Having just finished Planescape: Torment, it's not THAT well written, is it?

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Nick Cave

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To clarify, with "not THAT well written" I mean it's not the best writing in any game evahr by a mile. I still thinks it's good mind you, but unless you think overly verbose worldbuilding is the be-all end-all of quality, I wouldn't barely even call it top tier.

I started off quite well. The setting is unique enough (especially for CRPGs, which tend to be utterly generic in these aspects) and it's not every game you play a grey tattooed (supposedly, the graphics and art do a shite job on conveying that) zombie chatting away with a floating skull. You are amnesiac however, but even the sun has spots of shite on it.

I also liked the fairly subversive mood it started up with. Most zombies are just lurching around (again, supposedly they're a helping hand, but I never really saw them do anything) and you don't really gain much from killing them. You can, of course, but the focus overall is on dialogue and storytelling, with the dialogues themselves almost seeming like a puzzle. Holy shit, it's like the CRPGs managed to take a step forward in 30 goddamn years of stagnation!

After getting out of the mausoleum though, the goodwill I had just started pouring out of every vein. Suddenly I was in "generic impossibly rough fantasy village #10000000000" and the plot just fucking stopped. I'm serious, from getting out of the Mausoleum and meeting Pharod is a third of teh game with nothing happening! There's no plot progressions whatsoever! I guess you meet a companion and can learn some backstory in a fairly tedious (although the writing was strong enough to actually make it good) "repeat the same dialogue option x10 my WIS is 19 *****". But that's about it. Meanwhile you're constantly assaulted by a neverending stream of suicidal thugs who apparently think they've got nothing better to do than attack the only armed people in sight. They don't even attack the merchant, just the seven foot undead zombie ************ with an axe bigger than his head. I guess you're just too swole to control and they got provoked.

Following the meeting with Pharod the game actually start getting good, like really good, like "holy moly this really is something!" Sadly, this streak of genuinely fantastic writing (the slow revelation of your past incarnation and your history with your companion is brilliantly done. Although it begs the question why they show such devotion to you when you're such a complete ****, but whatever, it's fine) comes to a such a schreeching halt after the meeting with Ravel I wonder if the lead writer either died, or was fired and someone else took over, because oh my Christ it got terrible.

So after the infamous meeting with Ravel (and also the fairly banal and uninteresting question that isn't really what the game is about), we're teleported into the middle of some fuckoff desert town while Ravel get's killed by some villain we've never seen before. The narrative yet again comes to a screeching halt as we must complete five boring and stupid bitchquests before the asshole NPCs will even allow us to continue the story, and that when things start to get really retarded.

Apparently this "resistance movement" will just accept any asshole to just come in, immediatly hand him five seemingly important bitchquests (with no supervision) and when he's done, just hand him the key to the cellar in the fucking Inn which leads to a dungeon leading to a prison? What the fuck is that? Then after the absolutely worst segment in the game (anyone who can say the game doesn't force you into combat can suck a fat cock here), you finally meet him! Yes, him! The man you've been searching for for the past five hours! The dude himself! THE GUYS WHO MIGHT FINALLY maybe give some vague directions about where you're meant to go next...oh...no...

What follows is storywise definitely the dumbest part of the game. It's so obvious the budget ran short and they had to edit with a fucking meat cleaver, but it's still so awful I can't really believe people let the game get away with it.

So the angel says "oh I don't know shit", aww gee whiz thanks ravel you old ****. So Trias just send you to some other dude who might know something, so you just step though two portal and you're insantly there, atleast Trias can teleport me where I actually need to be. So I talk to him AND THE FUCKER DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING EITHER! Ok, fine, it's a really obscure thing I need to find, plus he's atleast a modestly funny character, so I can forgive him. he tells me to talk to a pile of skulls that might know the location AND THEY DON'T FUCKING KNOW EITHER! RRRRAAAAAAAAUUUUUUSSSSSS! WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS?!

So yeah, the skulls are just fucking clueless, instead they're like "oh hey you know that guy you talked to, did he give you his surname? No? Oh, well you see, it's trias The Betrayer, yeah, he does that a lot." So I go back AGAIN to Trias occupying some town with chaotic shit I really don't care about whatsoever, so I whoop his ass, and finally, after like fifteen hours of meaningless wankery and filler the plot can continue. Well there's some bollocking to do first in the Mausoleum, but it's actually related to the plot so I don't mind it too much.

Then we get to the ending, and while it does resolve the story in the most generic way possible, unlike most video games it actually is a resolution, amazing.

I'm sorry for this being such a rant, but the last third of the story is just so unbelievably terrible for a game that gets this much praise for its writing, and to add to that, there's many more flaws as well.

The dialogue is way too verbose. it's not even "flowery", like Shakespeare monologues, but just overly complicated and awkward to read and doesn't really seem like something people would actually say. I also wish they'd adopted some form of other descriptive prose than "generic nerdy DM", adopt some beautiful goddamn language ya sods.

Oh, and the alignment system is so unbelievably terrible it's impressive they even tried crowbaring it into the games story. Turning "the eternal struggle" into some retarded "order vs chaos", where people can literally be described as good, neutral or evil. It's not even relevant to the main narrative so i don't even know why they bothered.

I don't want to end on a too negative note, so let me just say when the game is good, it's goddamn excellent. It's way of interweaving bit-by-bit of unchronological backstory is both mysterious and compelling. And I was genuinely hooked for a good fifteen hours between Pharod and leaving Ravel, and not many games manage to hook me like that. As it stands I probably even would call it the best written RPG played (it would be rivaled by the Witcher games, if only they had better resolutions and overall character arcs) and it is almost top tier. But the flaws just seem incredibly overlooked, and it really doesn't hold a candle to Silent Hill 2 or games of that caliber. Still glad I played it, though.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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I feel like your post deserves a reply longer then what I am about to give, but this is all I've got so it will have to do:
Planescape: Torment has aged terribly. It was contemporary with Baldur's Gate 1/2 and Fallout 1/2 and just a few years after Diablo. Compared to any of those games it is a marvel of philosophical contemplation, complex characters and has an actual message about morality and culpability. But it is also coming close to being 20 years old at this point.

The NPCs were great for their time, the open ended design was inventive and the idea of slowly piecing together memories out of order to slowly reveal more and more of (and put more spins on) the characters backstory was still a fresh storytelling move. Arguably, modern games towers above it in most respects, especially the Witcher II: Assassins of Kings in terms of telling a story about morality and culpability. PS:T was great for its' time though and deserves to be remembered for being a masterpiece compared to its' peers at the time. Putting it up against 2 decades of evolution in game narratives is decidedly unfair, especially when it was the pioneer in many of the things that would go on to become genre staples (like interesting party NPCs with their own fleshed out backstories).
 

Pyrian

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Honestly I couldn't get into Planescape:Torment. But that part you hate where the Betrayer sends you on a wild goose chase instead of answering your question? The way you describe it makes it sound awesome. Lol.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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I don't really get the whole "it was good for its time" especially with regards to writing. Writing wasn't a young art at the time of Planescape: Torment, everyone should've already known what good writing was even at that time. The game either had good writing or it didn't. And, good for video games doesn't matter, the writing is good or bad regardless of medium. I understand that much of the gaming community was young at the time so the writing probably seemed better than it was to most gamers that played it.
 

Pyrian

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Phoenixmgs said:
Writing wasn't a young art at the time of Planescape: Torment, everyone should've already known what good writing was even at that time.
Meh? The OP was abundantly clear that he's talking about the overall plot, not specific pieces of written text within it. RPG game plotting doesn't match one-for-one to any other type of writing.
 

Zhukov

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*shrug*

It's a solid story sprinkled with some Philosophy 101 and wrapped in a crappy D&D dungeon crawler.

Given the standards of the time I can see why it was well regarded.

Would have been better as a point-and-click-adventure.
 

Wrex Brogan

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...Well, Gethsemani beat me to the punch, but as they said it hasn't aged well. A lot of what it did was mired in how the genre operated at the time, which has changed over the 20-odd years - the flowery dialogue, the enormous text boxes, the back-forth quests, the god-awful combat, none of these things really exist in modern day RPGs anymore, especially with the shift away from the Puzzle-game heavy 90s to the more action-adventure focus of the 2010s. It also doesn't help that a lot of what hasn't changed the game damn well helped codify, so that it ends up feeling incredibly generic when you go back and play it after years of more modern fair.

It is a good game. It's just... also an old one. A really, really, REALLY old one.
 

Nick Cave

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Gethsemani said:
I feel like your post deserves a reply longer then what I am about to give, but this is all I've got so it will have to do:
Aww cheers mate, didn't intend it to be as long as it got, I'm just a bit undisciplined when writing on forums.

Anyway, not sure I completly buy the age argument. Silent Hill 2 is only two years younger and still holds up as one of the strognest narratives in a game, and people still herald the game up as "the best story in gaming".

Zhukov said:
*shrug*

It's a solid story sprinkled with some Philosophy 101 and wrapped in a crappy D&D dungeon crawler.

Given the standards of the time I can see why it was well regarded.
Did you finish it? This was largely my opinion until I got past Ravel, the it turned into a "disjointed and poorly put together story wrapped in an absolutely abyssmal dungeon crawler".
 

Zhukov

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Nick Cave said:
Zhukov said:
*shrug*

It's a solid story sprinkled with some Philosophy 101 and wrapped in a crappy D&D dungeon crawler.

Given the standards of the time I can see why it was well regarded.
Did you finish it? This was largely my opinion until I got past Ravel, the it turned into a "disjointed and poorly put together story wrapped in an absolutely abyssmal dungeon crawler".
Fair enough.

My opinions on the game aren't strong enough to bother defending. After playing it my reaction was, "Huh. Okay then. That was alright I guess." Then I promptly forgot about it. I only remember it when someone brings it up here.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Nick Cave said:
Anyway, not sure I completly buy the age argument. Silent Hill 2 is only two years younger and still holds up as one of the strognest narratives in a game, and people still herald the game up as "the best story in gaming".
Name any other game that has a story as strong as Silent Hill 2. Any game. Silent Hill 2 is, by all accounts, an anomaly in terms of narrative, story and atmosphere. It arguably has more in common with some of the strongest horror movies of all times then it has with almost any other game, including its' own predecessor and successors, in that it is a uniquely personal narrative that works on several different levels.

Planescape was good for its' time, but as far as I can tell it is mostly remembered for its' conceit, that you are an Amnesiac Big Bad, and its' ending where the Nameless One has to owe up to all the things he's done (and the NPCs as said previously). It is not remembered for being a strong narrative throughout, especially since the amnesia part is maintained for waaaaay too long.
 

Nick Cave

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Gethsemani said:
Nick Cave said:
Anyway, not sure I completly buy the age argument. Silent Hill 2 is only two years younger and still holds up as one of the strognest narratives in a game, and people still herald the game up as "the best story in gaming".
Name any other game that has a story as strong as Silent Hill 2.
Maybe a bit controversial, but I felt SOMA comes very close (if you ignore the silly WAU shite) and Spec Ops: The Line even surpasses it in some areas, they are very different stories though it it's hard to directly compare, but both of those similarily fit a "Where the hell did this game even come from?" category.

I do agree That SH2 is an anomaly, sad that team Silent went back immediatly and made SH1 again right after, it's so unlike anything else they've made I guess the planets must have aligned or something.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Nick Cave said:
Maybe a bit controversial, but I felt SOMA comes very close (if you ignore the silly WAU shite) and Spec Ops: The Line even surpasses it in some areas, they are very different stories though it it's hard to directly compare, but both of those similarily fit a "Where the hell did this game even come from?" category.
Can't comment on SOMA, as I haven't played it. Spec Ops doesn't really have a good story though, as much as it is an incredible deconstruction of shooter genre conventions and plot points. It is definitely a good game in the sense that the narrative and meta plot are heads above other games, but that's because it hinges on other games being convention bound to deliver its' twists and player punches, not because the story is very good.
 

Nick Cave

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Gethsemani said:
Nick Cave said:
Maybe a bit controversial, but I felt SOMA comes very close (if you ignore the silly WAU shite) and Spec Ops: The Line even surpasses it in some areas, they are very different stories though it it's hard to directly compare, but both of those similarily fit a "Where the hell did this game even come from?" category.
Can't comment on SOMA, as I haven't played it. Spec Ops doesn't really have a good story though, as much as it is an incredible deconstruction of shooter genre conventions and plot points. It is definitely a good game in the sense that the narrative and meta plot are heads above other games, but that's because it hinges on other games being convention bound to deliver its' twists and player punches, not because the story is very good.
Eh, it's a fine story on its own. Sure Walker doesn't have much in a case for a backstory, but it a clear, tight, impeccably paced emotional narrative going on. Even without the meta shenanigans it's still easy to care about the characters and the situation involved.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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Samtemdo8 said:
Makes me wonder how Torment: Tides of Numenera is gonna fair since its the spiritual successor to Planescape.
Well it's certanly interesting. You aren't the big bad like in Planescape, but instead are a shell he used and then abandoned. In mid air.
 

Dankaf

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Samtemdo8 said:
Dankaf said:
Gethsemani said:
Name any other game that has a story as strong as Silent Hill 2.
Easily. Deadly Premonition. But you probably didn't play it, so yeah.
...Ok let me comprehend this, I look at your quoted post and it says the thing about Silent Hill 2 and was quoted by Gethsemani?

I look at the actual post and it has your name Dankaf?

So did you replied to yourself and thought to cover it up by changing your name?
You seem crazy :)
I quoted Gethsemani on one sentence, nothing more.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Dankaf said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Dankaf said:
Gethsemani said:
Name any other game that has a story as strong as Silent Hill 2.
Easily. Deadly Premonition. But you probably didn't play it, so yeah.
...Ok let me comprehend this, I look at your quoted post and it says the thing about Silent Hill 2 and was quoted by Gethsemani?

I look at the actual post and it has your name Dankaf?

So did you replied to yourself and thought to cover it up by changing your name?
You seem crazy :)
I quoted Gethsemani on one sentence, nothing more.
No I just misread a post thinking it was what I originally replied to you.