Has Bioware been falling in quality?

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80Maxwell08

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I do hope to have a reasonable thought out discussion about this. Before I start though I request that you seriously think deeply about this since many of the problems do become quickly apparently under scrutiny. Also feel free to argue only one game or all of them if you so desire. Since it seems this entire console generation they have been slipping with some minor exception to Dragon Age Origins, and I do mean minor because for whatever fun it is the game has no sense of balance with mages practically being easy mode and is nearly completely unoriginal.

1: Mass Effect
While I do give Mass Effect credit for trying to blend RPG and TPS together it has some serious problems with writing and balance. Many of the dialog options are completely pointless since they all lead to your character doing the exact same thing, for example right after the beginning mission when you talk to the council the only times you talk all of your options are basically the same (for example the first one you accuse Saren of attacking the colony and the second you get angry at the council for not believing you, someone who has just come out of a temporary coma). Biotics are beyond overpowered in small rooms when they basically lift every enemy onto the ceiling and Soldiers have nearly no need for their skills at all (I managed to beat the whole game without even knowing the skills on normal). Also there are some serious holes in logic like the entire universe all speaking English (EDIT: people have said this was explained in the Codex in a PM). Then we get into more well known problems like the horrible drop rates which make menus a nightmare and the Mako which personally I didn't have a problem with but I fully understand why others do.

2. Dragon Age Origins
I'm going to be honest here I haven't played enough to know much more than the balance thing so this is only here to quickly talk about the unoriginal thing. The darkspawn just feel like fancy undead to me, the Fade is obviously the Warp from Warhammer/Warhammer 40000 and many of the other fantasy elements were never trying to be original in the first place (ex: elves, dwarves, etc). However I do give it some leniency because it was essentially Baldur's Gate 3 which was a D&D lisenced game and it's combat also feels very D&D with some modifications.

3: Mass Effect 2
Once again I managed to beat the entire game as a soldier on normal with no skills, also when I did Tali's recruitment mission on Hardcore for the geth assult rifle I honestly didn't feel challenged at all again and didn't use a single skill the entire time. I will give ME2 this at least it feels like everything has more weight. The thermal clips were easily an improvement over ME's combat where some end game weapons could basically be fired forever. Biotics feel way more powerful with moves like warp and shockwave, though are still a bit overpowered when I can knock an entire line of enemies off the railing with a single skill. Also the "mixed" classes feel like they are way more usefull with unique skills like charge and tech armor (which actually did change my entire playstyle). However the writing gets seriously abysmal at times. Every single conversation with the Illusive Man feels like nothing but BS with the game practically taunting you that you are forced to work with him, like the option to say "I'm not working for Cerberus" which leads to "I'm working with Cerberus because....". Fusing the speech skills and the morality bars was a horrible decision because, aside basically meaning if you are a dick/saint enough times you get good at persuading both dicks and saints, if you actually do the RPing in RPGs then if you even try to have a grey morality then you are screwed because many of the dialog options needing max paragon or renegade. Also once again holes in logic. How can they possibly explain everyone in the entire universe all replacing their old weapons in a year?

4: Dragon Age 2
Lets start with the combat. For an action RPG the cooldowns are way too long for that to matter and for being tactical like the original Dragon Age everything moves way too fast for a lot of tactics to be effective (ex: rouge's AOE stun skill is almost useless if they change targets since how fast enemies move). Also the trash mobs make absolutely no sense when going to fight a single enemy or small group of enemies and having 30 more spawn out of the ether.
Next story. I get they were trying to make a story about someone's rise to power rather than an epic story about saving the world. Also I will give them the sections where Varric is lying and making up some awesome lie are pretty cool. However the 3rd act makes no real sense with everyone basically attacking everything. Also leliana always being there even if you killed her is total BS.
Now writing. Ok this does not start well. Literally the starting sequence doesn't start well. As soon as the normal game starts (after Varric's little lie at the beginning) your very first dialog options are all basically the same. Also from what I've heard when talking to the very first npc in Kirkwall one of the sets of dialog options are all literally the same but I don't own the game anymore to confirm this. Characters are hit or miss but then again when aren't they? Also forcing you to romance Anders or shut him down is just bad. If you disagree just imagine that scenario in real life and tell me if that makes any sense for someone to just get pissed and not talk to you again because you aren't gay.

Now for a new topic. Retconns. Many of these are nothing but pointless like flemeth's apperance and the look of the darkspawn. Then we get to things like Leliana not being dead if you killed her. If you didn't know why that was there then the lead writer basically it didn't fit into the story HE was telling. Would the game have been better without them I don't know but all they really do is just make things inconsistent.

5: Glitches
If you were expecting SWTOR then it's way too soon to honestly talk about that. However a pattern I have notices is many of Bioware's recent games have been rife with glitches and bugs. Mass Effect has plenty of wierdness happening with graphical glitches and such then we have stuff like the game glitching so you can't leave an elevator. Dragon Age Origins still has problems and I'm afraid to keep going since last time I did the game glitched and made it so I could go neither forward or backward, also I saved after it glitched without knowing about the glitch so I quit since I didn't feel like restarting. Mass Effect 2 has tons of graphical bugs like flickering eyes from clipping and all your party members just running around when you talk with the council again. Also I've managed to get myself about 30 feet in the air without even trying by walking up a wall. DA2 was a bit unstable for me with the sound cutting out several times with no real indicator of what caused it and it crashed a few times in about 6-7 hours.

6: DLC
First off I have no problem with DLC personally but I don't like that day 1 DLC crap when it's already made and they withhold it because they can. With that said ME only had 2 pieces of DLC and one of them was free if you bought it new. DA:O has an absolute ton of DLC and that guy in your camp basically advertising the DLC was a bad move there. ME2 also has a lot of DLC but you can only use it if you have the Cerberus Network DLC so basically if you buy used you have to pay for DLC if you want to pay for any of the other DLC. I wish I couldn't believe that no one said this was a bad idea but I know they still are trying to make money. Now DA2 goes absolutely balls to the wall with its quite frankly off DLC choices. Basically making people go on a scavenger hunt across the internet (or googling it) to get a bunch of weapons was just odd but I don't get why they did it save for the ones you needed to play the facebook game to get. I can't comment on the DLC that came later since I sold the game a few days after it came out since I was not going to play it again.

If you want to argue any of these points then please go ahead. Let's try to have a reasonable discussion here. Also if I can say one quick thing about SWTOR why did they keep the dialog wheel for that when it was designed for consoles? Ok that is it sorry for the absurdly long post and now let's discuss.

EDIT: I just came up with a better title. Changing it now.
 

Kahunaburger

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Well, DA2 is the only really terrible Bioware game. Certain elements of their games keep getting worse over time (they try too hard on the humor, they devote way too much attention to badly written romance subplots, etc) but ME2 was a solid game. Haven't played SWTOR, but people seem to be enjoying it. So my verdict is wait for ME3 to come out.
 

80Maxwell08

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Kahunaburger said:
Well, DA2 is the only really terrible Bioware game. Certain elements of their games keep getting worse over time (they try too hard on the humor, they devote way too much attention to badly written romance subplots, etc) but ME2 was a solid game. Haven't played SWTOR, but people seem to be enjoying it. So my verdict is wait for ME3 to come out.
I disagree about ME2 since the story was absolute crap. Also my time with the SWTOR beta was fun but pointless. It was basically a Bioware RPG with a chatbox so I could talk to people. I still don't get why they added the holocron collecting. Also I doubt people will say anything about ME3 for a very long time so no point in that I just won't get it. Also good points about the humor and romances there was some absolutely horrible jokes in DA2, many of them basically being some variant of calling Isabella a slut.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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DA2 is the only game that's been a disaster. And I did enjoy it for a single playthrough. And only because the story was interesting enough. I blame EA for all of those DLC's. I remember when more weapons and armor and stuff like that were rewards for doing something awesome and difficult in a game. Now it's something you buy. It's disgraceful.
 

drmigit2

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DA2 was not a disaster, it was an above average game that is unfortunately being compared to its predecessor, which is probably the closest you can get to being in a tolkein world. While the setup in DAO may not have been the most original, the interactions and characters made up for it.
 

Crazedc00k

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Well, Bioware was known for quality, expansive RPGs with great depth and limited accessibility. Then at some point they became known for story, writing, and tight gameplay. Isn't it possible we have a warped expectation of the company because of its past? Should we really restrict them to one kind of game? It's not like they could make a game so bad that there reputation would be irreparably damaged, a game that would be a community in-joke until the community was no more.

*Looks at Dragon Age II*


Then again, maybe they could.
 

80Maxwell08

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drmigit2 said:
DA2 was not a disaster, it was an above average game that is unfortunately being compared to its predecessor, which is probably the closest you can get to being in a tolkein world. While the setup in DAO may not have been the most original, the interactions and characters made up for it.
I'm not even comparing them. I didn't beat either one since I didn't feel liek restarting DA:O because that glitch and I got tired of DA2 crashing. However a year and a half of development time combined with the design philosophy of "rush the crap out of this" could never end in a good game. You know Anders's cat? He wasn't in DA2 because they didn't want to waste the time on making animations for it which were already present in Origins. I don't know about programming but I can't imagine it would have taken long to copy and paste that. No one reacting to you being a mage or blood mage is also because of this.
 

drmigit2

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80Maxwell08 said:
drmigit2 said:
DA2 was not a disaster, it was an above average game that is unfortunately being compared to its predecessor, which is probably the closest you can get to being in a tolkein world. While the setup in DAO may not have been the most original, the interactions and characters made up for it.
I'm not even comparing them. I didn't beat either one since I didn't feel liek restarting DA:O because that glitch and I got tired of DA2 crashing. However a year and a half of development time combined with the design philosophy of "rush the crap out of this" could never end in a good game. You know Anders's cat? He wasn't in DA2 because they didn't want to waste the time on making animations for it which were already present in Origins. I don't know about programming but I can't imagine it would have taken long to copy and paste that. No one reacting to you being a mage or blood mage is also because of this.
All these seem minor in reality. Oh noooo Anders doesnt have the optional cat from the previous games!? As a whole the characters were interesting, and thats what we expect most from bioware. The two worst offences I personally see in DA2 are as follows. A lack of a central plot, and the repeating dungeons. The second one really hits a nerve but in the end, so many games do this that really its status quo. It was daring enough to revamp the oldest system bioware has used, attempted a new graphics engine, and on top of that the individual stories were good by themselves. It was a step down from DA:O, but that does not make it a "total failure".
 

80Maxwell08

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drmigit2 said:
80Maxwell08 said:
drmigit2 said:
DA2 was not a disaster, it was an above average game that is unfortunately being compared to its predecessor, which is probably the closest you can get to being in a tolkein world. While the setup in DAO may not have been the most original, the interactions and characters made up for it.
I'm not even comparing them. I didn't beat either one since I didn't feel liek restarting DA:O because that glitch and I got tired of DA2 crashing. However a year and a half of development time combined with the design philosophy of "rush the crap out of this" could never end in a good game. You know Anders's cat? He wasn't in DA2 because they didn't want to waste the time on making animations for it which were already present in Origins. I don't know about programming but I can't imagine it would have taken long to copy and paste that. No one reacting to you being a mage or blood mage is also because of this.
All these seem minor in reality. Oh noooo Anders doesnt have the optional cat from the previous games!? As a whole the characters were interesting, and thats what we expect most from bioware. The two worst offences I personally see in DA2 are as follows. A lack of a central plot, and the repeating dungeons. The second one really hits a nerve but in the end, so many games do this that really its status quo. It was daring enough to revamp the oldest system bioware has used, attempted a new graphics engine, and on top of that the individual stories were good by themselves. It was a step down from DA:O, but that does not make it a "total failure".
The cat wasn't supposed to be major but being in a mage hating town full of templars as a blood mage with your companions who hate blood mages is definitely a big plot hole that is only there because laziness. I repeat that characters are always hit and miss so I won't argue that one though they definitely seem more "Japanese" than before especially Merril and Fenris. Also why did you put total failure in quotes? I'm pretty sure I didn't say that anywhere and I didn't see anyone else say it either. It seems that they kinda forgot that a 3 act structure was supposed to be 3 acts of the same story rather than 3 smaller stories though. No one is going to argue the repeating dungeons though. Personally I just hate it because how little effort went into it. Many of the characters had backstories completely glossed over and the new graphics engine was absolute crap. There is no excuse for weapons floating 5 inches away from your body in 2011 and the DX11 on PC was horribly mishandled to the point where it takes a stronger PC than freaking Crysis 2.
 

Ragnarok185

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DA2 is one of the more ORIGINAL RPGs out there. I didn't like Origins that much because it waaaaaaaaay too cliche for me. however the characters were interesting and thats where Bioware excels in.

I also think the new anime art style is better those fucked up looking shit.

yes repeating Dungeons pissed me off as well.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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Other than DA2 (which I havnt played) I think ME3 might give us a good indicator...

anyway ME2 is one of my favorite games, however I do ackowledge that the plot "moves sideways" and it doesnt have as much depth....but that depth (micro managing palette swap gear...yay) didnt add all that much IMO
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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80Maxwell08 said:
Kahunaburger said:
Well, DA2 is the only really terrible Bioware game. Certain elements of their games keep getting worse over time (they try too hard on the humor, they devote way too much attention to badly written romance subplots, etc) but ME2 was a solid game. Haven't played SWTOR, but people seem to be enjoying it. So my verdict is wait for ME3 to come out.
I disagree about ME2 since the story was absolute crap. Also my time with the SWTOR beta was fun but pointless. It was basically a Bioware RPG with a chatbox so I could talk to people. I still don't get why they added the holocron collecting. Also I doubt people will say anything about ME3 for a very long time so no point in that I just won't get it. Also good points about the humor and romances there was some absolutely horrible jokes in DA2, many of them basically being some variant of calling Isabella a slut.
Oh yeah, ME2 had great characterization and solid gameplay. Its one downfall was the mediocre story. And after DA2, mediocre main stories may become a trend for them.
 

Zhukov

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I honestly don't know.

All I can say is that I prefer their more recent offerings to the older stuff. For example, I loved ME2 but found KOTOR to be an absolute chore.

As for DA2... while I enjoyed it, it certainly didn't measure up to their standard.
 

SpaceBat

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The only excellent games Bioware has ever created were the baldur's gate games. From there on out, the games have been able to maintain a decent level of quality, up until DA2, which flopped. Kotor isn't the incredible game people say it is. It's an incredibly flawed, but good game, just like the ME series and DAO (and perhaps NWN as well). So no, they're just trying out new things, but the quality has been the same since KotoR.

RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Its one downfall was the mediocre story. And after DA2, mediocre main stories may become a trend for them.
Kotor's story is fairly mediocre as well, only the way they told it was well done. This has been a trend since 2002. Unfortunately, they're still one of the best developers to go to for this, seeing as Black Isle went bankrupt and Obsidian can't seem to get the hang of good gameplay.
 

HHammond

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I pretty much disagree with all the points you made about Mass Effect. It's a solid game with some of the best writing in Video Games and maybe you found it easy but I know a lot of people who found it quite difficult. I found 1 to be average (and 2 was fairly easy, yes) but not so easy I was bored. Compared to SWKOTOR the writing is much, much better.

80Maxwell08 said:
1: Mass Effect
Also there are some serious holes in logic like the entire universe all speaking English.
They do explain stuff like this in the codex and in 2 they directly mention that everyone in the universe is equipped with a translator.
 

Arina Love

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Apr 8, 2010
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Nope don't think so. loved every bioware game this generation including DA2, yeah there is some problems but they don't reduce the end experience for me. And i can say tat Mass effect series is the best games i have ever played. Even with swtor (Sage 32 lvl healer),they pulled of MMO in interesting way, because there is balance in it. ie stuff you have to do with others = stuff you do alone and i find it's a perfect thing for mmo. If you playing games and want everything logical you are doing it wrong, it's a game they don't have to connect and explain everything to you, just enjoy experience.
 

Alpha Maeko

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My fondness and nostalgic love of KotOR makes it hard not to see most of their new games as not-so-good.

KotOR & Jade Empire & Dragon Age: Origins & Mass Effect are all amazing. Their sequels? Not so much. The length of the development cycle seems to be the key. All of these franchises took what seems like a decade of previous development before being released. Their sequels take no more then 1 - 2 years.

I would hate to wait 5 - 10 years between Bioware games, but I wouldn't mind waiting 3 - 4 years instead of 1 - 2, if they can just put more love into it instead of more cash-grab.