How severely can a schoolteacher actually punish a student?

[Oly J]

Hi all, I'm just curious about something, from an early age we're conditioned to have a (hopefully) healthy fear of adults, particularly those in a position of some kind of authority, (at least that's the idea, there are always the unruly) and I'm curious how well-founded that fear was. Perhaps my experience isn't the most telling as I spent 16 of the first 18 years of my life at a "special school" for disabled people, (it would take me way too long to describe) but most of the students, right up until 16-18, whenever you chose to leave, seemed cowed by the teachers, when really as far as I saw the worst they could do is yell at you, give you homework they couldn't force you to do or detentions they couldn't force you to attend as they weren't allowed to physically prevent you from leaving the premises. I never questioned this while I was there, but for some reason I find myself wondering.

I wasn't a particularly bad kid, not a good student by any stretch of the imagination, I rarely did homework on time, and had a "bare minimum" philosophy toward most subjects, but that's the worst of it. I never got violent in any way, (at least from age 6 onward) rarely even had verbal problems with other kids. the only times I got in trouble were for aforementioned unfinished work and tardiness. (and once when I was 8 for having been caught making shit up about my family, and about my teachers to them...the one time my parents actually attended a conference)

My point being, as lazy a student I was, I never ended up too far into the doghouse as it were, but, while most of them were fair, a couple of teachers at my school had the occasional power trip. (I've had a lot of time to think about this, and I'm pretty sure giving someone a detention for using the word "stupid" in conversation falls into that category, as does giving a Muslim kid detention for not eating lunch despite repeated reminders that it was the month of Ramadan though I only heard about that one, didn't actually witness it so it may be an exaggeration. Interestingly, after leaving I heard the teacher in question was fired for being a member of the BNP, or at least that coming out coincided closely with him leaving)

I sometimes look back at situations like that and some others when I could've simply been a smartass, and wish I had more of a spine than I did and said something, but didn't for fear of getting into trouble, in a nutshell, my question is, had I been a bit more outspoken and disobedient, what is the worst that could've happened to me? What do teachers actually have with which to threaten their students proceeding under the assumption that detentions won't be attended and homework will remain undone?

for context where time is concerned I'll mention I left school in 2009

also for discussion value, where do you stand on such matters? Do kids have it too easy? I have a lot more respect for teachers now than I did then obviously, the years since leaving have given me a much larger perspective. On the other hand, you do hear about abusive teachers, and we all have that one teacher at school that seemed to have it out for us for some reason, so how much power should a teacher have?

 

[Thaluikhain]

No easy answer, I'd say.

OTOH, teachers need to be able to exercise authority over kids, but OTOH, I'd not actually trust most teachers to have much power over kids. There's a lot of remarkable rubbish teachers.

 

[FalloutJack]

Well, the ones that are spoiled brats and unrepentent bullies definitely need to be taken out of their comfort zone. They need a case of having control removed from them so they can understand the feelings they put others in. This is a case-by-case basis thing, but the kids that are properly rotten need to be shaped up or shipped out.

 

[Avnger]

Are we talking legally here? Because (in the US) the Supreme Court has made a number of rulings considering this topic. Teachers and school administrators actually have the right to use physical violence to compel a student to behave in class[footnote]http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/school_law/2008/06/the_supreme_court_and_corporal.html[/footnote][footnote]http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/school_law/2008/06/supreme_court_declines_appeals.html[/footnote]. Some states (22 according to that site) have outright banned it by law, but the majority of them still allow it.

The question is what would the reaction be if an instance occurred? It would probably become some kind of media frenzy and would end badly for the teacher/admin.

 

[Nuuu]

Physical punishment aside, the worst a teacher could do is detention or dropping your grades, anything more than that usually requires action from the head office / principle.
I remember the private school I went to for 2 years had two forms of detention: Academic and Disciplinary.
Academic detentions were a bit common and given out for failing to turn in homework. You would stay after school either until you finished the work or until the teacher decided you stayed long enough (depending on who you got stuck with)
Disciplinary, on the other hand, were strictly for students seriously misbehaving. They were rarely handed out, but if you got one, it meant staying an hour or two after school running laps and other exhausting forms of exercise.

I don't think kids have it too easy, school sucks and kids are awful en masse. The other problem is that people think the only way to discipline is to punish. Punishment works on some and only for certain actions. There are some kids that need help more than discipline.

 

[Belaam]

Teacher here.

As others have said, depends a lot on the state and what parents have signed off on. That's why some of those gay conversions schools can pretty much flat out abuse the kids and not much happens. Private schools often a lot more ability for physical punishment.

But really, what teachers can get away with is probably largely dictated by whether or not someone complains. We had some Native American students who didn't want to say the pledge and got detention for a while until someone pointed out that was illegal. It was pretty awkward because someone mentioned it and the Principal was like, "Yeah, they have detention from the beginning of class until after the pledge every day" and about 3/4 of the teachers responded, "Um, that's completely illegal and isn't part of your job as an administrator to know the law better than we do? How do you not know that?"

Where I teach now, there's pretty much nothing. I know one teacher that fires nerf darts at students who fall asleep or are looking at their phones, but I can't think of another teacher who does anything close.

I went to school in England, but my teachers weren't able use physical force. They were only allowed to put us in detention. Even then, they couldn't exactly force us to go. We'd just get letters home.

Wait, what?

In 3rd grade (early 80s), I had an Exchange Teacher where the usual teacher went to England and we had a British teacher instead. He tormented us a good bit, though mostly things like throwing chalk or his shoes (he threw coffee mugs like twice, but they broke so he stopped) at us if we got out of our desks when we weren't supposed to. We had those desks where you open up the writing surface and books and stuff are inside and once, when a kid was messing around in the desk, the teacher walked up and put his foot on the desktop, trapping the kid's head inside. The kid flailed around and cried for a bit until the teacher let him out. Oh, and I seem to recall him picking up a kid by the jacket once and slamming him against the wall. Oh, and he probably broke a wooden yardstick over someone's desk a couple of times a month. But none of us really thought it was an issue because he always just said it was what he did in England, so I don't think anyone ever reported it.

Now I'm wondering if he just made up that that was what schools in England were like so he could do whatever he wanted.

Additional fun: instead of teaching us handwriting, he taught us about the bubonic plague and had us put on a play about Sherlock Holmes solving a murder (I was Holmes). Oh, and after his birthday, he showed us photos of a cake his friends got him, which was in the shape of a naked women with pink frosting plus some chocolate bits for nipples and pubic hair. I really didn't learn much from the 3rd grade curriculum, but it was still an educational year.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I mean in my school, thered really be no point to the physical force. If you were a problem and they didn't want you there they could very easily just make your life hell with backpack checks or whatever until they found what they needed to send you to the school for delinquent kids or whatever. There was a random bag day and I saw pretty much a principal ruin a year of a fellow students life, a childhood friend of mine, because he found a hunting blade in the bags pocket. And me knowing that kid, he wasn't being an asshole or malicious I totally believe him that he went camping that weekend and totally forgot about it.

Basically there was always a very Teachers/Faculty are always right, students are always wrong mentality.... I mean I know looking back little shit like I got in trouble for was minor, but it framed enough of my world view that I deeply resent anyone that tries to have that kind of power over me.

Also makes me kind of hate teachers in general, which is a shame cause I love learning these days... but when I get signed out legally by parents and they tell me they have no record of it and I'm getting detention and its not up for debate.... If I ever have children, probably wont, I'm going to make every effort to fuck with the school system and their teachers that I can. No one was there to speak for me and call these people out when I was a kid, that's damn sure not happening to my kid now that I'm the adult.

And keep in mind that the teachers in my neck in the woods are like one of the rare few parts of the country that are paid well... so... if you're going to feel bad for them, don't. They're doing just fine.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Yeah physical punishment is a no-no here in the EU, and thank goodness for that. Outdated nonsense that is.

What they can do? Detention and expulsion. And that's fine. I don't think kids these days have it too easy. If anything there's way more expected of them than ever before. Not as such by teachers, if anything teachers these day give a...weary vibe, but by parents. School, practices of this and that, homework. Go watch Trophy Kids as an illustration.

As for teachers, well they do deserve more respect in most countries. They're as crucial in a person's life as a doctor or fireman is yet they don't even remotely get the same amount of respect. Underpaid, overworked and underappreciated. That's what becoming a teacher means in way too many countries. They deserve so much more.

from an early age we're conditioned to have a (hopefully) healthy fear of adults, particularly those in a position of some kind of authority

Scuzemewhatnow? What is this, the 1950's? There's nothing healthy about that.

I know one teacher that fires nerf darts at students who fall asleep or are looking at their phones

Oh that's hardly abuse, that's just funny.

 

[Leg End]

OP, your post feels scrambled to me so I'm going to make as much discussion out of it in my head as I can.

also for discussion value, where do you stand on such matters? Do kids have it too easy?

I think considering the age we live in, kids have it a bit too hard. Age of every school official being on edge about shooters and High Schools doing searches and raids on lockers and students, it exposes public schools for what they are: Day Prisons.

I have a lot more respect for teachers now than I did then obviously, the years since leaving have given me a much larger perspective. On the other hand, you do hear about abusive teachers, and we all have that one teacher at school that seemed to have it out for us for some reason, so how much power should a teacher have?

To teach and maintain basic order in the classroom, which should extend as far as having kids leave the room to continue class if it becomes necessary.

I mean in my school, thered really be no point to the physical force. If you were a problem and they didn't want you there they could very easily just make your life hell with backpack checks or whatever until they found what they needed to send you to the school for delinquent kids or whatever. There was a random bag day and I saw pretty much a principal ruin a year of a fellow students life, a childhood friend of mine, because he found a hunting blade in the bags pocket. And me knowing that kid, he wasn't being an asshole or malicious I totally believe him that he went camping that weekend and totally forgot about it.

To think there were days when schools had Rifle Teams and no one raised alarms about it.

Basically there was always a very Teachers/Faculty are always right, students are always wrong mentality.... I mean I know looking back little shit like I got in trouble for was minor, but it framed enough of my world view that I deeply resent anyone that tries to have that kind of power over me.

Pretty much goes with the job. People who like power will want a job that gets them power. Sad really.

Also makes me kind of hate teachers in general, which is a shame cause I love learning these days... but when I get signed out legally by parents and they tell me they have no record of it and I'm getting detention and its not up for debate.... If I ever have children, probably wont, I'm going to make every effort to fuck with the school system and their teachers that I can. No one was there to speak for me and call these people out when I was a kid, that's damn sure not happening to my kid now that I'm the adult.

Ding the exact same but with a high chance of just private/homeschooling them, because public schools are very much hell.

Where I teach now, there's pretty much nothing. I know one teacher that fires nerf darts at students who fall asleep or are looking at their phones, but I can't think of another teacher who does anything close.

If I ever become a teacher, I'm totally getting a cabinet of Nerf firepower and pulling out something new every little while.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

Wait, what?

In 3rd grade (early 80s), I had an Exchange Teacher where *SNIP*

There's your problem. Corporal punishment wasn't outlawed until 1986 and awareness and application of childrens rights/ the law wasn't really so much applied, plus changing attitudes of society in general. Far more likely these days for a kid to report something like that, certainly once you got to the early 90's that was getting pretty unacceptable unless it was a really rough school.
I'm sure there's shit you could get away with in the early 80's in the US that wouldn't fly now.

 

[Parasondox]

Bring back the whip and cane I say. Nah, I am kidding (not kidding)

In the UK? Detention, a letter home. Due to a lot of cases involving kids and teachers in a distasteful manner, teachers can't even physically break up a fight. Certain school rules.

 

[Callate]

It varies widely. My wife and I just learned that parents in Iceland caught using corporal punishment on their children can be imprisoned.

At one school I attended, they were considering whether to have a policy allowing it or not shortly before I left, but my understanding was that they would need a signed consent form if they actually wanted to punish a child so.

Public and private schools may even have different standards, if allowed by law.

Detention, suspension, and expulsion are allowed in most places, so far as I know, though there may be limits as to how long a school can keep a child or enforce absence.

 

[kaizen2468]

Removal from class and a letter from the school to the parents. If they cannot remedy the problem verbally, it's the parents job to discipline the child and have them ready for school.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Depends how much can't be proven in court.

...

*Passing Tumbleweed*

Errm...anyway, kids and students would frighten me too much to teach them. Such judgemental creatures. I would have to utilise some Clockwork Orange-esque conditioning to keep a stable, docile class. Seems ethical enough to me!

 

[McElroy]

Here you can only request kids to not play on their phones if they do it without distracting others. It's also forbidden to remove a kid from the classroom unless they continue to distract others. Physical contact gets a teacher in trouble unless it is to break a dangerous situation. The teacher just has to out-manipulate the tougher cases to get them to play along. My parents are teachers and my sister is a soon-to-be, so I hear a lot of these stories.

 

[hermajesty]

Crazy to think that kids in the 50s and 60s would be caned for misbehaving. Imagine that now!

 

[RaikuFA]

While I think a lot of kids deserve a good old beating I know a lot of teacher will use it to abuse their power. I know teachers get off on letting their students get hurt.

Fuck kids that think it's funny to cause pain and suffering to other kids and fuck teaches for allowing it to happen.