Help! Is it legal for managers to take staff's tips?

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luke10123

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So the Escapist may not be the ideal place to air this greivance nut I'm not really too sure what to do at the moment...

The deal is that I've transferred from one pub to another in a national (UK) chain and there is apparantly a ploicy in my new one that ALL tips must be put straight into the tills. This was put in place after some money went missing from the tills (before mesteriously re-appearing after this policy was put into place). This isn't told to the customers (feels like fraud), is taking money directly out of the pocket of the bar staff (feels like theft) and may even go as far as tax avoidance (the money goes towards 'covering wastage',etc which basically all goes to increasing bonuses (ie. adding a fifth to managers pay...). This are all cash tips given to us for our service, I've done a little reading it seems like it's a transaction between the customers and individual staff and the management doesn't really have the right to get involved...

Has this happened to anyone before? Any advice anyone could give would be really helpful!
 

Bertylicious

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Fucking tipping should be illegal. It's total bullshit.

Anyway, the reason for tips going into the tills is so it can be accounted for. This protects you and the employer in the event of a dispute, as the money will all be accounted for so a fair ruling can be reached, and, yes, gives visibility of this income to the HMRC.

You should, however, also have a method of recording the processed tip. This is where we reach the end of my knowledge as I don't work in the catering industry. I imagine there must be a process in place for you to declare when you receive a tip so that your employer can process it in your pay minus tax and NI deductions.

If there is no such process in place then that does strike me as a bit of an issue, though I would advise you to check your contract of employment to see if it mentions anything about tips and, if not, consult the Direct.gov website for advice.
 

SonicWaffle

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luke10123 said:
The deal is that I've transferred from one pub to another in a national (UK) chain and there is apparantly a ploicy in my new one that ALL tips must be put straight into the tills.
Wait, what? People here in the UK tip? In a pub of all places?!

Sure, we've all done the "buy yourself a drink, love" at one time or another, but what kind of a barperson doesn't just drink the drink? Sounds like a Wetherspoons or something.
 

Antari

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luke10123 said:
So the Escapist may not be the ideal place to air this greivance nut I'm not really too sure what to do at the moment...

The deal is that I've transferred from one pub to another in a national (UK) chain and there is apparantly a ploicy in my new one that ALL tips must be put straight into the tills. This was put in place after some money went missing from the tills (before mesteriously re-appearing after this policy was put into place). This isn't told to the customers (feels like fraud), is taking money directly out of the pocket of the bar staff (feels like theft) and may even go as far as tax avoidance (the money goes towards 'covering wastage',etc which basically all goes to increasing bonuses (ie. adding a fifth to managers pay...). This are all cash tips given to us for our service, I've done a little reading it seems like it's a transaction between the customers and individual staff and the management doesn't really have the right to get involved...

Has this happened to anyone before? Any advice anyone could give would be really helpful!
Although I am not familiar enough with UK law on the subject. Tips are considered gifts here. Which would place the manager's practice solidly in the theft zone. He cannot demand what was not intended for him or the business. But was intended to go to the server.

I would give the regional representative for the franchise a call and see what they have to say on it.
 

luke10123

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Bertylicious said:
Fucking tipping should be illegal. It's total bullshit.

Anyway, the reason for tips going into the tills is so it can be accounted for. This protects you and the employer in the event of a dispute, as the money will all be accounted for so a fair ruling can be reached, and, yes, gives visibility of this income to the HMRC.

You should, however, also have a method of recording the processed tip. This is where we reach the end of my knowledge as I don't work in the catering industry. I imagine there must be a process in place for you to declare when you receive a tip so that your employer can process it in your pay minus tax and NI deductions.

If there is no such process in place then that does strike me as a bit of an issue, though I would advise you to check your contract of employment to see if it mentions anything about tips and, if not, consult the Direct.gov website for advice.
I've requested the stuff on tips from my contract and it's pretty ambiguous - it says that tipping policy is decided by the area manager - my question is do they have the right to tell me to put all my tips in the tills to boost the managers bonus. And no, there's no record kept of what we get when it goes into the tills.

SonicWaffle said:
Wait, what? People here in the UK tip? In a pub of all places?!

Sure, we've all done the "buy yourself a drink, love" at one time or another, but what kind of a barperson doesn't just drink the drink? Sounds like a Wetherspoons or something.
It's usually kindly old folk that occasionally leave a pound or 50p if you're really nice to them or people saying 'keep the change'. At the end of the day it may not be a vast quantity of money, but it all adds up - considering I'm working 48 hour weeks to scrape by with the rent...
 

BeeGeenie

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You, sir, are getting robbed.

Tips are intended as a gift to the employees, not to the business.

Although, generally, I agree with Bertylicious:
Bertylicious said:
Fucking tipping should be illegal. It's total bullshit.
At least over here in 'Murica, tipping has gotten way out of hand.
 

Frungy

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luke10123 said:
So the Escapist may not be the ideal place to air this greivance nut I'm not really too sure what to do at the moment...
I agree, but here's my 10c worth anyway...

luke10123 said:
The deal is that I've transferred from one pub to another in a national (UK) chain and there is apparantly a ploicy in my new one that ALL tips must be put straight into the tills. This was put in place after some money went missing from the tills (before mesteriously re-appearing after this policy was put into place). This isn't told to the customers (feels like fraud), is taking money directly out of the pocket of the bar staff (feels like theft) and may even go as far as tax avoidance (the money goes towards 'covering wastage',etc which basically all goes to increasing bonuses (ie. adding a fifth to managers pay...). This are all cash tips given to us for our service, I've done a little reading it seems like it's a transaction between the customers and individual staff and the management doesn't really have the right to get involved...
Okay, this raises a lot of interesting points:

1. This new policy sounds like it impacts on how much money you take home at the end of the day, decreasing your net earnings. That's quite a fundamental thing for the manager to decide without consulting with staff. In effect the manager has lowered your take-home pay. What is he proposing to give you in return? The blanket statement about tips policy is not, in my opinion, sufficient to cover such a radical shift in your take-home pay.

2. I agree that there is an element of dishonesty in what the manager proposes. The customer leaves a tip for the server, not for the bar, manager or anyone else. Customers are aware that sometimes there are differences in how tips are processed, for example at some restaurants tips are collective, and split evenly between all the staff, and in other places the manager or restaurant takes a "processing fee" to cover the cost when a customer adds the tip to a credit card bill. These are reasonably fair examples of policies, since they modify the procedure, but the core intent (that the tip reaches the waiter) remains unchanged. Restaurants in some countries are very clear that it is not a tip, for example in France you will often see a 10 or 15% fee at the bottom of the bill, sometimes called a "seating fee", "table fee" or "service charge". French restaurants use this fee to cover the cost of paying waitering staff, but are clear that this is NOT a tip. If someone leaves a tip on the table in excess of this amount then the waitering staff accept it as theirs.

If your manager wishes to take customers tips, which are left with the intent of the money going to the waiter, then it should be made clear that the tips are not going to the waitering staff. A large and clear sign would accomplish this purpose, or perhaps just replacing the "tip" portion of the bill with a different label, for example, "manager gouging his customers for an extra 10% without raising prices on the menu".

3. The fact that a significant portion of the tips goes to the manager, without advertising the fact to the customer, borders on fraud. If your manager announced tomorrow that if you want to work at the restaurant then you'll have to turn over 20% of your tips to him... well, there would be outrage, claims of fraud, and claims that he was demanding a bribe from the waitering staff. In effect this is what his new policy amounts to. Staff who refuse to hand over tips will have been fired for failing to bribe the manager. If the money ONLY went to the restaurant chain, and the manager did not profit in any way then he'd be reasonably safe, but if it affects his income via his bonus, then it amounts to a bribe, plain and simple.

4. You're also spot on about the tax implications. If the restaurant is receiving additional income, and not recording or declaring it then this is unquestionably tax fraud, and you could report him to HMR&C (HM Revenue and Customs) and get the establishment audited. A more serious question though, if the income is not being recorded properly, is whether it is indeed going to the restaurant at all, or whether it is going into the manager's back pocket. Since the manager has publically declared that the policy is designed to offset restaurant expenses if the manager is then pocketing the money it would be receiving monies under false pretences, in effect fraud/theft.

You haven't given some critical details, like whether the tips paid to the restaurant are being recorded, however on the face of things as you've presented the issue it seems like your manager has opened himself up for criminal charges. You could contact CIFAS (the UK's non-profit fraud-prevention service) and put the question to them, alternatively there are other non-profit legal aid service where you could get advice, however I would suggest that you first gather some evidence, such as photographs, sworn statements, and a fuller understanding of where the money is going and how it is being used.

Here's a quite interesting article on fraud law in the U.K.
http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/docs/cp155_Legislating_the_Criminal_Code_Fraud_and_Deception_Consultation.pdf

After skimming it, it appears that your manager could be charged under multiple sections of the U.K.'s criminal code.

Just beware that there are also laws against blackmail in the U.K., so you have to tread very carefully in advising your manager that the new policy could be illegal. You cannot, for example, threaten to have him arrested unless he rescinds the policy, because that would be blackmail and would make you an accessory in concealing a criminal act (money has been misappropriated, in your opinion criminally, and you have failed to report it to the police, and instead used it to force the thief to take action in a manner you desire - blackmail).

My advice is, first gather whatever evidence is easily obtained, then warn your manager that what he's doing may be illegal (preferably in writing - but avoid specifics as you don't want him claiming you slandered him, something general like, "I am concerned that the new tipping policy: (quote tipping policy) may not be entirely legal." and avoid stating what you want him to do about it). If he fails to correct the issues then take legal advice and turn over the evidence to the police. You'll find it much easier to follow-up with a tort case once a criminal conviction has been secured, although honestly it probably won't be worth it since U.K. tort law only covers direct losses, not punitive damages.

Or you could just get creative:
- Blue 'flu - All the waitering staff call in sick for a couple of nights. Let him see how much fun it is to run the restaurant on his own.
- Inform customers - Tell customers that the tips aren't going to you, and watch the tip revenue dry up... as well as the manager probably losing customers.
- Quit en masse - All or most of the waitering staff quit, preferably during an extremely busy period.
- Letter from your laywers - Most lawyers only charge a small fee for writing a letter to tell someone off. Get several staff to each chip in a bit and it doesn't cost all that much, but looks terribly impressive and threatening, plus he'll think twice about doing something stupid like firing anyone.

Just remember that whatever you do, cover your ass. You sound like you can't afford to be fired, so make sure everything is in writing, and you're above-board in every way. He might still fire you for rocking the boat, but if you have documents dating from before the firing showing that you were warning him off about possible illegal activity then he looks incredibly guilty.
 

Bertylicious

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luke10123 said:
Bertylicious said:
I've requested the stuff on tips from my contract and it's pretty ambiguous - it says that tipping policy is decided by the area manager - my question is do they have the right to tell me to put all my tips in the tills to boost the managers bonus. And no, there's no record kept of what we get when it goes into the tills.
The line "at the Manager's/Companies discretion" basically means bugger all and in practice means "in line with statutory regulation" or custom and practice.

A'ight, so here's what you do:

Step 1 - Check the HMRC Direct.gov website to verify the law in regards to tips.

Step 2 - Speak to your colleagues who have been at the pub for a significant length of time to get an understanding as to whether this is an existing custom and practice.

Step 3 - Contact the national chain's HR department to verify the policy on tipping and how it should be administered. It may be that your manager is breaching company policy and action will need to be taken. If that is the case they will require you to put your concerns in writing. You or they may wish to make use of the greivance procedure, which is probably going to be in line with ACAS guidelines. You should have been given details of the greivance procedure when you started but, well, actually you probably weren't because you work in a pub. Check the ACAS website if you're not clear on it.

You know what they say chum; all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
 

Bertylicious

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Frungy said:
luke10123 said:
So the Escapist may not be the ideal place to air this greivance nut I'm not really too sure what to do at the moment...
I agree, but here's my 10c worth anyway...

luke10123 said:
The deal is that I've transferred from one pub to another in a national (UK) chain and there is apparantly a ploicy in my new one that ALL tips must be put straight into the tills. This was put in place after some money went missing from the tills (before mesteriously re-appearing after this policy was put into place). This isn't told to the customers (feels like fraud), is taking money directly out of the pocket of the bar staff (feels like theft) and may even go as far as tax avoidance (the money goes towards 'covering wastage',etc which basically all goes to increasing bonuses (ie. adding a fifth to managers pay...). This are all cash tips given to us for our service, I've done a little reading it seems like it's a transaction between the customers and individual staff and the management doesn't really have the right to get involved...
snip
In this instance I would not council speaking to the Manager as the concern is directly regarding the manager.
 

Frungy

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Bertylicious said:
In this instance I would not council speaking to the Manager as the concern is directly regarding the manager.
I would agree that speaking to the manager would be a mistake, which is why I proposed a written communique, however it is necessary to bear in mind that the objective here is NOT criminal charges against the manager, but rather a restoration of the tips to the waitering staff, and incidentally to cover the OP's back against being fired or otherwise persecuted by this manager or subsequent managers.

A dated and witnessed memo raising concerns about the legality of the new policy (without being specific) gives the manager a chance to reconsider, and the formality of the communication gives it weight. It also now places the OP firmly under the protection of legislation to prevent punitive measures against "whistle blowers", and any attempts to fire/demote/chastise/etc. the OP would be sufficient grounds for legal action against the manager.

The odds that the manager will reconsider his policy on the basis of the memo are unknown, but it may happen. Remember that a criminal case might take a several months to investigate, and then months or even years at trial. The OP's problem is immediate.

If the OP decides to try and escalate the issue within the franchise then the very first question the OP will be asked is, "Did you raise this with your local manager". The memo provides evidence that the issue was raised locally, and allows escalation within the franchise.

Communicating with the local manager is a necessary and important step.
 

luke10123

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Thanks for your replies everyone, I've contacted The Pay & Work Rights helpline and they're going to get back to me. I'm actually genuinely surprised I couldn't find a clear answer to the question: 'Can my employer take my cash tips?' online, the question is never addressed as if it's so obvious that it doesn't need a responce...
 

Bertylicious

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Frungy said:
Bertylicious said:
In this instance I would not council speaking to the Manager as the concern is directly regarding the manager.
I would agree that speaking to the manager would be a mistake, which is why I proposed a written communique, however it is necessary to bear in mind that the objective here is NOT criminal charges against the manager, but rather a restoration of the tips to the waitering staff, and incidentally to cover the OP's back against being fired or otherwise persecuted by this manager or subsequent managers.

A dated and witnessed memo raising concerns about the legality of the new policy (without being specific) gives the manager a chance to reconsider, and the formality of the communication gives it weight. It also now places the OP firmly under the protection of legislation to prevent punitive measures against "whistle blowers", and any attempts to fire/demote/chastise/etc. the OP would be sufficient grounds for legal action against the manager.

The odds that the manager will reconsider his policy on the basis of the memo are unknown, but it may happen. Remember that a criminal case might take a several months to investigate, and then months or even years at trial. The OP's problem is immediate.

If the OP decides to try and escalate the issue within the franchise then the very first question the OP will be asked is, "Did you raise this with your local manager". The memo provides evidence that the issue was raised locally, and allows escalation within the franchise.

Communicating with the local manager is a necessary and important step.
This isn't America mate; as long as the employee is being paid legally, i.e. above the minimum wage, then I don't reckon he or she has any right to tips and it's all at the company's discretion. However you are right, the OT was about the legality of this so let's check out what the good old HMRC have to say on the matter:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/payroll/special-pay/tips.htm

Right, so basically it depends on how the organisation is dealing with the tips. If the Manager is acting as the "Troncmaster", a fully mad term if ever I heard one, then him taking the tips in is fine. The issue is what he then does with the tips which is a matter between the manager and the company, highlighted by the employee. The employee isn't really a whistle blower in this instance; he's alerting senior management to the misdemeanour of a colleage who just happens to be his line manager. You're right in that he would be protected under whistle blowing legislation, but I can't really see such protection as being neccesary.

I mean, if he points this out to his bosses boss that this guy is fiddling the books he is basically a corporate hero.

It is, however, equally possible that the Manager is working well within company policy and the OP simply doesn't know about that policy and is misunderstanding how it all works. I'd advise following the steps I outlined before launching into any manner of greivance process or other confrontation as it would sour his relationship with the Company and his manager for no real good reason.

This is why I said tipping is bullshit; it's an American thing relating specifically to personnel who are paid below the minimum wage in order to receive some crazy irregular payment. It has no place in the UK because we have statutory regulation to protect people from being in that situation. Now I work in manufacturing rather than the... foody...pub-y... industry, it's been a long day and I'm tired, so I can't be certain but I don't reckon anyone has a legal right to tips but I do know that if you receive tips then you should declare them to the HMRC or you are breaking the law.

Which is another reason why tips are bullshit. Just another bloody thing to worry about.

EDIT: Here's a bit I found on the Citizens Advice website which hopefully clarifies the situation:

Tips and service charges
Tips in cash which are voluntarily given by a customer to a worker, such as a waiter, count as a gift from the customer to the worker. They therefore do not form part of the worker?s pay. Even if the cash tips are pooled by all the workers and shared out amongst them, they still remain gifts to the workers and so are not part of their pay.

If a service charge is compulsory, that is, it is added to all bills automatically, it is the property of the employer. The employer can share it out between the workers as the employer wishes. If the worker has a clause in their contract saying they are entitled to a share of the service charge, they should get this on top of their wages.

If a tip is paid by a customer voluntarily adding an extra amount to a credit card or cheque payment, the tip is the property of the employer. The employer can share it out between the workers as the employer wishes. However, if the worker is given a share of the tip, this should be paid on top of their wages.
 

Frungy

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Bertylicious said:
This isn't America mate; as long as the employee is being paid legally, i.e. above the minimum wage, then I don't reckon he or she has any right to tips and it's all at the company's discretion. However you are right, the OT was about the legality of this so let's check out what the good old HMRC have to say on the matter:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/payroll/special-pay/tips.htm
Firstly, I'm not American, so stow the attitude. Secondly, the page you quoted allows for 3 options:
1. Direct - from customer to server.
2. Indirect - from customer to employer to server
3. Indirect - from customer to tronc (collective tip fund) to server

Note that none of these options include an option for employers to merely keep tips intended for servers. It just clarifies how tax is paid in each case.

Bertylicious said:
Right, so basically it depends on how the organisation is dealing with the tips. If the Manager is acting as the "Troncmaster", a fully mad term if ever I heard one, then him taking the tips in is fine. The issue is what he then does with the tips which is a matter between the manager and the company, highlighted by the employee. The employee isn't really a whistle blower in this instance; he's alerting senior management to the misdemeanour of a colleage who just happens to be his line manager. You're right in that he would be protected under whistle blowing legislation, but I can't really see such protection as being neccesary.
Ummm... no. In terms of that article the Troncmaster distributes money to other employees and is responsible for handling tax on the tips. Nowhere does it legally entitle the Troncmaster to simply take all the money for himself or the organisation. And taking money is not a misdemeanour, it is theft and/or fraud, and is a criminal charge.

The OP's contract states that there will be tips, although precisely how they are distributed is a matter of local policy. Having addressed the issue of tips explicitly in the contract there is therefore a reasonable expectation of tips as one of the forms of payment for the job, thus removing tips entirely would be a breach of contract. Hence it could be argued that the employer has acted against the spirit and intent of the contract.

Bertylicious said:
I mean, if he points this out to his bosses boss that this guy is fiddling the books he is basically a corporate hero.
Naive much?
Manager's pitch to franchise HQ - "I'm improving profits in my branch by interpreting the clause in the contract regarding tips as our right to keep all the tips. This means bigger profits for HQ!!"
OP's pitch - "The manager has implemented an unfair and possibly illegal policy that deprives me of my tips!"

... who's pitch would the HQ like? You obviously haven't dealt with big business much. They'll let their local manager take the risks, and if it flies then they'll roll out the same policy country-wide and pull in the profits. If it fails though they'll think nothing of sending in a new manager and getting rid of the troublesome employee who ruined their plan to make extra profits.

Bertylicious said:
It is, however, equally possible that the Manager is working well within company policy and the OP simply doesn't know about that policy and is misunderstanding how it all works. I'd advise following the steps I outlined before launching into any manner of greivance process or other confrontation as it would sour his relationship with the Company and his manager for no real good reason.
Yes, but the OP should also cover his ass, because grievance processes are a two-way street.

Bertylicious said:
This is why I said tipping is bullshit; it's an American thing relating specifically to personnel who are paid below the minimum wage in order to receive some crazy irregular payment. It has no place in the UK because we have statutory regulation to protect people from being in that situation. Now I work in manufacturing rather than the... foody...pub-y... industry, it's been a long day and I'm tired, so I can't be certain but I don't reckon anyone has a legal right to tips but I do know that if you receive tips then you should declare them to the HMRC or you are breaking the law.
You're just all full of wrong today, aren't you. Tipping is a very pub-y thing. The first recorded incidents of tipping are in English pubs in the 18th century, where if you wanted drinks delivered to your table then you had to slip the barmaid a little something... cash that is, not anything else... well, maybe, but that would involve a lot more cash.

And you're being ridiculous and confusing two things. No-one is coercing the customer into leaving tips, however if you do a good job and a custome decides to leave a tip then the manager has no right to it.

Let me put this another way. You work in manufacturing. Let's say a customer comes to your company and says they need a rush order. You and your crew work like mad and get it done in time. The customer comes in to pick it up and drops off a couple of cakes for the production crew as a thank you gift. Then your manager walks down onto the shop floor and takes the cakes up to the executive boardroom for the managers and execs to eat. Would you feel pissed? I mean if they came down and shared a slice of cake with the lads then no-one would mind, but if they're so insanely greedy that they can't let you have a slice of cake when you busted ass to get a job done?

I'm pretty sure that's how the OP sees it.

Bertylicious said:
Which is another reason why tips are bullshit. Just another bloody thing to worry about.
Funny story, a Japanese friend of mine went to the U.K. recently... and sat waiting in a restaurant for 30 minutes watching nearby diners to see if she had to tip or not. She was terrified of causing offence by leaving no tip where one was customary. I told her that she's a student... students rarely ever tip.

Bertylicious said:
EDIT: Here's a bit I found on the Citizens Advice website which hopefully clarifies the situation:

Tips and service charges
Tips in cash which are voluntarily given by a customer to a worker, such as a waiter, count as a gift from the customer to the worker. They therefore do not form part of the worker?s pay. Even if the cash tips are pooled by all the workers and shared out amongst them, they still remain gifts to the workers and so are not part of their pay.

If a service charge is compulsory, that is, it is added to all bills automatically, it is the property of the employer. The employer can share it out between the workers as the employer wishes. If the worker has a clause in their contract saying they are entitled to a share of the service charge, they should get this on top of their wages.

If a tip is paid by a customer voluntarily adding an extra amount to a credit card or cheque payment, the tip is the property of the employer. The employer can share it out between the workers as the employer wishes. However, if the worker is given a share of the tip, this should be paid on top of their wages.
Well since the tips up until now have been paid directly to the OP in cash, which means they fall into the first category. Therefore the employer has no right to the money.
 

Bertylicious

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Frungy said:
I'm not sure we actually disagree on much besides how brilliant tipping people is.

My points about the company policy were directly related to what the OP can do to address the situation. If the head office have a clear policy in place which his manager is in defiance of then he can pursue the matter through corporate channels. If, however, the company policy is effectively unlawful, well... that's another matter entirely and far harder to deal with. Probably be easier to just get another job.

As for that business with the Troncmaster; on closer inspection it seems that a Tronc is a 3rd party who doesn't work for the company, not dissimilar to those organisations that hold the security deposit in a rental agreement. I guess its possible that a company employee could work as a Tronc but that would effectively be a position outside of the employment contract. I don't think that's the situation here.

Now I am not so certain what the situation is if the employees are actively handing cash money over to the employer but my interpretation of these statements is that if the company is involved in handling the money then the tip effectively becomes property of the company. What they do with the money is then up to them. My flatmate used to work at a bar where they did this and in his case the company effectively levied a charge and then distributed the rest amongst the staff. I imagine the charge was to address tax and NI deductions.

Employment law can be a rather sticky business when it comes to contractual clauses as a lot of it is decided by court cases and precedent. It may be that whilst the CAD statement about tips is perfectly valid, it may also be lawful for the company to make it a neccesity for staff to declare their tips. That you have the right to retain the tip, but if you exercise that right then you are in breach of your contract of employment. I simply do not know one way or the other because it isn't my area of expertise, though I would say that I imagine that if that were the case then the contract would have to explicitly state that. The HMRC website seems to support this view:

Tips received directly and kept by your employees
If your employees receive tips directly from your customers and are allowed to keep them, then you do not need to do anything for PAYE tax or NICs. There are no NICs due on the money, and the tax due is the employee's responsibility. Your employees should declare the money to HMRC, who will usually adjust their tax code to collect any tax due.

I dunno. As I've set on multiple occasions this isn't my area of expertise but as far as I can tell, and this is based on a lot of speculation and inferred meaning, the company could exercise the right to retain the tips under UK law.
 

Bertylicious

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Frungy said:
Naive much?
Manager's pitch to franchise HQ - "I'm improving profits in my branch by interpreting the clause in the contract regarding tips as our right to keep all the tips. This means bigger profits for HQ!!"
OP's pitch - "The manager has implemented an unfair and possibly illegal policy that deprives me of my tips!"

... who's pitch would the HQ like? You obviously haven't dealt with big business much. They'll let their local manager take the risks, and if it flies then they'll roll out the same policy country-wide and pull in the profits. If it fails though they'll think nothing of sending in a new manager and getting rid of the troublesome employee who ruined their plan to make extra profits.
I'd like to reply to this separately as it off topic but I feel a need to set something straight:

It is in the best interests of the employer that they operate within the law and that they ensure their staff are doing the same. "Big business" don't usually do too well if they shaft either their workforce or their customers. If an organisation allows their managers to break their codes of practice and policies then it only a matter of time before they go to the wall.

I have worked in the corporate environment for 10 years. I have had the fortune to start in a shaky, parochial, organisation where people acted badly, working against each other and failing to deal with problems like dodgy managers who played fast and loose with the law, that through changes in management and culture evolved into an organisation that worked with ethics and good practice to become a fine, solid company.

Good practice and ethics aren't about morality, they're about good sense. I don't know what experiences you've had in the world of work but it sounds like you've either just worked for some shit businesses or not worked much at all.
 

MorganL4

Person
May 1, 2008
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SonicWaffle said:
luke10123 said:
The deal is that I've transferred from one pub to another in a national (UK) chain and there is apparantly a ploicy in my new one that ALL tips must be put straight into the tills.
Wait, what? People here in the UK tip? In a pub of all places?!

Sure, we've all done the "buy yourself a drink, love" at one time or another, but what kind of a barperson doesn't just drink the drink? Sounds like a Wetherspoons or something.
Think about it..... You have an 8 hour shift, 2 people an hour do the "Buy yourself a drink love" shtick you are talking about, eventually the man/woman behind the bar is going to just want to do their job and not keep drinking alcohol... (assuming they are not an alcoholic)
 

Commissar Sae

New member
Nov 13, 2009
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I can only answer based on Canadian law so this may not be helpful. Here a job where tips are expected have a lower minimum salary to balance out the tips and all tips need to be declared as income on taxes. Here it would considered illegal for a manager to insist that tips go back into the still as it is officially recognized as part of their income.

Ethically it is all kinds of crooked and honestly I would either inform customers of the practice (quietly) or outright quit. Working in the service industry is enough of a pain in the ass without crappy managers. Otherwise these other two fine gentlemen have pretty much outlined the best courses of action available to you.
 

Psykoma

New member
Nov 29, 2010
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Can anyone find something that shows cash tips are legally treated as gifts between two individuals in the U.K.? Because from what I can tell (https://www.gov.uk/tips-at-work/tips-and-tax), cash tips are taxed, and I don't exactly recall having to pay taxes on any cash gifts I have received.

My advice, find out:
- What the company policy on the tips are
- Where and in what proportions the tip money is going.
- Whether or not the tips are being recorded and reported to the tax authorities.

Because from what you've said, it's entirely possible that what's being done (while distatsteful) would be perfectly legal.

Looking at this:
https://www.gov.uk/tips-at-work/overview

How your employer handles tips
The government has a ?Code of Best Practice? on tips that says how your employer should handle them.

It's voluntary - your employer doesn?t have to follow it - but if they do, they should have a policy on tips that includes information on:

how tips are distributed (eg if a tronc is used)
if cash and card tips are treated differently
the name of the troncmaster (if there is one)
any deductions taken from tips
what happens during leave (eg holidays, sick leave, parental leave)
It looks like they'd be well within their rights to appropriate some of the tips received.

So if they're recording and reporting the tips to the tax authorities, and they are following the corporate policies, then I don't think you'd have any recourse - it seems like they'd be completely within their rights.
 

Ralen-Sharr

New member
Feb 12, 2010
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if the manager is taking your tips, and it's all legal and ok by policy, then tell your customers to not tip
 

The Funslinger

Corporate Splooge
Sep 12, 2010
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At least around here, the tips are pooled and then divided up among staff equally, per shift.

It gives people bonuses, and the same incentive to try to earn good tips. I was working a washing up job where I was given a tip share, because of this policy. It was good, because it usually bumped me over the £20 mark per shift, which meant when I collected a wage packet, it was easier to put straight in the bank.