How about one for the "true believers" ?

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Razorback0z

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I dont know about you, but I am becoming increasingly worried about what seems to be a gradual but perceptable descent into simplicity, linearity and predictability in most gaming genres.

When I say simplicity I could refine that to mean in this context, a lack of unecessary diversity and realistically implausible options. Stuff you find that you dont use, stuff you can do even though it serves no purpose in the game.

So you already think Im babbling ?? and maybe I am, but bear with me.

I started gaming at home, for real, on a VIC20 so I have been at this for a while. Like most of you nodding over 40's I also did the usual arcade antics etc, but I always regarded myself as ending up gaming on what we now call PC's, because I found that "home computer" based games always had a degree of complexity and detail that attracted me.

So while I spent too many hours at things like Elite on a BBC Micro or later Masters of Orion on my 286, I would dream about the days when I could enjoy near photo realistic graphics and real time performance on a home computer and not just at the studios of Industrial Light and Magic. Much to the dismay and dissapointment of most of my adult friends and my ex wife, I have not only continued to enjoy my passion for computer gaming into my mid 40's, my interest is actually growing because the technology is now just reaching the level I always imagined it would.

Lately though (and it could be me) I seem to have been percieving a reduction in the very levels of detail and complexity that I crave to maintain interest in a game. Here are some examples of both ends of the scale that had me thinking enough to bother to type all this waffle. I will no doubt leave out games that I hope others of you will remind me of in my examples. My prefered genre is RPG/MMORPG in case you dont work it out :)

The Good End :

System Shock - so many items, options and events that you never knew what to expect, or when. You invariably had a dozen items on you that you had no idea whatsoever what to do with or what function they performed. Everytime you played, you saw something you hadnt seen before.
UFO early series as above
Fallout 1 and 2 - as above
Ultima Online - As above to the power of 10
Baldurs Gate and its associates same to a lesser extent
Jagged Aliance series - highly detailed and option rich
Deus Ex/Theif - scrapes in as probably the last of the games from developers with the mindset needed to make such games

The Ok :

Everquest 1 and 2 (but mostly 1) - lots of areas, lots of items, lots of stuff to do, play it for 3 years... you wont see it all
Sims and its associates - enough there to keep even a moderately intelligent person occupied for some time
EVE - lets not go into why, but it is sufficiently detailed to qualify in the context of this post - happy to explain in responses
Dark Age of Camelot - came very close to being the perfect model for an MMO at the time. Still has more content than most
GTA3 was ground breaking in terms of its free world with atention to detail. The sequels got porgressively simpler and are a great example of the degeneration Im talking about highlighted acorss a number of years in one game. I mean why not add all the stuff from each game instead of removing things like they did ? Ehy no character development in GTA4 like there was in Vice City ? Or the taking over the neighborhoods ? Why less each time and not more ?
Mount and Blade - at least someone is trying to make a game where there is some exploration and discovery, nice try, worth your time to check out.
Soldiers of Anarchy, Men of War - no one makes detailed combat sims like the Eastern Europeans. Both games, detailed, complex in terms of options and strategies, full of discovery and choices.
Mass Effect... nearly did it... 12 months more work on the content and Id probably still be playing it now.

The Bad :

Spore - are you haivng a laugh Will ? could you have raved on any more about the magnitude and complexity of something that was actually so simplistic and linear its mind numbing..... I really wanted Spore to be what it was promoted as, the reviews told a story of most people being taken by surprise at the diminutive nature of the end product. What happened ?
Fallout 3 - The main reason for this post is a clip I saw for the upcoming expansion Pint Lookout, which on the face of it (and I am prepared to admit I am pre-judging and may be wrong) appears to be a zombie shooter. Again, why take a franchise based on a game that was so highly detailed, complex, option rich and had so many hours of pure exploration play in it and reduce it to an FPS. I really enjoyed FA3, right up to the point I ended the storyline about 8 or 10 hours into my first play session ( I was not timing but it was day one of owning the PC version). Go google "how fast can you finish fallout 3" because I was so shocked that I had done it, I wanted to see what others thought. I admit I was even a bit surprised that so many other people felt the same sense of dissapointment with this aspect of the game. The developers seemed (after much rhetoric about retaining the franchise's soul) to comletely miss the flavour of FA1 and 2 in respect to the magnitude of the adventure required to be a sequel to those 2 games. Instead large numbers of players accidentally stumble on the ending 5 minutes into the game, relatively speaking.
GTA4 - From one of my favorite games, to not even bothering to finish it, it was so deeply underwhelming. I just dont understand why something has to be stripped back to the bare minumum so shamelessly. Why doesnt anyone want to be applauded for over achieving or taking a risk anymore ?

So without listing any more examples let me throw some thoughts at you that come to me when I am stuck in traffic or doing the dishes.

Almost without exception (WoW and I will come to it), the MMO's since EQ2 have been shamefull attempts to cash in on the sucess of World of Warcraft while the market is "hot", I dont think anyone with an IQ larger than their ram size in gigabytes needs to be told that. I will make special mention of Tabula Rasa (the rest dont deserve it for being so uterly mediocre) which stood out as the shining example of the old joke "what is a camel ?", "a horse designed by a comittee". It was without doubt the worst product to disgrace the market since SWG/NGE, which itself transitioned from a complex item and exploration rich game of potential, to console shooter almost overnight. I played TR for 20 minutes, posted a prediction on MMORPG.com that the game wouldnt make 12 months and that Richard Garriot would need to leave the planet to escape the shame. I was wrong on both, it lasted 18 months and Richard came back from space.

So I think I have defined the problem. Now let me offer some hope.

I have a dream that in the not too distant future, games of increasing depth, complexity, maturity and exploration rich opportunity will begin to re-emerge. Can I get an Amen ?

Why you ask ?, Maths I tell you...

There are over 10 million people playing the most excellent MMO, World of Warcraft. A game which, after reading this rant you might think I would regard as the antichristic (is that a word ?) equivalent of MMO gaming. I regard WoW, having played it for about 2 years, as an unapolagetic and natural progrssion from the Warcraft license that Blizzard stayed totally true to, throughout the development, and there in lies the diamond of hope.

Blizzard did not have WoW to model WoW on when they made it. Like the designers of the games I listed in "The good" and the ones you guys will tell me or remind me about, Blizzard had a plan and they stuck to it!! Sure they knew the MMO genre from seeing other examples, they didnt invent MMO's, but they invented the first and most successful franchise based MMO (that I can think of) and they did it by sticking to their plan. They stayed true to the Warcraft graphics, which some still seem to regard as "cartoonish" or "poor quality", but I dont understand that because if you ever played Warcraft, you would know they couldnt look any other way. The plan... The plan...

My hope is, that as these 10 million gamers, who may have started with a simple but captivating product like WoW, will soon emerge from their mental slumber and begin to desire greater complexity. We will see the re-emergence of detailed and open ended games that provide many hundreds of hours of single and multiplayer enjoyment again. Because a massive new emerging market will demand it.

I dont regard myself as a glass half full person, I actually think that the direction games seem to be headed in right now may indeed me irreversible and that Street Fighter 15 with 2 new backgrounds and a new character will be a reality in 2012 and will sell a record amount of copies. I guess on the brightside that would mean that attention spans had obviously deteriorated to the point where commercials on TV would only be 3 seconds long.... hey Yahtzee gets away with it :)

So tell me, oh gaming public. Do you desire more ? or are you finding the deep sense of satisfaction in current games that you got from escaping from a PK in the first 12 months of UO ? or from getting that last piece of armour from Guk at the end of 36 hours of straight camping with no sleep....hmmm ?
 

TOGSolid

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I mostly agree, but speed runs of Fallout 1 and 2 were incredibly fun to do for laughs as well. Once you explored the world and played through it once, it was fun to see how fast you could shortcut everything and beat the game. Fallout 1 was especially easy to speed run in once you learned where the power armor was at.

I get on this rant also whenever the topic of Mass Effect or Oblivion gets brought up, but everyone just thinks I'm nuts for bagging on the 'best RPGs ever (lolwut?).'

The move to 'achievements' was a big milestone in the decline of intelligent gaming. Rather than letting gamers figure out cool things to do, they just gave them a list with some carrot on a stick awards. Gamers are increasingly becoming easy to amuse with silly collection based gameplay and pretty pictures.

EDIT:
or from getting that last piece of armour from Guk at the end of 36 hours of straight camping with no sleep....hmmm ?
This isn't deep gameplay, it's just fucking retarded collection based gaming addiction. Might want to work on your closing paragraph there.
 

Caimekaze

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If you want a more complex MMO, try Final Fantasy XI. It's the thunking man's MMO!

But seriously, it does rely more on cognitive process than what would be assumed.

I'm guessing JRPGs aren't your thing from your post, do to the lack of mention. It's a shame, as many of them have that deeper complexity you seem to crave, admittedly hidden behind the somewhat tedious manner of leveling.
 

ravensshade

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Mar 18, 2009
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deep..
but regarding
Razorback0z said:
are you finding the deep sense of satisfaction in current games that you got from escaping from a PK in the first 12 months of UO ? or from getting that last piece of armour from Guk at the end of 36 hours of straight camping with no sleep....hmmm ?
i don't know either of those since the only mmo's i have played are free ones

anyway on one side yes i desire more if i like a game i always desire more.
But at the same time for example fallout 3's vast world i hardly saw anything of it because i found the travelling to go to slow and either uneventfull or eventfull at the wrong moment (like when you're out of bullets) the fact that you could skip most of the mainstory in fallout 3 is amazing(ly bad). And after that narrative went out my desire to see the rest of the world (the boring trek since at the moment i unknowingly started final mission i had enough fire power so that monsters/encounters while travelling would be trivial.
to summarize it more content is nice but it should stay intriquing, challenging without meaning you have to reload 10 times just because you need that specific setup to beat something.
 

Agent Larkin

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You have got one good point there but generally I find that if you want realism and complex gameplay MMO's aren't your friend. RTS TBS generally are good for this I usually play RTS on my computer as I find it more challenging.
 

Razorback0z

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I definately like RTS and I also like FPS. Right now Im playing Project Reality for BF2, which is imporved dramatically by the level of team play you get in PR over BF2.

I also really enjoyed the Total War series, again mostly for the detail, which I think Shogun is still best of series in that context.

My point about EVE, EVE is not necessarily a great game for whats in it so much as for what goes on around it. If you want to see the best example of it, go read the Goonfleet recruiting stuff, its amazing how much of the game is played outside the framework of the game itself.
 

Grounogeos

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In LoZ, I couldn't count how many Magic Potions I used in the Oracle games, or how many Fairies I used in Ocarina of Time. Then, in Wind Waker, I only had to use ONE (on Ganondorf; but, if I faced him again, I probably wouldn't need it; the first time is because I didn't know wtf to do). Finally, Twilight Princess rolls around.... The only guys that were even remotely dangerous were the guy guarding the Ball and Chain and Ganondorf himself; the only time I used a Fairy was because I wanted to see if they brought back the thing where Link keels over and the Fairy flies out to bring him back to his feet.... they didn't....

They made the DS Pokemon games a lot easier, too. You still have the classic "6-Magikrap Fishermen", and the guys who keep moves like Defense Curl and Growl on their Pokemon (which they spam when they could easily be finishing you off). But they've added a new kind of fucktard to the mix: the guys who have their Pokemon use moves that their stats can't support (I pity every idiot who has a Kadabra that knows Psycho Cut...). Then again, they probably had to do that so people wouldn't suffer from the fucking XP gains (I'm not gonna spend 3 days grinding Graveller in Victory Road just to get my Pokemon high enough to take on Bertha! And what's the deal with making a 10-level difference between Aaron and Cynthia???).

At leaast the Metroid Prime series doesn't face the simplicity problem. I like having a game that can kick my ass every now and then (Hyper Mode... hardest game I've ever played right there...).
 

riskroWe

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Can't argue with economics. If cheap remakes sell, don't punish the game producers - educate the public.

Same thing people are trying to do with music, free-range eggs and solar power.
 

-Orpheus-

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In general I agree with what you are saying here. I have been gaming for twenty years or more and have often found myself disappointed when a game turns out to be all looks and no content. I guess it depends on how the game is sold in the first place. Warhawk, for example, on the PS3 was never sold as being complex; it has no single player mode and no story whatsoever. I have spent hours and hours on that game, not because of compexity of the game, but because of the complexity of the people you get to play against.

I appreciate I am off genre a bit here as you have been mostly talking MMOs but what I am basically saying is that a fairly basic game can be dramatically improved if there are plenty of competitive people playing it. Oh, and so long as it isn't mis sold in the first place, then no one gets disappointed.
 

Woem

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riskroWe said:
Can't argue with economics. If cheap remakes sell, don't punish the game producers - educate the public.
It looks like the public is doing just fine, confer the L4D2 rebellion. Although there's nothing wrong with sequels of course, I'd love to play a Planescape 2 or Arcanum 2. For all I care they could use the same engine and just add a completely new story and some new sprites. And I'm still waiting for Eschalon Book 2!
 

Credge

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TOGSolid said:
The move to 'achievements' was a big milestone in the decline of intelligent gaming.
I disagree entirely. The move to achievements wasn't anything other than a way for developers to squeeze out an extra bit of content from games that have very little content. See: Prince of Persia.

Achievements allowed developers to create shorter games. It has nothing to do with 'intelligent' gaming.

You can still do speed runs. Nobody is stopping you from trying to do what you did with Fallout 1 and 2 in other games.

The decline of 'intelligent' gaming started last gen when console FPS games started to become the norm.
 

crypt-creature

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Credge said:
TOGSolid said:
The move to 'achievements' was a big milestone in the decline of intelligent gaming.
I disagree entirely. The move to achievements wasn't anything other than a way for developers to squeeze out an extra bit of content from games that have very little content. See: Prince of Persia.

Achievements allowed developers to create shorter games. It has nothing to do with 'intelligent' gaming.

You can still do speed runs. Nobody is stopping you from trying to do what you did with Fallout 1 and 2 in other games.

The decline of 'intelligent' gaming started last gen when console FPS games started to become the norm.
It's kind of a double-whammy, the FPS becoming the 'norm' for 'intelligent gaming' and Achievements allowing a game to become shorter if the makers so desire.

It seems more likely that a game is going to have one or the other, heaven help the game who manages to have both.
 

Slash Dementia

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Couldn't have said it any better.
Games are getting to be too bland and easy. Some, which I find to be a good example of being simple and yet entertaining (to me or others) are games like UFC: Undisputed and Left 4 Dead, these just have the same things over and over, but they're extremely addicting.
I'd love games to come back the way they were before when developers would take risks and do something new.
 

Beltaine

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As a gamer who started on Atari and Commodore, and has played every MMORPG released since Ultima Online, I whole-heartedly agree with you.

Some of my best gaming memories are of UO and EQ1. Not because those games were really that outstanding (they were), but because people formed communities.

My guild in UO controlled a large village outside of Yew. We would hang around, train, blow each other up, roleplay in the tavern, mess around with PK's, and run the village shops by crafting and travelling around buying and reselling. If I played UO and never got involved with that group of people, I can't say I would have enjoyed it nearly as much. There were no NPC's with "!" floating above their heads to give you something to do. If you wanted something to do, you made it up.

EQ1 was more of the same. Being part of a great community made the game.

I play WoW now and float from guild to guild to find people to raid with. I float because the communities are so volatile that a guild of 300 people may be gone by next weekend because someone didn't get that new helmet they wanted in the raid on Wednesday night. MMORPG's used to be about getting together with other players and making communities to enjoy the sandbox provided to you by the game with those of like mind. I find myself playing WoW on and off as the only Multiplayer part of the the game seems to come in on Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday from 6-11pm when my current guild raids the latest instance. The rest of the time, the game is so full of quests and mindless achievements (fishing in the town fountain for a coin collection?) that it's just a single-player game 95% of the time. I have game consoles for single-player games.

I do wish for something to come along that's more satisfying and mature, but I'm afraid it's becoming more and more a pipe dream every day.

You can't go home again.
 

Fenixhart

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woem said:
riskroWe said:
Can't argue with economics. If cheap remakes sell, don't punish the game producers - educate the public.
It looks like the public is doing just fine, confer the L4D2 rebellion. Although there's nothing wrong with sequels of course, I'd love to play a Planescape 2 or Arcanum 2. For all I care they could use the same engine and just add a completely new story and some new sprites. And I'm still waiting for Eschalon Book 2!
L4D rebellion isn't educated public, it's incessant nerd-raging. The fact that they treid to boycott it suggests that they aren't enlightened to the fact that boycotting games is merely posturing and nothing more.
 

Razorback0z

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Beltaine said:
You can't go home again.
Ah the phrase I repeat to myself everytime I try. I played UO for almost 6 years. 2 accounts with GM everything and a castle, I really related strongly to your UO comments. I have tried to go back twice and the game as it was then..... its not there anymore.... sad...

I think someone needs to take some DNA from Garriot and Warren Spectre and maybe throw in a little Molyneaux for good measure, toss in some stem cells and clone a decent old school developer. Someone who is prepared to form a vision and see it to completion no matter how much prseesure to cut back on detail and release earlier, they get from the suits...

You may say Im a dreeeeeeeeeeamer....
But Im not the only one :)
 

quack35

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Fallout 3 had some pretty detailed locations and questlines, I'd put it on the "Ok" list.
 

Prons

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I find it bizarre you think Gta IV is simple and lacking depth, but you think the Sims is deep. I love the Sims 3, I think it's going to be one of the top 5 best games of this decade, but it is a casual game with no story and no set goals.
 

Headshot Gamer UK

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I think people are forgetting the fact that what looks good, sells, i.e, Bionic Commando looks good, but it has a dire storyline, this would not of occured 20 years ago, storylines were still considered a huge part of the game back then, but now, in some games at least, storylines seem to of been inserted somewhat grudgingly.
 

Andy_Panthro

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May 3, 2009
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The sheer cost of making a top game these days is part of the problem. With gaming being run as a business like never before, risks are taken few and far between. Profits must be maximised, and corners do get cut.

This has been increasing for a long time, and the volume of average games on the shelves is the evidence. If such mediocrity wasn't seemingly so profitable, we would see far more excellent games than we do at the moment.