how you think a small-scale encounter between the Federation and the Imperium would go.
So the Scenario is this:

A high ranking Official has been captured by the other side, and a black ops rescue raid is to be launched. The Official is being held on a penal world (of which both the Federation and Imperium have plenty) and the raiders must make planetfall, infiltrate the prison complex, rescue the Official and escape. The planet is well guarded, with a medium size Space Station in orbit, patrol craft in system, surface-to-orbit weapons and shields(that do prevent direct teleportation out) and a garrison of guards and equipment.

For the sake of argument we are going to assume each side is in the other's universe, ie an Imperial raiding force in the Star Trek 'verse or a Federation force in the Imperium, but that they have gone undetected. They do have any equipment they might need, like vehicles, weapons, ammo, armor, duck soup, a single small starship.

You're allowed to have 10 operatives from anywhere within the Canon, with a few exceptions. No 10 Captain Kirks or 10 Datas or 10 whatever the fuck Wesley Crusher turned into(seriously, a space native American time traveling shamen?!), no 10 Primarchs or 10 Emperors or 10 Chapter Masters, etc?

So tell me; What Happens?

P.S. Also no fucking time traveling to prevent the Official from being captured. It's a lazy copout.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I don't really think the Imperium supports penal worlds, or more correctly, the person is more likely to be murdered or lobotomized than arrive there.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Penal_World

Sure they do. Where else are you gonna' get Penal Legion Regiments?

 

[Mangod]

For comparison's sake, here's the WH40k- [http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Penal_World] and Star Trek [http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Penal_colony] Wiki's articles on the two settings penal colonies.

I dunno, it feels like the Federation might be a much easier target, if the New Zealand facility is anything to go by.

Edit: Partially ninja'd by the OP.

 

[Frankster]

No need for 10 operatives on the 40k side. A single callidus assassin should be enough to infiltrate then break the official out. The real problem i'd envision is the escape vehicle. Being generous and assuming the warp works in the ST setting, it still leaves a window where the strike cruiser or w/e 40k craft is being used, is vulnerable whilst making its escape run, local star trek craft would quickly be on its position and hammering it with weapons fire.
Tbh maybe 10 assassins killing everyone before hand, including all the personal in space, might be the better solution.


I see the opposite situation for the ST side. Section 51 operatives have some experience with infiltration but the imperiums totalitarian and suspicious nature means there are more obstacles for an infiltrator and a section 51 operative ain't going to be able to solo the defenders like a 40k operative can.
Still let's see thanks to some super clever subterfuge, they reach the cell the prisoner is secured in, now they have to get out with the place on high alert.. And that's a situation i just don't see happening in their favor, too many local guardsmen to deal with, presence of psykers, their only hope is pure stealth and i just don't know of any federation group capable of that kind of sneakiness... When picard tried his hand at infiltration he got captured by the cardassians after all. Heck the fact starfleet had to call in picard and his officers for such a task speaks poorly of their abilities in this scenario, it's why i have to include the maquis along with section 51 because otherwise this is one situation the federation just doesn't have the tools for.

Still if they were able to make it out of the penal colony, their escape craft would be very stealthy and more importantly, able to GTFO before local imperial defenders could respond.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

All very good points, but for the sake of debate I'll take a few opposing viewpoints.

First off while a Calidus is very sneaking and can morph into just about any humanoid shape(I doubt they can pull a Transformers and turn into a Car or Radio) they are still genetically themselves even in a new form. So taking Red-Shirt Bill's form isn't going to help if there are DNA scanners or telepathic guards/counselors.
Likewise computers are much more observant in Trek than 40k. In Trek the Enterprise computer could tell exactly who was missing from the ship and when they left, whereas in 40k a ship's Machine Spirit is little more than personified anger. So its entirely plausible that the second Red-Shirt Bill is killed the station's computer notices and alerts everyone, especially if its a prison. Its equally likely that the computer would be able to tell Bill wasn't Bill but someone pretending to be Bill by bio-scans.

And to then help Trek in the 40k world, the Federation is capable of personal cloaking technology, and extensive facial reconstructive technology. They made Picard and Data into Romulans that one time when Spock took a few too many sick days or whatever. And with the use of portable force fields they could easily block entire corridors, trapping guard roots and dividing the prison up nicely.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

We don't really need another one of these threads. Plus, I don't think this is a very good scenario.

I think part of it is that the attacking team is almost certainly going to be composed of elites, whereas the defending team will almost certainly be composed of mooks. And the Imperium has a very, very large gulf in quality between the two, to the point where I'd say that whoever attacks is likely to succeed.

 

[Frankster]

snip

Hum i didn't consider certain things like portable force fields, even factoring in the presence of psykers (of which i'm assuming there would be at least 2-3 in the installation the scenario takes place, 1 of which is a mandatory astropath for long range communications and would alert the entire planet immediately once the fed team is detected), this can buy the federation team valuable time especially once their cover is blown.
For facial surgery and cloaking tech, i like to think they would be countered by extreme paranoia and psykers/auspex respectively. One advantage of the grimdark nature of the 40k setting when it comes to secure installations such as a penal world you can't just disguise yourself as a high ranking official then walk in and order the grunts to let you through no questions asked, there's commissars aplenty on the lookout for anything odd and grunts are encouraged to be aware of possible heretical behavior. So facial surgery would help, but doubt the fed team could rely on it entirely to get in very far, only to gain initial access to the facility.

For cloaking tech, auspexes/psykers counter it imo.

For the Callidus that's some good points though it makes me wonder..If this is true, then how come shape shifting aliens and brain parasites both managed to infiltrate star fleet command then and even impersonate star fleet officers? Likewise facial reconstruction tech shouldn't work in their own setting (especially if the scenario involves the romulans, along with the cardassians obsidian order and the shapeshifting founders of the dominion those are meant to be the sneakiest and most espionage savvy groups of the ST setting) yet it does..

The only explanation i can come up with at this time to explain this discrepancy (along with numerous points in the ST series where crewmembers do get knocked out/go missing/get killed and there is no instant alert from the onboard computer), is that unlike a machine spirit which actually is autonomous to the point you have vehicles able to fight on after the death of their crew and even develop slight personalities, star trek computers ain't autonomous and some officer would have to ask "computer, where is red shirt bill/what is the status of red shirt bill?" before they get their answer. So the absence of redshirt bill would have to be detected first before someone thinks to ask the computer about him.
Anyways if the callidus can't use her shapeshifting tricks, then the scenario just got a lot more complicated for the 40k side, to the point subtlety might not be an option, just a plain old surgical assault led by powered armored troops (not just space marines though, i'd throw in a few inquisitors for their psychic powers and varied fields of expertise).

 

[FalloutJack]

Question: Can I involve Q, since he loves to mess around with the Federation?

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Question: Can I involve Q, since he loves to mess around with the Federation?

If you can involve Q, the Imperium gets Tzeentch.

Tzeentch, or CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED [http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/004/335/CreedvTzeentch.jpg]

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Question: Can I involve Q, since he loves to mess around with the Federation?

I'm actually not familiar with Q's powers. Or more accurately, how would it work in another universe entirely? Would he even have any powers?
Likewise 40k Psykers. If Trek doesn't have the Warp, how would magic work?

 

[twistedmic]

Question: Can I involve Q, since he loves to mess around with the Federation?

I'm actually not familiar with Q's powers. Or more accurately, how would it work in another universe entirely? Would he even have any powers?
Likewise 40k Psykers. If Trek doesn't have the Warp, how would magic work?

If I remember correctly, Q is practically a god (if he isn't an actual god) with near-omnipotent reality-warping powers. He has teleported multiple people all over the universe (even to parallel and pocket dimensions), has frozen time entirely and can teleport himself anywhere at anytime.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

One would have to assume that the generally optimistic, trusting Starfleet you see in the show wouldn't translate to the personal in charge of guarding a penal facility, at which point things like regular check ins and DNA/facial recognition becomes more scrutinizing. Hell, I'd expect the Federation equivalent of a super-max not to have actual doors, relying on short-range, dedicated transporters to get in and out of the main facility. Basically, I'd expect the Imperial extraction team to have to go in hot, unless they expect someone who thinks all machines have a tiny spirit living inside them to know how to work a transporter terminal.

Then you've got to make it out system somehow, which takes ages longer for the Imperium that's the Federation, you're probably going to need some almost blasphemous, not understood cloaking technology to not screw the pooch. And that assuming that a "cloak" that can fool the Imperium's rudimentary sensors to also be effective against Starfleet scanners.

On the flip side, unless Starfleet is willing to have some Section 31 goon go undercover for months learning the basics of the Imperial thought process, they're also going to have to go in hot. I'm also assuming a dedicated, trained search and rescue team, not an ad-hoc group of Starfleet bridge officers. Next, they'd need to beg, borrow, steal, or buy a cloaking shuttlecraft. Shouldn't be too hard given how that tends to go in the show. Fly in, torpedo the power plant (which should light up like a beacon on Starfleet scanners), transport the VIP out, and be on their cloaking way. Potential foible? The sheer mass of an Imperial prison complex may make finding the VIP to transport out impossible without a booster. So they might use some hard light overlays and other eco to cloak their way through the rudimentary Imperial scanners and boosted phasers set on evaporate to take care of those roving patrols they can't just steer clear off. Vaporize big enough holes in the walls to move around choke points, find the VIP and use their boosted signal to transport out. Once they get underway in the shuttle, there's very little the Imperium could do to stop them, even without the cloak. The Imperium is weak against fast and nimble, and the acceleration rate of the shuttle will outstrip just about anything the Imperium has access to, even assuming the rites for activating whatever chasing patrol,craft has already been completed.

(Mind you, if this were on the show, a stray pice of shrapnel from nearby weapons fire would totally incapacitate the escaping shuttle in some way, leading to extra drama with the third act escape.)

 

[EternallyBored]

Am I going to have to break out the Stan Lee video again? I suppose this one is improved in that you are asking for potential outcomes of the scenario rather than some kind of "who wins?" or "whose better?" scenario.

There are a number of interesting potential outcomes surrounding the premise, on the Imperial end, just getting into the system for a single or small group of common ships would be hard to do as Federation scanning and travel is generally going to be superior. With the 10 person limit, the most interesting scenarios would probably involve the inquisition, as that gives you an excuse to mix and match all types of troops, as well as justifying the use of irreplaceable pre-heresy tech, or authorized use of xenotech (Eldar) to sneak in. An inquisitorial team allows you to mix and match assassins, space marines, sisters of battle, and any type of guardsman you could want, you could even justify a xeno or two in the mix. Psychics would either be useless or invaluable depending on how you want Warp powers to work in Star Trek's universe. A top level psyker whose powers work in the setting would likely be powerful enough to do it on their own, although potentially risking the prisoner as top level psykers are more about breaking space ships in half than they are subtlety, you kind of got to grab some Eldar if you want subtle.

I would keep the team fairly mobile as the Federation likely doesn't have massive penal colonies, and their ground tactics inside a facility would involve lots of shields and teleporters, so terminator armor probably isn't going to help much. Still, I could see a number of combinations pulling it off.

On the Federation side, there is less troop variety, but a number of gamebreaking technologies that would make such a rescue potentially a breeze. Any story involving the Federation is going to need to account for things. For one, stealth tech and easy FTL would make the initial infiltration easy enough to justify slipping in undetected. Teleportation is another one, if there is nothing interdicting the teleporters, then all the Feds have to do is find their target, then they all get transported out without having to actually sneak or fight their way out. How easy or hard it is will likely depend on the Imperial composition, space marines aren't really going to be guarding regular prisoners, so I don't see much stoping a ground team. Or we go with Altnames scenario and just have them scan and transport the prisoner out without ever being seen.

Either side has a good shot at accomplishing their mission, the Imperium has a massive variety of elite troops with specialized skills, abilities, and preserved tech if we take the usual scarcity limits away, whereas the Federation has a number of technologies that the Imperium just has no good defense against, Imperium tech has a weakness to small, fast, and stealthy.

 

[veloper]

Teleportation ruins the entire scenario.

Procedure is just warp to the star system, scan everyone through the walls, teleport a trekkie in and then the trekkie touches the VIP and both get teleported out.

At the very least you'd have to rule out those omniscient scanners.

 

[Thaluikhain]

There was an ep of DS9 (well, a two-parter) in which the moral of the story was that taking any basic precautions against shapeshifting aliens mean the bad guys win so the Federataion decided not to.

So...they always lose? And deservedly? Unless we forget about DS9, which I try to do.

Teleportation ruins the entire scenario.

Procedure is just warp to the star system, scan everyone through the walls, teleport a trekkie in and then the trekkie touches the VIP and both get teleported out.

At the very least you'd have to rule out those omniscient scanners.

You can't do that via shields/jammers or weird alien things that stop that. Those crop up all the time to stop that being the end of every Star Trek episode.

 

[FalloutJack]

Question: Can I involve Q, since he loves to mess around with the Federation?

I'm actually not familiar with Q's powers. Or more accurately, how would it work in another universe entirely? Would he even have any powers?
Likewise 40k Psykers. If Trek doesn't have the Warp, how would magic work?

Of course Trek has a Warp! They factor it between one and nine...


But seriously, Q apparently exists multidimensionally, so as long as it exists...I guess he can function in it. The question is...is he bound by any powers that be in the 40K universe? It seems as though only those on his level can really put a halter on him. He might find the chaos gods to be something of a nuance, but a problem? I wonder...

Basically, Q decides to help the Federation with this dimensional-breaching madness specifically to rub it in their faces.

Question: Can I involve Q, since he loves to mess around with the Federation?

If you can involve Q, the Imperium gets Tzeentch.

Tzeentch, or CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED [http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/004/335/CreedvTzeentch.jpg]

The following dialogue occurs with both of those two.

"Okay, fellas. multi-layered schemes on the table, please. We're going to run this game ourselves, and we're going to have all the fun doing it. We're going to let Picard think he's very cleverly disguised, even though he's NOT, and we're going to have both of you eliminate your competition in one fell swoop in a massive conflict that the Federation will think they're taking advantage of in order to put their rescue strategy together. They're going to get their man back, Tzeentch will become the almighty ruler of chaos in this universe, and Creed? You'll never let anybody live down how brilliant you are in dealing with so much chaos. I'll get bragging rights in MY universe, of course, and we'll put this silly debate the fans concocted behind us, once and for all."

 

[pookie101]

trek side they can cordon areas off with force fields not to mention you have tech like rifles that basically teleport the rounds, im not sure how war hammer marines, etc would go again holographic commandos.. immune to physic effects, immune to weapons.

in a straight up ground fight im pretty sure warhammer marines for instance would do exceedingly well against federation forces.

as for the federation always taking the high moral option they arent opposed to setting up the dominion in the end to bring the romulans into the war

 

[Elijin]

Doesn't the sheer brutality of the 40k universe tip the scales in a dumb way?

By which I mean in detaining a hvt, they'd torture and kill pretty quickly, making extracting a living prisoner troublesome...
And in requiring a hvt, if the rescue proved too difficult, exterminus protocols would be seen as a perfectly valid solution.

So while trek is probably got the technical edge, they just don't operate in a way that results in a good end game.