How Would You Build Better Side Quests In Games?

[cojo965]

I have thought about making this thread for quite a while and finally decided to stop pussyfooting around it and just do it.

What buggs me about RPGs is what I call "polite villain syndrome". It never matters to these fuckers how evil they're supposed to be, they will always be polite enough to wait for you to finish up whatever side quests you have no matter how many you have or how long they take. They're like fucking Garland in 8 Bit Theater, never moving their evil plot forward unless you specifically ask them to by showing up to every step of it. It drives me nuts because it leaves me feeling compelled to do ALL the side quests before moving onto the next story quest with Dragon Age Inquisition remaining unfinished for this reason. So how would I fix this?

The easiest way would be to just reduce the amount of side quests but I like the thing Persona had going. Basically there is a time limit to do the next story mission or get a game over, insuring that you manage your time wisely to get the most out of the side quests. So I would appreciate something similar to that to keep the plot moving so I don't overplay the game and get bored before finishing the story.

Failing that, tie the side quests into the main plot. Dragon's Dogma is a game I appreciated for this reason on top of having plenty of "I didn't know I could do that" moments. I'm going to have to spoil the main plot point of the game so click the Spoiler Tag below to find out why.

Spoiler

The main villain actually is waiting for you, and the side quests are dealing with the shit that cropped up in the aftermath. It's not just monster killing either. While you certainly do plenty of that, you also deal with cults, corrupt businesses trying to use the disaster to further their own ends, and rescuing particularly daft villagers. It all ties back to the main plot with the dragon because it wants you to be as prepared as possible for the potential confrontation. That's also a big thing about the side quests in Dragon's Dogma, they subvert what you think you know about the dragon, namely for the incarnation of ultimate evil, it seems awfully uninvolved with the bad stuff happening.

So, how would you build better side quests?

 

[Saelune]

Make the plot make sense for you to be dicking around. Its something I have been figuring out as I DM campaigns in DnD. Too many of my plots make no sense to dick around with, so I have been trying to make plots that allow for more wasting time.

Part of it is just well, a time limit. It really depends on the intent of the game. Maybe after a certain point something stops waiting and comes for you, like it or not. Others is making it not imperative you do it right now.

Thats the difference between say, Fallout 3 and Fallout 4. In 3 you start off with a missing father. Hes an adult who can take care of themselves and left on their own accord. You have to escape the vault, but you dont have to find your dad. Maybe you hate him and rather not find him. Its up to you to decide how important it is.

In 4 though, your infant baby is taken from you. If you dont immediately go save it, you're a shitty parent, and thats why people are not happy with the plot mainly. I know my first playthrough, I rushed through until I got to a point where I felt it made sense for me to not rush.

Morrowind is another game in a Bethesda series where they sort of lost touch with the right idea. The plot is not presented as a MUST DO NOW thing, and constantly the game is like "Man, things are kinda shitty cause of the plot, right?" ie the blight and the creeping spread of Dagoth Ur's influence.

However armies of demons (Oblivion) and Dragons (Skyrim) shouldnt really be waiting for you to do a thing before unleashing their havoc.

(Arena and Daggerfall also had reasonable plots that dont rush you too much either)

Edit: Since it might come up, Fallout 1 (pre-Bethesda) had a time limit to make sense, since the remaining water wont last forever. Playing it certainly has the time limit nagging me as I meander around some ruined vault or bandit camp. Certainly a different feeling than playing Fallout 3.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Pace things. In my experience, I want to do a lot of side quests early on, but my patience begins wearing thing towards the end of the game unless it is really, really good. The game doesn't have to start with the world ending. You can build into it and start minimizing the side quests later on. And when absolutely necessary, put a time limit. If the story talks about how enemies are invading a farming village and you absolutely must reach it to save the lord's life, absolutely do not give a ton of time for side quests. You can get back to infinite time when the enemy is contextually less interested in slaughter.

After that, consider ways to make the side quests feel like a part of the main quest. In my opinion, BioWare has been doing a good job of this lately. In Dragon Age 2, you're trying to earn money in Act 1. In Mass Effect 3 and Inquisition, you're building a force up. Dragon Age 2 also did a good job of letting side quests play to multi-Act sub plots that themselves coincided with the themes and narrative of the main plot. It felt cohesive, rather than disjointedly bloated. Whether this was intended or a side effect of the resource limitations doesn't matter.

 

[chrissx2]

Make them affect the world and main quest line in non-schematic way (unlike all ubisoft games). I don't want to do 50 similar quest that rewards you with some reputation points that unlocks extra supply crate somewhere at the end of the game. I want each of the side-quests to have meaning. If I help a farmer, he would be able to supply troops in battle making them stronger and my work easier. Help a noble and he will unlock for you new way to get pass the city guards. Protect a merchant and he will unlock some secret meeting place where you can buy rare items etc.

 

[The Madman]

Make them affect the world and main quest line in non-schematic way (unlike all ubisoft games). I don't want to do 50 similar quest that rewards you with some reputation points that unlocks extra supply crate somewhere at the end of the game. I want each of the side-quests to have meaning. If I help a farmer, he would be able to supply troops in battle making them stronger and my work easier. Help a noble and he will unlock for you new way to get pass the city guards. Protect a merchant and he will unlock some secret meeting place where you can buy rare items etc.

See, I disagree about that. Some of the best rpg ever made, games like Baldur's Gate 2 or Planescape Torment, had plenty of side quests which were completely self-contained and irrelevant to the main plot. Little mini-adventures with their own characters, locations, and storytelling twists and turns. The thing is however that both games gave good narrative reasons for why the main protagonist would have time to be wandering off and doing these things, so it never felt disingenuous that we're not immediately pursuing the main plot and instead have time for these little standalone stories between bouts of continuing the main overarching story.

Hell, in both the games mentioned above those side-quests are some of the best parts of the game. Firkraag in BG2 or the Circle of Zerthimon in PST stand out as great examples. I think the key is just to craft the main story in such a way that you're able to have these awesome episodic side-quests without it feeling weird or out of place.

 

[SweetShark]

Now this is one extra reason to tell to others why I love Persona games.

OP:
I guess you make a villain who isn't plotting to destroy the world? Like, a mafia organisation just doing businesses while you can d*ck around as much as you like.
Maybe later in the game when the cillain is aware of you and ypu don't do much to foward the plot, to sent his goons to kill you several times until the Boss decide "F*ck it!!! SEND ALL THE MEMBERS TO SLAUGHER THESE BASTARDS!!!"

 

[Kyrian007]

Thats the difference between say, Fallout 3 and Fallout 4. In 3 you start off with a missing father. Hes an adult who can take care of themselves and left on their own accord. You have to escape the vault, but you dont have to find your dad. Maybe you hate him and rather not find him. Its up to you to decide how important it is.

In 4 though, your infant baby is taken from you. If you dont immediately go save it, you're a shitty parent, and thats why people are not happy with the plot mainly. I know my first playthrough, I rushed through until I got to a point where I felt it made sense for me to not rush.

It's kind of bizarre but I had exactly the opposite reaction. In FO 3 it seemed as I went straight from megaton, to underground, to GNR... I blazed into the main quest because it seemed like missing dad was always just right around the next corner. After all it didn't seem like I left too long after he did.

FO 4's missing kid, I'd have done the "good parent" thing and blasted right into the main quest... but I had no leads. Only the ramblings of a senile drug addict who OD'd after I gave her a few chems, so I paid her senile drug induced ramblings no mind.

Spoiler

And I never figured out why they assumed I wouldn't get it had been years since the kidnapping. Right out of the vault I assumed that I didn't know how much time had passed.

It seemed to me building a support network out of the minutemen would help me the most and so that's what I did, trusting that whomever had the baby wanted him alive and I'd need support to retrieve him. I owned huge settlements all over the commonwealth before I even went into Boston proper.

As far as making sidequests better. A couple of things. First don't make them "walk up and ask" like radiant quests in Skyrim and FO 3 seem to be. Just kind of randomize their availability and what kind of quest it is so that you don't always get "put a thing" quests from Tinker Tom and "get some tech" quests from what's her name in the BoS. And a little harder to implement idea... try and add in something similar to the nemesis system from Shadow of Mordor. Re-occurring generated mini-bosses... could liven up the equation.

 

[happyninja42]

I would take a lot of tips from Mankind Divided actually. The side quests in that game, the "Point of Interest" stories, were some of the most interesting mini-story arcs in the entire game. Just because it's a short arc, doesn't mean it can't be compelling.

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Make them unique and rewarding. That's about it really.

Currently enjoying SMTIV: Apocalypse and just like the previous game, all side quests are automatically sent to your summoning device the second you are eligible for it. The goals, location, purpose and rewards are clearly stated along with a difficulty rating out of 7, and they don't require you to go back to a quest giver at any point. Better in fact, because while there are still a few collection quests, they have much better drop rates than the previous game, and the demon type you have to kill for it is actually displayed on the map.

It should feel like you haven't yet seen all that the game has to offer if you haven't tried all of the sidequests, whether it's a boss, area, character or weapon.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Side quests need to be SUBSTANTIVE. Are you listening, Ubisoft?? I understand the main quests will always be the focus, but if you?re going to give us other stuff to do, put some meat on those goddamn bones! Over the years, I?ve collected enough flags, audio logs and crafting items to open a dozen do-it-yourself Smithsonians. If I had a dollar for every able-bodied NPC that is apparently too lazy to cross an open-world map and get/kill/follow/race/steal from some other equally able-bodied NPC, I could diamond-encrust the outside of each of those Smithsonians mentioned in the last sentence. And fetch quests? FUCK fetch quests; get that shit yourself.

No, side quests need to ADD to the game, not distract from it or simply protract it. You don?t have a ?10 hour long game? if I can run through the main story in 4, and the other 6 are spent trying to attain an arbitrary 100% completion, collecting shit and shutting up dozens of lazy-ass NPCs spread around the world with exclamation points hovering over their heads. Morrowind did this best, IMHO. You could dump a hundred hours into the side quests before even beginning the main quest. Be it Guilds to rank up in, Houses rise to power within, strongholds to build, unique weapons or armor to obtain etc., Morrowind made everything outside of the main quest feel like a separate main quest unto itself with amazing rewards and feeling of accomplishment to make side questing worthwhile. I think Deus Ex: Human Revolution did it pretty well as well; maybe not as long or deep as those in Morrowind, but still, it felt like when I stepped away from the main quest, what I was doing had weight.

Morrowind is another game in a Bethesda series where they sort of lost touch with the right idea. The plot is not presented as a MUST DO NOW thing, and constantly the game is like "Man, things are kinda shitty cause of the plot, right?" ie the blight and the creeping spread of Dagoth Ur's influence.

See, I?ll disagree there; I think they nailed the pacing, almost like a corrupt government wouldn?t take notice of an underground uprising until they stormed the gates. Granted, it?s been a while since I play through Morrowind, but as I recall, Dagoth Ur?s plot was not necessarily immediate; he was gaining strength and preparing for his re-emergence and you, the prophesized Nerevarine, had no idea who you were, just showed up on boat on some sort of work-release program. It made sense that the bad guy, having no sight on the Nerevarine, would pace his plotting while some random guy ran around heading up guilds, becoming Hortator, and 200 hundred in-game hours later, ?Oh shit, when did you get here?!? I?m in my underwear getting ready for some Mayan cosplay and? is that Keaning AND Sunder?!? Goddamn it, stop beating up my giant robot!!! Your?e a dick!!!?

 

[Cycloptomese]

I'm playing through The Witcher 3 right now and I'm very impressed with the side quests. Some of them seem more interesting than the main quest. Although, it doesn't seem to take care of the problem of main quest urgency. There's just a lot of really good side quests in there. The map does get kind of mucked up with "points of interest", but there always seems to be something worthwhile at the points of interest. I've found loads of crafting diagrams, rare ingredients, and even ability points.

 

[chrissx2]

Make them affect the world and main quest line in non-schematic way (unlike all ubisoft games). I don't want to do 50 similar quest that rewards you with some reputation points that unlocks extra supply crate somewhere at the end of the game. I want each of the side-quests to have meaning. If I help a farmer, he would be able to supply troops in battle making them stronger and my work easier. Help a noble and he will unlock for you new way to get pass the city guards. Protect a merchant and he will unlock some secret meeting place where you can buy rare items etc.

See, I disagree about that. Some of the best rpg ever made, games like Baldur's Gate 2 or Planescape Torment, had plenty of side quests which were completely self-contained and irrelevant to the main plot. Little mini-adventures with their own characters, locations, and storytelling twists and turns. The thing is however that both games gave good narrative reasons for why the main protagonist would have time to be wandering off and doing these things, so it never felt disingenuous that we're not immediately pursuing the main plot and instead have time for these little standalone stories between bouts of continuing the main overarching story.

Hell, in both the games mentioned above those side-quests are some of the best parts of the game. Firkraag in BG2 or the Circle of Zerthimon in PST stand out as great examples. I think the key is just to craft the main story in such a way that you're able to have these awesome episodic side-quests without it feeling weird or out of place.

I completely agree with you when it comes to the bigger side-quest lines. I had those small 1-2 tasks type of quests in mind that are mostly plagueing MMORPG's. I also said that they should affact the world and not exclusively the main quest. Finishing a side-quest should give you some visual and mechanical feedback/reward - you know, like a mood of the location, characters behavior etc.

 

[Bad Jim]

What bugs me about RPGs is what I call "polite villain syndrome".~snip~ So how would I fix this?

Personally I don't regard this as a thing worth fixing. No-one likes time limits. The original Fallout gave you 500 days to finish the main quest. People complained, it got patched out (well, extended to 13 years). It wasn't even all that harsh, as I've done all quests(that aren't mutually exclusive) in about 250 days. Though you still have to get the water chip within 150 days and get to Necropolis within 110 days if you want to do all the quests there.

It's nice if you can address the issue without actually having a real time limit, like in Majora's Mask, but generally I think it falls under 'willing suspension of disbelief'. People would rather the world destroying meteoroid hang in the air while they play the fishing minigame, so they are willing to ignore how ridiculous that is.

I can offer no cure to your compulsion to play all the sidequests.

 

[Kerg3927]

The easiest way would be to just reduce the amount of side quests...

Sometimes the obvious answer is the best answer. Any other solution is just putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

RPG's used to not have so many side quests. But ever since Skyrim, the AAA devs have been embroiled in a nonsensical arms race to see who can produce the largest and most bloated games possible, and they try to outdo each other with every new release so they can brag about how big the game is in their marketing. It's insanity.

Go back to the way things were. Make reasonably-sized, high quality games instead of bloated, watered down ones. Reduce the number of side quests, particularly boring fetch quests that are just there for filler. Make the maps smaller so there is no NEED for so much filler. Finish development of the game earlier, and move on to the next one. Produce more games with the same resources and time investment and make more money. Gamers spend less time slogging through boring filler content. More money for them, less boredom for us. Everybody wins.

These companies need to pay more attention to Dark Souls. From Software has not been afraid to use crafty level design and artificial confinement to keep their maps from becoming too big and bloated and boring. The result is dense, fun gameplay that never feels like a slog or busywork. Devs need to get over their stark fear of getting the dreaded "linear" label. Confinement can be a wonderful thing.

 

[Rangaman]

Quality over quantity. This is why I liked The Witcher 3. It still has a lot of quests, mind. But it doesn't focus so much on the number, more on the story of them. And how nearly all of them have consequences.

Spoiler

Like how early on, when you give the dying girl a potion, then find out later that she's now a vegetable.

On the subject of main questlines, Majora's Mask is a good example of how to keep the main questline central. The only problem with that is that the side quests reset themselves.

 

[cojo965]

I'm honestly getting kind of tired of quests in general. I guess I'm spoiled by Souls where the whole game is a quest to do as you please, with the main thread just dangling for you to grab whenever it fancies your interest.

But if there has to be quests, then make them more intrinsic to the game so that you actually care about completing them. Make them rewarding, and as varied as possible with interesting challenges. The most important aspect is the player being able to put themselves in the shoes of the character, and enjoy being there even through the bad stuff.

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

It's simple. I don't have that much to add to many games that get it right (like the Witcher 3), but there are only 2 real criteria for good sidequests in my book.

1) Make them interesting, support either the main plot or the character's interest, development, or fleshing out the world/storyline in a meaningful way. Witcher 3 monster hunts are what he's all about, and the tracking and unraveling of the background story of the monsters and their victims always felt very detective-esque and interesting. The rest are more loot hunting, and are good too as long as things weren't hidden in a ridiculous manner.

OR

2) Just make them fun. And not repetitive. Saints Row games for example just make them as ludicrous as possible, driving around setting shit on fire, spraying shit on people's houses, or getting yourself rammed and air-juggled by as many vehicles as you can. Some of these were dumb as hell, yes, but most of them were fun, at least the first time. Climbing radio towers gets old kinda quick, but at least they didn't take all that long. Overtaking outpost was pretty much the meat of Far Cry games, and I did that happily more than the main game missions.

 

[Dalisclock]

I'm playing through The Witcher 3 right now and I'm very impressed with the side quests. Some of them seem more interesting than the main quest. Although, it doesn't seem to take care of the problem of main quest urgency. There's just a lot of really good side quests in there. The map does get kind of mucked up with "points of interest", but there always seems to be something worthwhile at the points of interest. I've found loads of crafting diagrams, rare ingredients, and even ability points.

Playing Witcher 3 for the first time, and while I totally agree on the side quests being done right(which is one of the reasons I'm incredibly overpowered for the main questline), I haven't really seen the main quest as that urgent. Sure, I wanted to find Ciri, but it became obvious pretty quick that no matter what, you'd always be days, if not weeks behind her. The hunt can show up wherever they want with seemingly a few moments notice and the front has stabilized so the war's not going to progress anytime soon.

Especially in Novigrad where you have to spend a while bailing out dandelions sorry ass to get any idea where she went next. I figured if that's the case, I can dick around as much as I want, because Ciri ain't gonna be on the next place I check either. At least not until a certain point, when the game makes it really obvious you're about to cross a point of no return.

 

[Smooth Operator]

They need to not look mechanical, you don't want to see an imaginary "person" as a collection of triangles, path following and sound clips, you want all that shit to get blended/hidden well enough so the person is at least somewhat believable.
Same goes for all other parts of the game, the moment your quest appears to just fit into a pre-existing type you broke our game world, now we are doing some mechanical BS because the game demands it not because some person is actually in trouble.

I don't have a universal formula for how to get it done, but doing story related stuff has usually been pretty good, i.e. instead of random granny wanting 10 bear asses you get a side character with a side mission that fits them.