Feminists, we need to talk about fedoras

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Eamar

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My fellow feminists,

Obviously the whole Reddit/"nice guy"/euphoria/fedora thing isn't particularly new, and I'm not here to talk about that specifically. However, what I have been seeing more of (and not just on the Escapist, or even the internet) is, for lack of a better term "fedora shaming", whereby people are judged or mocked for wearing said headgear, actively discouraged from purchasing or wearing them, or, in the best case scenario, have to qualify and defend their choice of hat.

With that in mind, join me in a little thought experiment:

Imagine some item of women's clothing, let's say, I don't know, the miniskirt, was associated with some pretty unpalatable behaviours. In this scenario there's a stereotype that girls and young women who wear miniskirts are "bitches" who deliberately use their sex appeal to get what they want, are shallow, and bully others who don't match up to their ideas of beauty and popularity.


This isn't just some entirely baseless stereotype, though. In fact, if you search the right corners of the right social networks you will find evidence that such creatures do actually exist. Now, you know as well as I do that not all miniskirt wearers in this theoretical world are like this, and that people had been wearing miniskirts long before this stereotype emerged, but due to their time in those specific parts of the internet, some people can't help but make the mental connection - when someone says "miniskirt", they think "*****."

Now imagine that because of this groups of people (predominantly, but by no means exclusively male) start to transfer the problems they have with the stereotypical women we discussed earlier onto the item of clothing itself. They start to judge everyone who wears a miniskirt purely on the basis of their skirt; they act as if it's physically impossible to wear a miniskirt and not be a "cock-tease *****" or a replica of the girls who bullied them in high school. They start authoritatively telling their friends not to wear miniskirts, because that's not what nice girls do.

Actually sounds quite familiar, right? It's body policing. It completely overlooks all the other reasons why someone might want to wear a miniskirt, and it's totally unfair to make (sometimes incredibly detailed) assumptions about a woman's lifestyle, beliefs and behaviours based on the fact that she's wearing a short skirt. It's ridiculous. And it's not the kind of thing we stand for. In fact, it's exactly the sort of thing we feminists rail against on a daily basis.

... Oh. Right. Think about it.

TL;DR: My belief is this: if you're against shaming women for their choice of clothing, quit shaming men for wearing hats. Do you agree? Or have I completely missed the point somewhere? Discuss!

Peace out xxx

 

Random Argument Man

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For somebody who believes that misandry is a thing, I approve of the idea about stopping the mockery of men wearing fedoras.
 

Vegosiux

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Another well-written thread, Eamar.

The problem I see here is that this entire fedora thing became an easy low-hanging fruit to grab whenever you want to shame someone. It's become a loaded term. "Fedora-wearing" no longer means "a dude who happens to be wearing a fedora", but has the entire stereotype attached to it, too. Which is, I agree, not a good thing.

But apparently, there's now some kind of social consensus that shaming people for their choice of headgear is okay, because just like all black people are criminals, just like all women belong in the kitchen, just like all gays are flamboyant and promiscuous, all men who wear fedoras are clearly self-proclaimed nice guys who think putting enough nice tokens into women will get them laid and must therefore be reminded of this at every opportunity.

Now, of course, taking off your hat to avoid that kind of bigotry is way easier than changing your skin color or gender, but why should you have to take off your hat just so someone else can feel good about themselves?

I'm feeling cheeky and cynical, so I'll also bring up one of the "favorite" arguments I keep running into - people, unless you openly fight against shaming men for wearing fedoras, you're tacitly supporting such discrimination, indeed, that makes you worse than people who actually engage actively in such behavior.

Ahem, rant over, and it falls to every individual to figure out how literally they want to read into my post.

PS: That hat really suits you and looks good on you!
 

Fappy

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I kind of want to know where the whole fedora thing started in the first place. Like, why did this "nice guy but not really" stereotype get linked to fedoras? Seems oddly specific to me. Like, I can see the logic in miniskirts = sluts (despite it obviously being untrue) because a miniskirt is simply more revealing than a normal skirt. What the hell does a fedora have to do with anything? The best I can come up with is that some guys may wear them because it makes them look cooler or smarter. Not sure what that has to do with the nice guy stereotype.

Despite all that, I think most people just don't look good in fedoras in general. Its one of those things that takes a specific kind of person to pull it off. I don't want to tell people what they should and shouldn't wear, but it doesn't mean I won't silently judge you for it :p
 

Ninjamedic

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Eamar said:
TL;DR: My belief is this: if you're against shaming women for their choice of clothing, quit shaming men for wearing hats. Do you agree? Or have I completely missed the point somewhere?
What you've come across is a form of tribalism in action. People acsribe these stigmas and traits to a person/object/group since it makes it easier to put themselves on a high ground. At this point its less about focusing on dealing with the problems and just finding ways to make yourself feel superior. For all the fedora bashing I've seen only two people wear them, one of which was a women, so much for that.
 

Eamar

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Vegosiux said:
Another well-written thread, Eamar... PS: That hat really suits you and looks good on you!
Why thank you :) *takes a bow*

While I obviously wouldn't say fedora hate is on a par with racism or what have you, I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Fappy said:
I kind of want to know where the whole fedora thing started in the first place. Like, why did this "nice guy but not really" stereotype get linked to fedoras? Seems oddly specific to me.
I agree. I'm led to believe that it's one of those things that started with an image on Reddit, in which case we've got a situation where people are being dicks to each other based on a glorified meme. God I hope that's not the case -_-

Despite all that, I think most people just don't look good in fedoras in general. Its one of those things that takes a specific kind of person to pull it off. I don't want to tell people what they should and shouldn't wear, but it doesn't mean I won't silently judge you for it :p
*gulp* I will forever live in fear of the Silent Judgement of Fappy :p

Seriously though, anyone who says they don't so that to some extent is lying.

Ninjamedic said:
What you've come across is a form of tribalism in action. People acsribe these stigmas and traits to a person/object/group since it makes it easier to put themselves on a high ground. At this point its less about focusing on dealing with the problems and just finding ways to make yourself feel superior.
Agreed. I'm just trying to point out the complete hypocrisy of feminists engaging in this behaviour, as if the genders were reversed we'd be seeing a hell of a lot of angry blog posts and probably a pro-fedora/miniskirt/whatever photo campaign involving whiteboards.

For all the fedora bashing I've seen only two people wear them, one of which was a women, so much for that.
Yeah, they're really not as common as you'd be led to believe by the internet hype. That said, I know plenty of people who would like to wear them but don't because of the stuff this thread is about, so there's that.
 

Uhura

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It's a weird thing to fixate on but I have to say that I've never seen trilby/fedora shaming in real life. I've always felt like it's a thing that comes up only in specific online communities (feminists/atheists/mra/reddit etc.). Have other people seen it happen irl? But yeah, it's silly to ascribe all those negative attributes to a pretty arbitrary piece of clothing. People should be able to discuss these things without taking cheap jabs at headwear.
 

JoJo

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I always seen fedora-bashing as a joke more than anything else, albeit a somewhat tired one at this point, I'm surprised that anyone actually takes it seriously. Yeah, a fedora does look a bit silly when worn with a t-shirt and jeans but it isn't exactly a crime against humanity, anyone judging someone on their headwear alone needs to open their mind. Good post Eamar, I may link this in future next time a 'nice guy' thread sticks its head up (I'd give it a week, tops).
 

Eamar

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Uhura said:
JoJo said:
I too thought it was an exclusively online/joke thing until the last few months. However, my own experiences combined with those of various friends have convinced me otherwise. Maybe it's just now starting to cross over into real life, I don't know. Plus a quick google search the other day revealed a whole load of deadly serious feminist blogs on the subject, which is what got me thinking about the idea for this thread.

I'd also say that even if this really was "just" an internet thing, people (including feminists) get really worked up about all sorts of debates that only happen on the internet, so the hypocrisy isn't really lessened.

Good post Eamar, I may link this in future next time a 'nice guy' thread sticks its head up (I'd give it a week).
Cheers JoJo :) Hopefully you won't have cause to link this for a while though (call me an optimist :p )
 

Fappy

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Eamar said:
*gulp* I will forever live in fear of the Silent Judgement of Fappy :p
Nah, I think you make it work. Though, I would say that pinstripes would compliment your hair color better than straight up black :p
 

Uhura

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Eamar said:
I too thought it was an exclusively online/joke thing until the last few months. However, my own experiences combined with those of various friends have convinced me otherwise. Maybe it's just now starting to cross over into real life, I don't know.[snip]

I'd also say that even if this really was "just" an internet thing, people (including feminists) get really worked up about all sorts of debates that only happen on the internet, so the hypocrisy isn't really lessened.
Yeah, don't get me wrong. It's definitely stupid even if it's just an internet thing. I think you're right about it starting to cross into "real life" just now. I guess the concept just seems a bit foreign to me since I've never seen people wear trilbies/fedoras irl and the issue doesn't really come up that much irl/online where I live either. Maybe we are late though, the whole "hating hipsters" fad came here a year or two after it was already a big deal in the US. Or maybe I'm just oblivious.

Eamar said:
Plus a quick google search the other day revealed a whole load of deadly serious feminist blogs on the subject, which is what got me thinking about the idea for this thread.
Jesus no. I don't want to know more about this. I'm quitting internet.
 

Colour Scientist

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Fappy said:
Nah, I think you make it work. Though, I would say that pinstripes would compliment your hair color better than straight up black :p
Pinstripes?
Fappy, no.
Don't make me call the fashion police because I will!

Do not take this advice, unless Bugsy Malone is the look you're going for. :p
 

Erttheking

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No argument from me, I don't even get the whole fedora criticism anyway. Though I prefer my scally cap to a fedora, but you pull it off. Thumbs up.
 

Nickolai77

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Fappy said:
I kind of want to know where the whole fedora thing started in the first place. Like, why did this "nice guy but not really" stereotype get linked to fedoras? Seems oddly specific to me. Like, I can see the logic in miniskirts = sluts (despite it obviously being untrue) because a miniskirt is simply more revealing than a normal skirt. What the hell does a fedora have to do with anything? The best I can come up with is that some guys may wear them because it makes them look cooler or smarter. Not sure what that has to do with the nice guy stereotype.

Despite all that, I think most people just don't look good in fedoras in general. Its one of those things that takes a specific kind of person to pull it off. I don't want to tell people what they should and shouldn't wear, but it doesn't mean I won't silently judge you for it :p
Fedora's are a more noticeable part of how nerd's stereotypically dress. You could also add trench coats, wearing heavy metal t-shirts or wolf/fantasy themed shirts, boots, having long or unkept hair and growing facial hair in some shape or form. Fedora's are a distinctive "marker" off this stereotype, perhaps because as you say not everyone suits but that doesn't stop socially awkward nerds from attempting to wear them.


On topic: I largely agree with the OP, but to play the devil's advocate here I think some feminists could insinuate that because society is still largely patriarchal, "slut shaming" by calling out women for wearing mini-skirts takes precedence over "nice guy shaming" or "fedora shaming". Mini-skirts relate to major social problems with how women have been sexually objectified over the centuries and this hinders their advancement towards equality. "Nice guy Fedora shaming" here, on the other hand, is actually related calling out latent misogyny in certain elements of male "nerd culture" and therefore less of a problem- some could even think it was a good thing, although I think most would recognise that judging someone purely by an item of clothing is wrong.


In my view, feminism, like many all-encompassing philosophies, is a theoretical lens through which one can interpret the world. It reveals things you may not have noticed before whilst obscuring other details, such as what the OP has drawn our attention to. For this reason, it's always worth taking those metaphorical lenses off once in a while or at least re-focusing them, because otherwise your visions going to become permanently warped.
 

Fappy

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Colour Scientist said:
Fappy said:
Nah, I think you make it work. Though, I would say that pinstripes would compliment your hair color better than straight up black :p
Pinstripes?
Fappy, no.
Don't make me call the fashion police because I will!

Do not take this advice, unless Bugsy Malone is the look you're going for. :p
Come on, tacky can be fun!

Oh wait, you're no fun these days, that's right. You're in league with Grumpstar, after all :p
 

Colour Scientist

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Fappy said:
Colour Scientist said:
Fappy said:
Nah, I think you make it work. Though, I would say that pinstripes would compliment your hair color better than straight up black :p
Pinstripes?
Fappy, no.
Don't make me call the fashion police because I will!

Do not take this advice, unless Bugsy Malone is the look you're going for. :p
Come on, tacky can be fun!

Oh wait, you're no fun these days, that's right. You're in league with Grumpstar, after all :p
There's good tacky and there's bad tacky, then there's pinstripe fedoras.

There's no need to get all personal, it's not my fault you make poor fashion choices. XD
 

Fappy

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Colour Scientist said:
Fappy said:
Colour Scientist said:
Fappy said:
Nah, I think you make it work. Though, I would say that pinstripes would compliment your hair color better than straight up black :p
Pinstripes?
Fappy, no.
Don't make me call the fashion police because I will!

Do not take this advice, unless Bugsy Malone is the look you're going for. :p
Come on, tacky can be fun!

Oh wait, you're no fun these days, that's right. You're in league with Grumpstar, after all :p
There's good tacky and there's bad tacky, then there's pinstripe fedoras.

There's no need to get all personal, it's not my fault you make poor fashion choices. XD
I never said I'd wear it! You kidding me!? Fedoras would look retarded on me!
 

AgedGrunt

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Surely then we're just as willing to rail against other "shaming" in our lexicon, too: Redneck, neckbeard, pleb, basement-dweller or the ever popular guy-who-doesn't-get laid (which I've seen become more increasingly used by gay women to insult men, claiming they get more pussy than they do).

But to argue that would actually agree with the premise that the hat-hate is about "body policing". It is shaming to point out when you look like a fool. Yes, you can wear whatever you want, but don't expect everyone to think you're well put-together, that defies the very ethos of fashion; it's entirely about taste and it's very easy to lack it.

And let's not pretend like a ton of people who wear "fedoras" (or what they think are fedoras) aren't just infatuated by the appeal of it and want some of that charm and elegance to rub off on them, regardless of whatever the hell they wear on their bodies. If you wear sandals with a business suit you deserve to be mocked just as much as the dope with a trilby and a polo.

Quit making up social battles when people need to learn to deal with criticism.

Edit: And just to make it clear on the "feminism", girls if you see a guy wearing haute couture from any period and the guy just wears the hat with his jeans and designer shirt, by all means call him out on it. Tell him to complete the look. If you want the fedora, get a suit to go with it. Tailored properly you will look way better anyway.
 

MatsVS

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I disagree.

There's a historical context to consider here. Slut-shaming has a very real, very concrete and sad precedent. Shaming women for taking some measure of pride in their sexuality has been a weapon used by troglodytes since forever, and is in many ways tied directly to rape-culture.

Fedora-shaming, on the other hand, is in no ways tied to men's sexuality, and even if it was, the historical context would be different. The shaming would be an act reclaiming, not oppressing. In reality, tho, the fedora, an entirely non-practical garment, unlike the mini-skirt, is derided for its symbolical value and the traditions it represents, not its ties to men's sexuality.

Also, it makes you look like a twat-nugget.


EDIT: Aaaaaand I just saw the picture of you with a fedora. Haha sorryyyyy, you obviously in no way look like a twat-nugget, you look quite lovely. My point was entirely directed at the dudes, promise. :p