Gender and Homophobia

[Hobo Joe]

Essentially, this thread is to address one question I have but if it takes off I can see it spiralling into related discussions about the topic. Anyway, it seems to me, that in terms of being homophobic, people have a tendency to ignore the opposite sex' homosexuals and focus on those in their own gender. I.e. Men seem to pick on gay guys most and women lesbians.

Anyone else experienced this? Agree/disagree.

NB: I'm not condoning such behaviour in any way. Prejudice makes pandas cry.

 

[trollnystan]

Hmm I suppose. A lot of the men who think gay men are disgusting probably enjoy watching lipstick lesbians making out. I've never actually met a vocal, upfront homophobe face-to-face - at least not one over the age of 15 - so I don't have much experience in the matter.

 

[Sightless Wisdom]

Round these parts people aren't too homophobic, other than the usual all around idiots of course. So I can't say too much but the obvious answer would be that you're probably right. Reason being of course the opposite sexes are attracted to each other. I mean, I like women because I'm a straight male, seeing to women together is mathematically twice as attractive. I would guess the same goes either way for most people, but this is obviously for those people that don't have some moral issue with homosexuality. It would of course be easier to have a problem with homosexuality if you were observing it in a fashion that was not attractive to you.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I've heard women laugh at gays for being effeminate whereas lesbians are generally treated indifferently.

There's a grain of truth there, but it only goes so far.

Lesbians are tolerable as long as they're reasonably compliant lipstick magazine lesbians. I.e. they're lesbians who are intelligible to men as 'sexy', and who do not openly reject men either by acting in ways men don't find attractive or by being deeply resistant to male sexuality or, for example, having any problem with men drooling over them.

Butch women or masculine women or women who dress in male clothes are just as badly treated and just as associated with lesbianism as effeminate men are with male homosexuality.

Also, when it emerges that lesbians actually don't like male sexuality, that often they don't like being watched or drooled over or forced to dress and act in ways which appeal to men, then the reaction can be pretty hostile.

OT: This is kind of a general mish-mash of contemporary psychoanalysis. But it's just a theory.

In order to become heterosexual adults, people have to shut out a range of experiences which don't conform to that model. I mean relatively minor experiences, childhood fantasies, weird dreams, things we all have but probably don't remember. People get disgusted by homosexuality because it challenges that repression, it opens the possibility for those repressed experiences to emerge, and that creates a fear (hence, phobia) around the integrity of that heterosexual identity.

This isn't to say that homophobes are all closet gays. But homophobia can be read as a neurosis. It's people failing to adequately deal with their own past experiences.

Thus, it makes sense that the closer the object conforms to ourselves, the more fear is evoked. A man watching two women kiss can choose not to involve himself in their desire because they are conceptually different, they represent an other to the male self. To see two men kiss is far more painful, because it's easier for that man to see himself as substitutable for the men involved, and thus the percieved threat and the percieved attack is stronger.

I don't think it applies to everyone and I'm not entirely convinced by psychoanalysis as a whole. But it actually explains a lot of experiences better than most alternatives.

 

[Hipsy_Gypsy]

It's interesting about lesbians actually. From attending an all female school my entire adolescent, one soon discovers how, erm, "lesbian" they all get on but actually being straight. The once someone turns round and says that they are, indeed, an actual lesbian, all she'd get would be, "Eugh!"s and "That's sick" etc.
On a general note, however, females are just bitchy as anything and would really just nit pick on someone, ***** about them just so they have something, or rather, someone, to talk about because they realise how uneventful their own lives are, y'know, spending every hour of every day snooping on facebook in order to find, but the site does that for you, anything on people to make their conversation interesting.

*Ahem* That was... lengthy, lol. Hah, see what I mean though? Anyhow, I don't think lesbians have it easy as such although I suppose I do see why that is to a certain extent. Gay men typically regarded to be rather feminine whereas generally, men typically should be (typically being a key word here) brash, masculine, macho, whatever, hopefully that makes even a bit of sense, lol. Eh, just ignore this middle paragraph otherwise!

Heh, it's ironic in a way as well how you mention that one gender would give more grief towards their own members who are gay because of which, rather than towards the other. Ironic because they usually find homosexuality in the other gender as "hot" is what I and quite a few people have noticed.

x

 

[Sariteiya]

For some odd reason I've met a lot of men who don't seem to grasp the idea of lesbians. They say lesbian, but they mean Bi, saying things like, "I'd love to meet some lesbians, they're so hot!". I think there's something of an assumption that lesbians are actually kinky sex maniacs that will sleep with anyone for kicks, which in itself is a huge prejudice.

That being said, I haven't met a ton of girls who hated lesbians specifically. They either hate all gay people, or it's a non issue.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I've heard women laugh at gays for being effeminate whereas lesbians are generally treated indifferently.

There's a grain of truth there, but it only goes so far.

Lesbians are tolerable as long as they're reasonably compliant lipstick magazine lesbians. I.e. they're lesbians who are intelligible to men as 'sexy', and who do not openly reject men either by acting in ways men don't find attractive or by being deeply resistant to male sexuality or, for example, having any problem with men drooling over them.

Butch women or masculine women or women who dress in male clothes are just as badly treated and just as associated with lesbianism as effeminate men are with male homosexuality.

Also, when it emerges that lesbians actually don't like male sexuality, that often they don't like being watched or drooled over or forced to dress and act in ways which appeal to men, then the reaction can be pretty hostile.

I'd agree with that. Well...it only really applies to your stereotypical intolerant moron, though. Surprisingly large numbers of otherwise intelligent people can harbour deep rooted prejudices, and they don't always have to fit the usual moulds.

 

[Mischa87]

I've never seen a woman pick on a lesbian. Honestly, when I read this thread title, I thought it was going to be about how the percentage of women who are homophobic is far less than how many men are homophobic.

On a semi-related note, homophobia, and transphobia can actually be attributed to sexism. When a male-bodied person is with other male-bodied people in the intimate sense, it appears they are taking a more "feminine" role, they're giving up power, to homophobes, this is wrong, and bad. When a female-bodied person is with other female-bodied people, they're seen as taking a more "masculine" role, and grasping for power, which is seen as an okay/good thing. This is part of why lesbians generally get less flak.

Male-to-female transsexuals are seen as taking a more feminine role (obviously) and are seen as giving up power, this is bad in the mind of the trans/homophobe, while like the example in the last paragraph, female-to-male transsexuals are seen as taking the obvious route towards masculinity, grasping for power, which is all good in most trans/homophobic minds. Which is why transmen (Female to male transsexuals) get far less hate directed at them than transwomen (male to female transsexuals)

As outlined above, the creation of these trans/homohobic attitudes stem from sexism, in that men, and masculinity is superior, which is generally a male-view, which is why you see it far less in women.

 

[CorinthianRed]

I never noticed lesbians having that problem. (not saying it doesn't occur)
But I've never witnessed it. Gay dudes however I see getting alot'a hate.
And it bugs me cause I'm straight, and some of my closest friends are gay.
I'm also gonna go out on a limb and quote said 'homopal',

"Straight men shouldn't be afraid of gays, chances are we're not interested in you, and we're not interested in the girls you like. So it's like we're trying to get out of the way of you and your ladyseeking missile, really."

 

[SckizoBoy]

Seeing that I currently live in Brighton... good luck trying to find a homophobe around here.

Anyway, from experience, homosexual people that I know get flak in equal measure regardless of gender. Derision for the guys, harassment for the girls. Thankfully, not that many are that douchey that I've encountered, so I can't really say about lesbians getting as much crap from women as gays from men.

 

[Innegativeion]

I don't know from firsthand evidence. I've never been homophobic, and neither have I ever known one personally.

However, I assume most male homophobes dislike m+m gays, and ignore f+f gays because, as straight guys, they like lesbians. According to them, gay is evil... unless they can get off on it.

You see I think this, because homophobes are the kind of people who are ignorant enough to be complete ridiculous hypocrites.

 

[Terminal Blue]

On a semi-related note, homophobia, and transphobia can actually be attributed to sexism. When a male-bodied person is with other male-bodied people in the intimate sense, it appears they are taking a more "feminine" role, they're giving up power, to homophobes, this is wrong, and bad. When a female-bodied person is with other female-bodied people, they're seen as taking a more "masculine" role, and grasping for power, which is seen as an okay/good thing. This is part of why lesbians generally get less flak

This reminds me of a fairly common feminist theory theory.

Men (as well as women) tend to have an intense anxiety and self-consciousness about their bodies. Women are well documented in this regard and generally have no problem expressing these emotions, but for men it is even harder because there's no language which can express this self-loathing. Men are taught that their bodies are not important, and that to focus on them as aesthetic objects is sissy and wrong.

Thus, because men have no socially sanctioned outlet for their body anxieties, they project those anxieties onto those who desire male bodies. Desiring a male body becomes a perversion because men are incapable of imagining their bodies as being attractive to anyone, and find it unbearable for their physical appearance to be bought into question. Men can't express hatred for themselves, so that hatred is projected onto other people - they're wrong, they're perverse, how can they do that?

With heterosexual women it's just a low level antagonism because we generally understand (normal) women as lacking the same physical desire. But men cannot be seen as lacking physical desire, and to desire male bodies disgusts a lot of men because they find those bodies, their bodies, disgusting.

I'm not entirely convinced by that, but when I think of specific individuals in my experience it does make a degree of sense. Also, why is it socially that male bodies as sexual objects are so absent from popular culture, and so provocative when they appear? It's worth thinking about, anyway..

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Essentially, this thread is to address one question I have but if it takes off I can see it spiralling into related discussions about the topic. Anyway, it seems to me, that in terms of being homophobic, people have a tendency to ignore the opposite sex' homosexuals and focus on those in their own gender. I.e. Men seem to pick on gay guys most and women lesbians.

Anyone else experienced this? Agree/disagree.

NB: I'm not condoning such behaviour in any way. Prejudice makes pandas cry.

Dammit, my eyes are just a little sweaty today!

I can only give you male perspective. It's observably true from my experience.

I want to add that I think that's inevitable, I think that's the animal that we are. Someone decided, someday, that any instinctive bias or prejudice is completely unacceptable...and now we have to either feel bad about ourselves for every little thing, or live in complete denial of that part of ourselves.

I want to qualify, because there are so many self-appointed moral-guardians around, that I don't condone harassment/bullying/acting on prejudices in any way. I just believe that so much of the "bad" that people insist shouldn't exist, is down to our neurotic animal nature, and not something we pick.

 

[Tonythion]

I've actually seen lesbians and just people who were thought to be lesbians glared at and made fun of. In middle school the girls would glare at the tom boys in the locker room because they thought they were being checked out. Or boyfriends would tell girls to leave their women alone.

I know this because I had a girl friend in middle school who was not at all a lesbian (She was the biggest princess I knew--she just happened to have short hair) and she would be glared and jeered at until one day she yelled out "You fat pieces of sh*t, if I liked woman you'd be safe because there is no way in hell I would like your fat stinky ugly ass!" Then she turned to the boys "And you guys, you're just jealous because if I were a lesbian I'd get more pus*y than you!" Then she stomped away.

But yeah that was just one incident if might have just been because we were a ghetto school so there where a lot of ignorant people going there.

I do agree--men tend to love the idea of two hot women making out and maybe being able to squeeze into a threesome

While women like the idea of a man who they can be friends with and not have the males chase after them.

Men think all gay men are after them and women think the same.

WHO THEY REALLY SHOULD BE AFRAID OF ARE THE BISEXUALS--WE LIKE EVERYONE--NO ONE IS SAFE

God I hate it when people think bisexuals will have sex with anyone OR anything.

 

[DementedSheep]

Well allot of men are very uncomfortable with gay men and not lesbians but not many woman have issues with lesbians either. I know one woman who doesn?t like gay men but is fine with lesbians (something about "lack of penetration")and a few who take issue with both but none who really hate lesbians but not gay men. I may be off, this is just on my experience but less woman seem to be uncomfortable with homosexuality than men.

 

[LordOmnit]

For some odd reason I've met a lot of men who don't seem to grasp the idea of lesbians. They say lesbian, but they mean Bi, saying things like, "I'd love to meet some lesbians, they're so hot!". I think there's something of an assumption that lesbians are actually kinky sex maniacs that will sleep with anyone for kicks, which in itself is a huge prejudice.

That being said, I haven't met a ton of girls who hated lesbians specifically. They either hate all gay people, or it's a non issue.

Those types tend to be casting this [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnythingThatMoves] delusion on themselves.

EDIT: Oops, looks like I was getting my tropes mixed up, fixed it.

That said, I definitely feel more derision is felt towards male homosexuals than female homosexuals, but that could be because I am a man and thus am not allowed into the mindscape of women. Not that I like being privy to the mindscape of my countrymen (being American) necessarily.
My personal feelings on the matter are be as whatever-sexual as you want, but I will not be changing my mind from hetero. Not that it's ever been a problem for me.

 

[Mallefunction]

Hmm I suppose. A lot of the men who think gay men are disgusting probably enjoy watching lipstick lesbians making out. I've never actually met a vocal, upfront homophobe face-to-face - at least not one over the age of 15 - so I don't have much experience in the matter.

That's been my experience too. Lesbians are fetisized while gay men are just "EW GROSS, MAN! I DON' WANNA SEE DUDES MAKE OUT!"

I've rarely met someone who bashes lesbians, even other women. Being a woman myself, I grew up a tomboy and my parents thought I was gonna be one (especially because my aunt is a total bull dyke) but even then, they always treated me with love and respect.

 

[PatSilverFox]

I don't agree with OP.
Gays are just bashed more than lesbians, and woman sympathize with gays, although men don't care much about lesbians.
That's it.

 

[Indeterminacy]

I've never seen a woman pick on a lesbian. Honestly, when I read this thread title, I thought it was going to be about how the percentage of women who are homophobic is far less than how many men are homophobic.

On a semi-related note, homophobia, and transphobia can actually be attributed to sexism. When a male-bodied person is with other male-bodied people in the intimate sense, it appears they are taking a more "feminine" role, they're giving up power, to homophobes, this is wrong, and bad. When a female-bodied person is with other female-bodied people, they're seen as taking a more "masculine" role, and grasping for power, which is seen as an okay/good thing. This is part of why lesbians generally get less flak.

Male-to-female transsexuals are seen as taking a more feminine role (obviously) and are seen as giving up power, this is bad in the mind of the trans/homophobe, while like the example in the last paragraph, female-to-male transsexuals are seen as taking the obvious route towards masculinity, grasping for power, which is all good in most trans/homophobic minds. Which is why transmen (Female to male transsexuals) get far less hate directed at them than transwomen (male to female transsexuals)

As outlined above, the creation of these trans/homohobic attitudes stem from sexism, in that men, and masculinity is superior, which is generally a male-view, which is why you see it far less in women.

This is an interesting proposal, but I don't think it completely explains attitudes towards transsexualism. For instance, feminists can also be fiercely opposed to male-to-female transsexual transition. Have you ever read some of Germaine Greer on this stuff? What she sees in transsexualism is male encroachment on female identity - the idea is that the presumption that physical and chemical self-alteration is all that is required to be "just as good at being a woman" is quite a hostile act in and of itself.

Whether her view stands up isn't that important to the thought that the supposed superiority of one's own gender doesn't mean transsexualism one way will be accepted while the other rejected. You might simply reject both the deserters and the turncoats.