"Hardcore Gamers" and why these are just words. [Fail Thread]

[grassgremlin]

I edited the topic because I noticed it was full of very stupid statements on my part that failed to define what I wanted to go with the issue. Sorry.

Please tell me I'm not the only one who makes this kind of mistake. Making a thread about a topic and realizing it was a very stupid topic. I am so sorry for wasting people's time.


The following a bit of a satrical discussion from a admitted casual gamer.
I never use to be.

I'm starting to get sick and tired of articles criticizing hardcore gamers . . .
. . .

. . . by bringing up games like Assassin Creed, Call of Duty and many other supposedly hardcore games.

Never have the face palm been powerful with this one.

If you're going to criticize hardcore gamers, you already failed by comparing the triple AAA games to the so called casual games like Angry Birds when I honestly think there's no such distinction between the two.

Here's how I define hardcore. When you're willing to sit through mountains of text, weapons crafting, complex upgrade trees and map drawing, then you have a right to say you're hardcore.

When you're going through compiling frame data, move properties and technical aspects of a fighting game, then you can be hardcore.

. . . but if you're just running around shooting stuff while shouting expletives online until you get the next perk (Which in my day involved hunting through the internet and game magazines for . . . cause let's be real, perks are just cheat codes) to nuke the whole battlefield, you're just as casual as the person you think plays angry birds for about an hour is.

I don't understand these games being compared to Angry Birds as hardcore when there exists hardcore players of angry birds.

The idea behind casual and hardcore is thoroughly being misused.


----------------------------
Edit: I want people to be aware that I'm neither criticizing hardcore being better then casual nor am I trying to paint either term negatively.

My point is, these are words we throw around and we really don't have any idea what they entail. And yeah, I'm perfectly happy with being casual, but I want to point out the oxymoron in framing these games as the games of hardcore while passing by the games that do actually, forcibly require a certain kind of individuals time investment.

The topic is more about picking apart Casual vs Hardcore, not about criticizing people for being either.

 

[madwarper]

I'm not sure what you mean by "fake", because I don't believe it's the game that determines whether a gamer is "hardcore" or not, but their approach to the game.

It doesn't matter whether they're playing CoD, AssCreed, or Bejeweled. If a player only plays with a pewpewpew, stabstabstab or 3-of-a-kind mentality, then they're not "hardcore". However, if they know all the stats of all the weapons to determine which gives the best DPS, memorize the map layouts to determine the best location, watch the movements of the NPC to know when best to strike without arising suspicion, or how to make your next move to set up long chains for the next 30 moves, then they are "hardcore".

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

I'm not sure what you mean by "fake", because I don't believe it's the game that determines whether a gamer is "hardcore" or not, but their approach to the game.

It doesn't matter whether they're playing CoD, AssCreed, or Bejeweled. If a player only plays with a pewpewpew, stabstabstab or 3-of-a-kind mentality, then they're not "hardcore". However, if they know all the stats of all the weapons to determine which gives the best DPS, memorize the map layouts to determine the best location, watch the movements of the NPC to know when best to strike without arising suspicion, or how to make your next move to set up long chains for the next 30 moves, then they are "hardcore".

I think it's more than just min-maxing that makes a gamer hardcore.

Learning the lore, the history. Experiencing all the different ways the game can take you, immerse you.
That's a big part of my gaming. I actually dislike min-maxers. I feel they don't enjoy the game. Different strokes I guess.

It's really hard defining a correct usage of the term hard-core.
In my view, it's enjoying games as a primary hobby. Taking the time to enjoy yourself with all of it's possibilities.
It take you in and make you think.

I think I'm waffling a bit. I'm not very good at expressing myself. Apologies.

 

[grassgremlin]

I'm not sure what you mean by "fake", because I don't believe it's the game that determines whether a gamer is "hardcore" or not, but their approach to the game.

It doesn't matter whether they're playing CoD, AssCreed, or Bejeweled. If a player only plays with a pewpewpew, stabstabstab or 3-of-a-kind mentality, then they're not "hardcore". However, if they know all the stats of all the weapons to determine which gives the best DPS, memorize the map layouts to determine the best location, watch the movements of the NPC to know when best to strike without arising suspicion, or how to make your next move to set up long chains for the next 30 moves, then they are "hardcore".

I agree. My point exactly.
I never got how these games get brought in these simple brackets of hardcore or casual.
Or how so called hardcore gamers would say something like Mario and Zelda would be casual.

I equate hardcore to how much time you willing to devote to picking a game apart . . . not how much you play that game.
Hell, an angry bird player can be hardcore.

 

[ClockworkPenguin]

If you have to put more effort into your leisure than your work.... shit, who'd want to be hardcore. It's just a flipping hobby.

Look, I get that posers can be annoying especially if you are really into a thing, but just take a step back, roll your eyes if you must, and let them get on with it. A bit of annoyance (that it would be trivial to tune out) is a worthwhile price to pay if the alternative risks alienating people who are genuinely keen (even if they are "ignorant", inexperienced, or not quite as committed to fun as you think they ought to be) about it.

 

[grassgremlin]

If you have to put more effort into your leisure than your work.... shit, who'd want to be hardcore. It's just a flipping hobby.

Look, I get that posers can be annoying especially if you are really into a thing, but just take a step back, roll your eyes if you must, and let them get on with it. A bit of annoyance (that it would be trivial to tune out) is a worthwhile price to pay if the alternative risks alienating people who are genuinely keen (even if they are "ignorant", inexperienced, or not quite as committed to fun as you think they ought to be) about it.

I'm just making a point. As a so called "Casual" I'm happy not ripping into most games. I kind of just like to play. I'm just framing the idea behind the two words and realizing how little sense the comparison is when you compare them to a lot of mainstream games.

I've grown up in days where I had to work for what I gain, but I play the games people call hardcore and I have the same level of ease as playing the games these people criticize for being casual.

 

[briankoontz]

I'm not sure what you mean by "fake", because I don't believe it's the game that determines whether a gamer is "hardcore" or not, but their approach to the game.

It doesn't matter whether they're playing CoD, AssCreed, or Bejeweled. If a player only plays with a pewpewpew, stabstabstab or 3-of-a-kind mentality, then they're not "hardcore". However, if they know all the stats of all the weapons to determine which gives the best DPS, memorize the map layouts to determine the best location, watch the movements of the NPC to know when best to strike without arising suspicion, or how to make your next move to set up long chains for the next 30 moves, then they are "hardcore".

I think it's more than just min-maxing that makes a gamer hardcore.

Learning the lore, the history. Experiencing all the different ways the game can take you, immerse you.
That's a big part of my gaming. I actually dislike min-maxers. I feel they don't enjoy the game. Different strokes I guess.

It's really hard defining a correct usage of the term hard-core.
In my view, it's enjoying games as a primary hobby. Taking the time to enjoy yourself with all of it's possibilities.
It take you in and make you think.

I think I'm waffling a bit. I'm not very good at expressing myself. Apologies.

I like both of these definitions quite a bit.

Being hardcore is about being emotionally and intellectually invested in games. It's *caring* about the games you enjoy and about your own interactions with the game.

People who game just to "pass the time", who opt for gaming over tv viewing, movie watching, or reading because it's let's say "25% more fun" are casual gamers. A casual gamer can spend a lot of time gaming, but it's not quality time.

We should separate "casual" gamers from social gamers. Many gamers game primarily to socialize, whether that be through Farmville or World of Warcraft. These are people who use games as a convenient medium to do what they care about, socializing with others, not the game per se. The game is a technological tool, like a cellphone or Facebook.

My definition of a Hardcore *game* is a game which inspires people to and can support people becoming deeply emotionally and intellectually invested in it. Chess is a classic hardcore game, while Solitaire is a classic non-hardcore game. Both games are a lot of fun, both are very popular, but one inspires deep investment and the other is a "time-waster".

So Tetris is a very hardcore game, while most AAA games are non-hardcore. A lot of games are "shallowly hardcore" - an online Call of Duty player can become emotionally and intellectually invested in maximizing his skill, kill/death ratio, and utility to his team by memorizing map layouts, min/max his mechanical skill, and so on, but he could do this in just about any multiplayer game and chooses Call of Duty just because it has a large player base. He'll just as happily move on to the next popular game when that happens - he has no *loyalty* to Call of Duty in particular.

Loving the game itself creates a hardcore game. People love chess. They love Dark Souls. They love Tetris. They love Super Mario Bros. This love causes people to become emotionally and intellectually invested and *creates* them as a hardcore gamer even if they weren't previously.

 

[shootthebandit]

Whats wrong with being a casual gamer. I used to be pretty into gaming but nowadays I consider myself casual. Some may consider me hardcore when it comes to stealth games because im pretty serious about getting a perfectly clean no alerts, no casualties playthrough

It doesnt really matter if someone is a casual or hardcore gamer and it doesnt matter how they define themselves either

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Hardcore people get the most fun out of their games. They make the most of them.


Conversely, casuals miss out on half (or more of) the fun by not doing stuff or skipping quests and dialogue and just going to the next action scene.


Because missing out is worse than not missing out, hardcore is better. It's just that simple.

 

[Julius Terrell]

I'm not sure what you mean by "fake", because I don't believe it's the game that determines whether a gamer is "hardcore" or not, but their approach to the game.

It doesn't matter whether they're playing CoD, AssCreed, or Bejeweled. If a player only plays with a pewpewpew, stabstabstab or 3-of-a-kind mentality, then they're not "hardcore". However, if they know all the stats of all the weapons to determine which gives the best DPS, memorize the map layouts to determine the best location, watch the movements of the NPC to know when best to strike without arising suspicion, or how to make your next move to set up long chains for the next 30 moves, then they are "hardcore".

I think it's more than just min-maxing that makes a gamer hardcore.

Learning the lore, the history. Experiencing all the different ways the game can take you, immerse you.
That's a big part of my gaming. I actually dislike min-maxers. I feel they don't enjoy the game. Different strokes I guess.

It's really hard defining a correct usage of the term hard-core.
In my view, it's enjoying games as a primary hobby. Taking the time to enjoy yourself with all of it's possibilities.
It take you in and make you think.

+10000000

Being hardcore is about involving yourself with the games you love past just simply playing them. I remember when I first started playing Dance Dance Revolution back in 2001. That single game got me involved in music games as a whole. In the end I've spent A LOT of money going to arcades to play DDR. More importantly I got involved with the community. I traveled quite a bit to tournaments and have made friends that I still talk to till this day.

Being hardcore is also about being competitive and being the best at a certain game.

Hell, I'm pretty hardcore about bejeweled, but I've always loved puzzle games ever since I played the original NES version of Tetris as a kid.

Casual gamers would never do anything besides play a game whenever they have time to do. Gaming isn't an active pursuit to them. I've always been a hardcore gamer, because I REALLY love video games.

Just playing the latest game doesn't make you hardcore.

I think I'm waffling a bit. I'm not very good at expressing myself. Apologies.

I like both of these definitions quite a bit.

Being hardcore is about being emotionally and intellectually invested in games. It's *caring* about the games you enjoy and about your own interactions with the game.

People who game just to "pass the time", who opt for gaming over tv viewing, movie watching, or reading because it's let's say "25% more fun" are casual gamers. A casual gamer can spend a lot of time gaming, but it's not quality time.

We should separate "casual" gamers from social gamers. Many gamers game primarily to socialize, whether that be through Farmville or World of Warcraft. These are people who use games as a convenient medium to do what they care about, socializing with others, not the game per se. The game is a technological tool, like a cellphone or Facebook.

My definition of a Hardcore *game* is a game which inspires people to and can support people becoming deeply emotionally and intellectually invested in it. Chess is a classic hardcore game, while Solitaire is a classic non-hardcore game. Both games are a lot of fun, both are very popular, but one inspires deep investment and the other is a "time-waster".

So Tetris is a very hardcore game, while most AAA games are non-hardcore. A lot of games are "shallowly hardcore" - an online Call of Duty player can become emotionally and intellectually invested in maximizing his skill, kill/death ratio, and utility to his team by memorizing map layouts, min/max his mechanical skill, and so on, but he could do this in just about any multiplayer game and chooses Call of Duty just because it has a large player base. He'll just as happily move on to the next popular game when that happens - he has no *loyalty* to Call of Duty in particular.

Loving the game itself creates a hardcore game. People love chess. They love Dark Souls. They love Tetris. They love Super Mario Bros. This love causes people to become emotionally and intellectually invested and *creates* them as a hardcore gamer even if they weren't previously.

 

[Jux]

I actually dislike min-maxers. I feel they don't enjoy the game. Different strokes I guess.

I don't see why it has to be one or the other. I'll throw myself into a game and spend countless hours learning the ins and outs, the lore, everything. But I am a min-maxer to the bone. And it is enjoyable for me. Learning the game and the meta so well that I can squeeze the most out of something? That is fun to me. Running parsers and figuring out all the DR curves? That's a goldmine of fun. But yea, I get not everyone likes that. Different strokes.

 

[loa]

Here's how I define hardcore. When you're willing to sit through mountains of text, weapons crafting, complex upgrade trees and map drawing, then you have a right to say you're hardcore.

Here's my definition of "hardcore gamer": a close minded idiot.

Why are you so eager to defend that marketing bullshit?
You're on the same level as someone insisting they are "bamboocha" and that people don't know the True True meaning of that term to me.
That whole "hardcore vs casual" dichotomy, does more harm than good to gaming.
Why perpetuate it? What is it useful for?

 

[PromethianSpark]

So people say its the attitude, and some people might think its the games. Bit of both really, there are causal wow players after all, but that is a hardcore game, much more so than most AAA titles. I think there is a confusion though in the OP. Perhaps the articles are not attacking 'hardcore' gamers as much as they are attacking 'core' gamers.

 

[Velventian]

/snip

Have to agree with you there, a hardcore gamer is not defined by a certain category of games but rather how they play them.
Sure some games may be more attractive to hard core gamers.
But for example a friend of mine turned true hardcore with need for speed underground 2, he decided to beat the game without ever loading, so winning every single race on the first try on hardest difficulty, thats pretty hard core.

MMOS tend to attract hardcore gamers, but its not the game itself that defines one as hardcore gamer, its spending something like 40 hours every week on the game, raiding 3 times a week, checking and optimizing your equipment using analysis sites and tools. Its investing themselves into the games more then the average gamer.

You play skyrim and finish the story -> gamer
You play skyrim, raise nearly every skill to 100, go for 100% map and quest completion end up with something like 500k in the bank so overpowered you just have to sneeze at any enemy for them to drop dead -> hardcore gamer

 

[PromethianSpark]

Hardcore people get the most fun out of their games. They make the most of them.


Conversely, casuals miss out on half (or more of) the fun by not doing stuff or skipping quests and dialogue and just going to the next action scene.


Because missing out is worse than not missing out, hardcore is better. It's just that simple.

How many wow players really give no fucks whats so ever to the games lore, fall asleep during the exposition before the big raid boss, and yet are still standing in Stormwind or Orgrimmar with best fucking gear that time and dedication can provide. Are they not hardcore gamers?

 

[PromethianSpark]

/snip

You play skyrim and finish the story -> gamer
You play skyrim, raise nearly every skill to 100, go for 100% map and quest completion end up with something like 500k in the bank so overpowered you just have to sneeze at any enemy for them to drop dead -> hardcore gamer

I agree with your over all point, but something about the skyrim part that irks me. I play skyrim a lot, on legendary difficulty. I have never met the conditions you describe, and yet I still feel I play skyrim hardcore. The reason for this is I feel compelled to reroll the moment I break the game, because it is no longer a challenge.

Hardcore for me is about challenge, whether it is inherent in the game, or it is a layer or condition added by the player. Hardcore gamers strive for mastery.

 

[Velventian]

/snip

You play skyrim and finish the story -> gamer
You play skyrim, raise nearly every skill to 100, go for 100% map and quest completion end up with something like 500k in the bank so overpowered you just have to sneeze at any enemy for them to drop dead -> hardcore gamer

I agree with your over all point, but something about the skyrim part that irks me. I play skyrim a lot, on legendary difficulty. I have never met the conditions you describe, and yet I still feel I play skyrim hardcore. The reason for this is I feel compelled to reroll the moment I break the game, because it is no longer a challenge.

Hardcore for me is about challenge, whether it is inherent in the game, or it is a layer or condition added by the player. Hardcore gamers strive for mastery.

You are perfectly right,hardcore doesn't mean that one has to go for the whole completion thing. Playing a game on max difficulty or trying to make the game even harder and beating it is also a way of hardcore gaming, you involve yourself far more in the game, on that kinda difficulty you can´t just run around like a crazy person with a sword, you have to think situations through any employ tactics to a certain degree.
Sometimes hardcore gaming is the exact opposite of 100% completion, just think about all those speed runs or low skill challenges.
Hell i once saw someone play gear of war on a guitar hero controller, not just as a joke, he really beat the game like that, for me that´s hardcore at least to a certain degree.

 

[PromethianSpark]

Hell i once saw someone play gear of war on a guitar hero controller, not just as a joke, he really beat the game like that, for me that´s hardcore at least to a certain degree.

Though completely insane, that sounds kinda of fun.