Halo: Reach, Noble Controversy

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Tomo Stryker

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Alright let me just say that I have watched my friend play Halo Reach because I'm currently unable to play Xbox 360 because of a lot of pain in my digits. Anyway I want to clarify that I have played all the of other Halo game franchise and I didn't think the plot was bad but the voice acting was terrible and I have also read one of the books Eric Nylund's The Fall of Reach. I personally thought that it was well written and composed well, for a gaming book anyway. But the heart of the matter is that I immediately from the get go of Halo Reach didn't like ANY of the characters, I didn't like how Kat and Noble leader were always going at each other and totally ignoring the chain of command. Now if you haven't read The Fall of Reach please don't slander my question with anti Halo hate, hear me out. Eric Nylund described the Spartans as hulking figures of muscle, sinew, and silence; instead we get these drama Spartans who spew emotion and empathy at ever flipping turn. I don't have a problem with the game itself, I think its excellent and the graphics are fantastic! I just wanted to take a step back and analyze this, I'm not sure why but I just find opposite of what we already learned and expected from Spartans of the past (well future actually). Anyway I wanted to get that off my chest, please put your comments, agreements, or disrespect bellow.
 

Billska

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The spartans in Reach are spartan III's, apart from Jorge. Does that answer your question?
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Given that the Spartans in question were Spartan III's, soldiers who began their career as normal grunts like the rest rather than being brought up with the sole purpose of being a super soldier, I'd say that the display of emotion is relevant. And, to be honest, I'd expect a show of emotion from anyone present in such a circusmtance. Reach was a fortress world, perhaps the best defended human world in the galaxy. These defenses protected a significant portion of the infrastructure required to carry on the fight against a genocidal enemy. Without these assets, only a miracle could save the species.

Reach was more than a battle for yet another ball of mud. It was more than just another line in the sand. It represented the only tangible hope humanity had of winning the war. From the Spartans who time and again put down revolts or slowed the advance of the enemy to the ships and weapons of war necessary to continue a war that had already cost the lives of untold billions, Reach was the linchpin of Humanities defensive effort.

So, consider for a moment the crushing weight of the circumstances. Here you face a foe who has rarely tasted defeat, who has brought to bear more personnel and firepower than humanity had yet faced. The formidable defense of Reach put up a hell of a fight and the advance was costly and yet, just when it seemed victory was within their grasp, it was snatched away by the arrival of a second fleet. The ragged defenders could hardly hope to hold out long enough for relief to arrive. Their fleets were shattered, their orbital defenses lay in ruins and the fight on the ground a mere formality as the covenant maneuvered to burn the planet from orbit. The defense was lost, the hope that humanity might somehow prevail in the war was a distant dream. The only thing left to do was retreat yet again.

Here, in the heart of human military might, with all the resources humanity could muster, we once gain stood on the brink of annihilation. The valiant efforts of the remnants of the defenders at least served to allow a significant portion of the population to be saved. It was through the efforts of such men and women, who entered battle knowing they had no hope of victory, that anyone escaped the planet alive. Through a surpreme sacrifice, at least something from Reach was saved.

Yet, even in this dark hour, when the best hope of human salvation lay in ruins, the Spartans stoically continue the battle. City after city has fallen, human strongholds on the planet are folding quickly and, suddenly, a single hope appears, slim though it may be. The covenant came to Reach not to crush humanity - this was simply a convenient diversion. Instead, they came for the information that, thanks to the valiant defensive effort, lay in human hands. It is here that the team is given their final missions. First, they must, at any cost, keep this information out of the hands of the enemy. Second, they must deliver a brilliant scientist to the safety of human lines.

The first job was almost certainly suicide. To deliver the information meant breaching the lines of the enemy that encircled one of the last human strongholds. It meant treading where enemy concentration was thickest and all they had to see them through was a few personal weapons and a battered transport. There could be no delusions at this point: the odds were too long and the mission almost certainly suicidal.

All but one member of Noble team would give their lives in defense of the world. Jorge would die hoping that, by his sacrifice, Reach could be saved. Kat died in the chaos that followed the utter route of a human stronghold. Carter died to allow the remnants of the team the slimmest opening necessary to allow the delivery of the package. Emile and Six died to allow the package to escape.

The price humanity would pay for the loss of Reach would be enormous. Hundreds of ships were lost. Countless divisions were hurled into hopeless battle in the hopes of turning the tide. Millions of civillians were massacred before they could escape. The bulk of the Spartans available to humanity would be lost. In the face of such a defeat, even the most stalwart band of heroes would have to question the merit of standing their ground. Even the boldest would question the merit of throwing themselves into a battle with no hope of victory.
 

Tomo Stryker

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Ya, Spartan III's would actually explain it. Still I think its funny that Johnson lasted longer than Noble Six without any Spartan Armor.
 

Space Spoons

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I'm not extremely familiar with the lore of the Halo universe just yet, but on the subject of ignoring the chain of command, I kind of got the impression that this was what was expected of Spartans. Suggestions might be made by higher-ups on how best to carry out missions, but unorthodox solutions of the variety that only the superpowerful, cybernetically enhanced Spartans can carry out would be the order of the day.
 

Shock and Awe

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Tomo Stryker said:
Ya, Spartan III's would actually explain it. Still I think its funny that Johnson lasted longer than Noble Six without any Spartan Armor.
Its speculated that Johnson is actually a SPARTAN I.
 

Kermi

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Space Spoons said:
I'm not extremely familiar with the lore of the Halo universe just yet, but on the subject of ignoring the chain of command, I kind of got the impression that this was what was expected of Spartans. Suggestions might be made by higher-ups on how best to carry out missions, but unorthodox solutions of the variety that only the superpowerful, cybernetically enhanced Spartans can carry out would be the order of the day.
Dr. Halsey basically said this to Carter. She actually chewed him out for blindly following orders when he's supposed to be a Spartan.
 
Mar 30, 2010
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I got the limited edition that came with a short diary written by Dr Halsey, in which she waxes lyrical about the fact that the Spartan project was taken out of her hands and that the newer Spartans don't meet her standards. I reckon that covers the plot disparity you mentioned (I haven't read the book but I think I get what you're driving at).
 

Katherine Kerensky

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Mar 27, 2009
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One of the things that gets me is that these are meant to be Spartan IIIs (Apart from Jorge, apparently), yet their armour is nothing like the Semi-Powered Infiltration-Armour (S.P.I.A.) that Spartan IIIs use, and Dr. Halsey had no idea about the Spartan IIIs existing until shortly before she arrived on Onyx, just after the events of the Fall of Reach. The Spartan IIIs were Ackerson's project, and Ackerson was her rival, they hated each other. Halsey meeting the Spartan IIIs makes no sense, when she didn't know anything of their existence before the events in Castle Base (Not Sword Base, it would see Halsey heads for Castle Base at the end of Halo: Reach, but when the Spartan II Blue team arrives at Castle Base, Halsey is on her own. Where is the Spartan III?).
Ach, that was just a few things that got to me... not to mention how the invasion of Reach was completely different in the book...
Still, it was a good game, even if it did butcher the story line...
 

Thyunda

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Greyfox105 said:
One of the things that gets me is that these are meant to be Spartan IIIs (Apart from Jorge, apparently), yet their armour is nothing like the Semi-Powered Infiltration-Armour (S.P.I.A.) that Spartan IIIs use, and Dr. Halsey had no idea about the Spartan IIIs existing until shortly before she arrived on Onyx, just after the events of the Fall of Reach. The Spartan IIIs were Ackerson's project, and Ackerson was her rival, they hated each other. Halsey meeting the Spartan IIIs makes no sense, when she didn't know anything of their existence before the events in Castle Base (Not Sword Base, it would see Halsey heads for Castle Base at the end of Halo: Reach, but when the Spartan II Blue team arrives at Castle Base, Halsey is on her own. Where is the Spartan III?).
Ach, that was just a few things that got to me... not to mention how the invasion of Reach was completely different in the book...
Still, it was a good game, even if it did butcher the story line...
Actually, the only member of Noble Team Halsey even appeared to know informally was Jorge. The Spartan II.

Aphex Demon said:
SGT Johnson is black, He is born with natural skill.
So is Emile...connection?
 

Katherine Kerensky

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Thyunda said:
-All Hail Britannia Snip-
Actually, the only member of Noble Team Halsey even appeared to know informally was Jorge. The Spartan II.
Still, she didn't even know about the Spartan III's at that point, as she hadn't hacked Ackerman's files and killed his watchdog AI. Ackerson had the Spartan III's trained in secret on Onyx, not Reach >.>
 

Thyunda

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Greyfox105 said:
Thyunda said:
-All Hail Britannia Snip-
Actually, the only member of Noble Team Halsey even appeared to know informally was Jorge. The Spartan II.
Still, she didn't even know about the Spartan III's at that point, as she hadn't hacked Ackerman's files and killed his watchdog AI. Ackerson had the Spartan III's trained in secret on Onyx, not Reach >.>
Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that perhaps Halsey didn't know about the Spartan IIIs, but just recognised them as Spartans thanks to their armour and stature. And I don't think they were trained on Reach, neither, apart from Jorge. Everybody else hailed from various other planets.
 

The_Graff

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surely anyone who does not emote in such unpleasant circumstances is psychologically damaged to the point where you really don't want them to be armed if you are on the same planet.
 

Korovashya

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First off, ass a prequel, it totally destroys the storyline, that is correct. However, not all the flaws mentioned necessarily conflict with known facts. to start, the invasion of Reach is portrayed differently in the book and the game because they are through the eyes of different people and in different places. Hence, grander, global contradictions may not be the case the Covenant or UNSC may have employed different strategies in different areas, or there could have been communications errors, etc.

Secondly, only Jun survives the game by escorting Dr Halsey to CASTLE base at the end of the game. And, the Spartans IIs in The Fall of Reach arrive to find her alone. It is not entirely inconceivable that Jun may have died during the transition, or that he died inside CASTLE base and the Spartans IIs simply never found his body. He could also have left after completing his objective or any number of things.

One of the things that Greyfox105 mentioned is that the Spartan IIIs were not wearing the SPI Armour described in Ghosts of Onyx. This is explained in that Noble team was equipped with extra equipment and better gear to better suit their specific objectives. However, what IS of concern is where the Spartans came from. Take the player for example. He (or she in my case)is listed as B312, the B indicating that he is a member of Beta Company. However, 298 of the 300 Spartans in Beta were killed in OPERATION: TORPEDO. The books and games talk of at least four Spartans of Beta who were removed before the battle of Pegasi Delta, but The Ghosts of Onyx clearly states that there were only 300 Spartans of beta company selected for augmentation and only two survived. These were confirmed to be Lucy-B091 and Tom-B292.

The main issue is in fact, how Dr Halsey knows the Spartan IIIs. in Ghosts of Onyx she meets a Spartan III for the first time on Onyx. Yet, in SWORD base, she seems totally familiar with Carter and the rest of Noble Team. She is friendly to Jorge because he is a Spartan II, yet all the others, who are Spartan IIIs, were not known to exist by Halsey at this point.

I could wax on about other plot holes, such as why Cortana needed to get to the Pillar of Autumn is never explained. Also, Halo: Reach makes the emotional response Cortana has in leaving the Autumn rather stupid, as she had literally just arrived on board. But the main points are there. The game has a good compelling story, but it requires you to ignore the rest of the Halo universe (Something easy for a lot of people i'm sure) and the characters are very one dimensional and shallow.

I would also like to point out that as Space Spoons iterated, the Spartans were expected to work cooperatively, (no pun intended) instead of hierarchically. Although Carter would always have the final say on an issue, he would be remiss not to encourage and listen to the suggestions of his team members.

Lastly, to Eclectic Dreck, the Spartan IIIs were not actually soldiers before training, they were young children just like the Spartan II class. The only difference between II and III is that the IIIs were specifically selected from orphans or refugees who had a reason to hate the Covenant. They also accepted less stringent genetic profiles for training.
 

Katherine Kerensky

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Thyunda said:
-All Hail Lelouch Snip-

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that perhaps Halsey didn't know about the Spartan IIIs, but just recognised them as Spartans thanks to their armour and stature. And I don't think they were trained on Reach, neither, apart from Jorge. Everybody else hailed from various other planets.
As a rule, all Spartans, be they IIs or IIIs, hail from different planets. The very best of the gene-pool are selected for training as children
Which is another confusing thing, as the members of Noble Team (With the exception of Jorge) would appear to be too old to be correct... they tend to be fielded as teenagers, until they are all wiped out. Survivors (exceedingly rare, 2 out of 300 is surprising) then train the next company, or get sent out to wherever.
Ahhh, nothing adds up >..<
Bungie butchered the original story, and didn't make much of an attempt to patch up the holes >.<
Oh well... I would have preferred something that fit in with the original story, but at least they made a good last game...
 

Thyunda

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Greyfox105 said:
As a rule, all Spartans, be they IIs or IIIs, hail from different planets. The very best of the gene-pool are selected for training as children
Which is another confusing thing, as the members of Noble Team (With the exception of Jorge) would appear to be too old to be correct... they tend to be fielded as teenagers, until they are all wiped out. Survivors (exceedingly rare, 2 out of 300 is surprising) then train the next company, or get sent out to wherever.
Ahhh, nothing adds up >..<
Bungie butchered the original story, and didn't make much of an attempt to patch up the holes >.<
Oh well... I would have preferred something that fit in with the original story, but at least they made a good last game...
It is accepted that they're too old - Carter was eleven at the time of Spartan-ising.
As for the canon...I suppose Bungie could throw things at the authors of 'The Fall of Reach' and insist that they were the ones that butchered Bungie's precious storyline. Wouldn't be true, but sure would be funny.
 

Zhukov

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Tomo Stryker said:
... Spartans who spew emotion and empathy at ever flipping turn.
Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

The only one who could possibly fit that description was Jorge. The rest of the squad displayed about as much emotion and empathy as a pile of heavily armed cardboard boxes.