Guns & 'Realistic' Shooters

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Vampire cat

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Apr 21, 2010
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I'm sure this has been done plenty of times before, but so has most of the topics on The Escapist. Always nice with a fresh discussion now and then, me thinks. This thought was implanted in my brain after a post by BENZOOKA, and I feel I can't rest easily tonight if I don't get it out of my system!

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How much damage guns do in games vary a lot. A LOT. But in recent times, pretty much all FPS's claim they are realistic, something that tends to match poorly with the weapon damage. I'm sure I'm not alone about thinking about these things, but I am a self-proclaimed gun-nut and I do so every time I get into a new FPS, which is a bit too much for my sanity.

First of all, the BENZOOKA issue, pistols. Pistols in games tend to be very weak. Some games will require you to hit your enemy with about 80% of your magazine, and when the average magazine is 13 rounds, that's a bit too much in my opinion. Even for gameplay purposes, 3-4 should be plenty. Some seem to think it would be problematic because deaths would be too quick, but a very easy way to fix that is by making accuracy more realistic too. It's indeed a fine balance, but insead of lowering damage to compensate I feel the developers should rather put some more effort into the ballistics physics of their games.



Conventional rifles in games are at times quite well balanced, meaning 3-6 rounds to kill. Obviously head shots and legs will have varying results, I'm talking torso here. Still, you get some examples where you'll literally have to empty half a clip to kill your enemy, where 90% of those are hits (again accuracy is too high). In this category there also seems to be an assumption that (I'm not going to go with any specific names, so it's easy for everyone to understand) an AK74 of the standard long configuration should be more powerful than the short AK74 configuration. Though there would be a slight power drop due to the shorter barrel, this is often over-done and the real difference should be in accuracy. I don't much agree when my short AK74 is confined to an SMG role due to this.



Sniper rifles are some times a source of annoyance for me too. A few games will end up having them so powerful a shot in the leg will instantly kill you, others will require you to fire 3-5 rounds at an enemy before they die. For a heavy caliber bolt action rifle, I believe the preferred is a 1-shot-kill when hitting the torso. I can understand when a semi-automatic rifle has a 2-3-shot-kill in the torso, but not more. Luckily games seem to get these quite well, but seeing as you'll occasionally have quite wide differences between the effective semi-automatic rifles and the fully automatic assault rifles in power, the fully automatic rifle will lack too much in both range, accuracy and stopping power.

Well, uh that's basically what I've got for this one. Discussion thanks ^^.
 

Elamdri

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Nov 19, 2009
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The answer is simple. Sometimes reality is not fun. Hell, if you think about it, the most realistic first person shooter would be one where once you die, your gamertag is permanently locked from playing the game. Certainly would be "Realistic" but not fun.

Same goes for things like 1-shot sniper kills

I mean, hell if you think about it, there are MAJOR arteries that flow through the arms and legs, getting shot there is NOT a minor injury, despite what Hollywood wants you to believe. But it wouldn't be terribly fun to die in a game from being shot in the femoral artery.

Also, it wouldn't be terribly fun to play a game where getting shot in an arm or leg inhibits your ability to walk or use weapons either, but that's realistic.

Often, if it doesn't boil down to "Realism =/= Fun" then it's about balancing. Pistols do less damage because of lower recoil. You keep talking about ballistic physics vs. damage, and it think the answer is that it's a lot easier to code damage than it is ballistic physics.
 

Radeonx

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Apr 26, 2009
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You do realize that a shot in the leg is one of the most dangerous bullet wounds, right? A giant artery in your thigh will make any shot that grazes it a very possible mortal wound.

Second, no, because that would take away the fun factor. Why does it have to be real? Why can't it be fun? That game style heavily promotes camping, too.
 

Wistfane

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So what exatly are we discussing here? You just stated the obvious mechnics of every COD and its clones from here to eternity. Seems liek nothing to discuss here.
 

SilentCom

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Mar 14, 2011
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Elamdri said:
But it wouldn't be terribly fun to die in a game from being shot in the femoral artery.
You keep talking about ballistic physics vs. damage, and it think the answer is that it's a lot easier to code damage than it is ballistic physics.
I think it could be sort of fun if there were some type of arterial damage, it's just that not very many game developers have tried it in fps. It could be done as a damage over time or a different kill animation or something. Of course this could get quite gory with blood squirting out and stuff XD

As far as ballistic physics, games like BFBC2 sort of implemented this with bullet drop and velocity. This makes it somewhat of a challenge when playing a sniper, but every kill is satisfying.

I think realism in games is sort of based on player preference. Some people like realistic shooters and others don't.
 

Theron Julius

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Nov 30, 2009
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I think the biggest issue is that game developers think that they can get away giving different damage values to the same type of bullet.

Here's a perfect example:

http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/2/20/M6d-pistol.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/1/1d/M6C_Magnum_Sidearm.jpg

If you've played Halo 1 and 2 you'll see quite quickly that these guns do completely different amounts of damage, despite firing the same round and having around the same barrel length.

It's maddening that game developers don't get this. All they need to do is say that they're using a different bullet caliber. It's really easy.
 

dyre

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I think "immersive" is a more important adjective to attach to a game than "realistic." Because realism sucks

It's nice when things are realistic enough to make you feel like you're right in the middle of the battle, but not too realistic to actually detract from the immersion. Things like dying from a leg shot, or making full auto as wildly inaccurate as it is in real life, may be realistic, but they also hold the average gamer back from having fun

Also, it's called a magazine, not a clip
/nitpick
 

SilentCom

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Theron Julius said:
I think the biggest issue is that game developers think that they can get away giving different damage values to the same type of bullet.

Here's a perfect example:

http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/2/20/M6d-pistol.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/1/1d/M6C_Magnum_Sidearm.jpg

If you've played Halo 1 and 2 you'll see quite quickly that these guns do completely different amounts of damage, despite firing the same round and having around the same barrel length.

It's maddening that game developers don't get this. All they need to do is say that they're using a different bullet caliber. It's really easy.
I know what you mean. My brother thinks that the firepower of the gun is based on the gun and not the bullet. What little knowledge he has about firearms comes from Counter-Strike...
 

MiracleOfSound

Fight like a Krogan
Jan 3, 2009
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I just think it's important that a game balances damage you do against damage the enemy does. Realism be damned, fun is had when things feel fair.
 

dyre

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Theron Julius said:
I think the biggest issue is that game developers think that they can get away giving different damage values to the same type of bullet.

Here's a perfect example:

http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/2/20/M6d-pistol.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/1/1d/M6C_Magnum_Sidearm.jpg

If you've played Halo 1 and 2 you'll see quite quickly that these guns do completely different amounts of damage, despite firing the same round and having around the same barrel length.

It's maddening that game developers don't get this. All they need to do is say that they're using a different bullet caliber. It's really easy.
I don't think the Halo series claims that it's a realistic shooter though :p
(bad grammar, I know, but I can't think of any non-wordy way to say it, so w/e)
 

Jinnwarior

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Feb 24, 2011
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something realistic that many forget to take into consideration is that unless your heart or brain ceases to function, you can still fight back. this is why the stopping power VS. penetration debate is so large. i remember there was a shootout between FBI and armed gunmen, with the gunmen wearing armored suits and the FBI using pistols. the gunmen took something around 50~ bullets, and were still shooting at and killing the officers.
 

MetallicaRulez0

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Aug 27, 2008
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Reality stinks in video games. If things were realistic, every weapon would be a 1-shot to the head. The Barrett .50 Cal would be a 1-shot to the little toe. Rocket Launchers would be WILDLY overpowered (not that they aren't overpowered in most shooters, but even more-so).

I'd much rather play a balanced game than a realistic game.
 

Vampire cat

Apocalypse Meow
Apr 21, 2010
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I see from the comments that I haven't made myself clear enough. I'm not saying that ALL games should have realistic ballistics, I'm saying that games claiming to be realistic and that focuses a lot ON the weapons should... And I DO realize that it's much quicker to just adjust the damage a little and move on, but I really think a game that seeks to do weapons well should put some effort into their ballistics system. It CAN be done extremely well, as some games will show.

It's also worth mentioning that I recognize the need for a game to have "vitals". Some parts of an enemy needs to be more vulnerable than others, some parts need to be less. The head/torso/arm/leg split is a simple and effective way to add some more factors to the firing procedure, and I greatly support it despite it not being realistic. I'd also enjoy seeing a game that actually does it perfectly realistic just for the spectacle, but I'm not completely insane I do see the need for good game-play and balance versus realism. I'm trying to present viable ways of making it more realistic while keeping it balanced and enjoyable.

Of course this wouldn't be great for everyone, a lot of people enjoy the games just how they are or would want even less realistic ballistics, but this is my wish for how it should be, and I'm sure some people agree with me.

dyre said:
I don't think the Halo series claims that it's a realistic shooter though :p
(bad grammar, I know, but I can't think of any non-wordy way to say it, so w/e)
This is a KEY in what I'm talking about.

I TOTALLY get all you guys that don't WANT to play a realistic shooter. I too enjoy a good arcade style shooter now and then, and I don't need a game to be highly realistic to play it. I just don't like when I for example buy a game due to it proudly proclaiming how highly realistic it is, and then get what I'm talking about in my post!

I guess I should have been more specific, but that should hopefully clear it up somewhat...

Theron Julius said:
It's maddening that game developers don't get this. All they need to do is say that they're using a different bullet caliber. It's really easy.
I know we may be a bit lone, the two of us, in thinking this. And it's true that HALO doesn't really claim to be a realistic shooter. Anyway, I would expect my shooter-developer to have at least some basic ballistics knowledge, and that he implement this in the game. It DOESN'T need to be perfect, but it would be nice if it "felt right" for those of us that are really into guns!

dyre said:
Also, it's called a magazine, not a clip
/nitpick
Do you really want to get into the debate about circumstance, slang and variations? XD

Wistfane said:
So what exatly are we discussing here? You just stated the obvious mechnics of every COD and its clones from here to eternity. Seems liek nothing to discuss here.
If you'd only use your fantasy a little bit I'm sure you could see it... But then again this discussion is for people that are interested, maybe you are not.
 

dyre

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Mar 30, 2011
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but realism is a good selling point, because people mix it up with immersion :p

I guess at the very least they're more realistic than shooters that blatantly don't care about realism

From what I hear, the ARMA series does deliver on the realism stuff, so if you're interested in actual realism, you might want to check it out
 

Blank Kold

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Aug 24, 2010
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People need to stop underestimating bullets. Those fuckers are scary as hell. If you get shot and the bullet isn't stopped by your vest, you're either dead or crippled to the point of not being able to do anything. If your vest does happen to stop a bullet, you'll be winded, you'll be bruised, and you might even have a few broken ribs. So a bullet hitting you almost always leaves you out of commission in some shape or form.

Another thing that tends to be forgotten in games is that guns, as loud and scary as they may be, are very, very inaccurate compared to their video game counterparts. That's all for the better though, since "put millions of rounds into a building and hope we kill the enemy" does not make for a good game mechanic.

But yea, health in games can be high enough to remove the rush gained from playing them (see halo).
 

Vampire cat

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Apr 21, 2010
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Blank Kold said:
People need to stop underestimating bullets. Those fuckers are scary as hell. If you get shot and the bullet isn't stopped by your vest, you're either dead or crippled to the point of not being able to do anything. If your vest does happen to stop a bullet, you'll be winded, you'll be bruised, and you might even have a few broken ribs. So a bullet hitting you almost always leaves you out of commission in some shape or form.

Another thing that tends to be forgotten in games is that guns, as loud and scary as they may be, are very, very inaccurate compared to their video game counterparts. That's all for the better though, since "put millions of rounds into a building and hope we kill the enemy" does not make for a good game mechanic.

But yea, health in games can be high enough to remove the rush gained from playing them (see halo).
Maybe the "emptying millions of rounds towards their possition" would end when gamers realized the more effective approach was to calm down and take aimed and controlled shots or bursts at their enemy? ^^ That naturally doesn't appeal to everyone, but if a game provides some decent amount of weapons there would be something for everyone, even with realistic ballistics.

I've received training with the HK MP5, and it's a very stable weapon, much more so than the AG3 and HK 416 that I've also had the pleasure of firing. I still really think that implementing some corresponding ballistics to games would work very well, especially considering the close ranges at which most games plays out these days. The diminished accuracy and less controllable recoil wouldn't really be felt all that much.

However I've only heard the stories of people getting shot in their vest, and some have fainted from the hit, and it always ends up in serious bruising and usually some fractured bones. Any weapon of some power will go trough it though, bullets are scary things...
 

Blank Kold

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Aug 24, 2010
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Vampire cat said:
Maybe the "emptying millions of rounds towards their possition" would end when gamers realized the more effective approach was to calm down and take aimed and controlled shots or bursts at their enemy? ^^ That naturally doesn't appeal to everyone, but if a game provides some decent amount of weapons there would be something for everyone, even with realistic ballistics.
You misunderstand me. I'm saying that if games want to be realistic, that's how they would be. Since not dying is a major goal of people in real military engagements, suppressive fire exists in abundance.