I don't like the idea of importing to get around localization issues

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gyrobot_v1legacy

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There I said it.

Ok, so why do I hate it so much? I will tell you a story.

Yakuza held a special place in my heart, it was one of those niche Japanese games that you could really get behind and enjoy as it was different from what you expect from Japanese gaming at the time. It was a solid setting with likable characters and a respect for the foreign audience that demonstrates the face driven culture of Japanese society. Unlike it's niche rival compile heart, it didn't insult reviewers with a setting that came straight out of an 16 year old chuuni's basement and instead was a crime drama with enough over the top elements to keep the player entertainment. I loved the series to death.

Then came Yakuza 5 and the refusal to localize the game, I was heartbroken by the announcement. Why does a great Japanese game like Yakuza 5 doesn't get localized while the annual slop that is CH keeps coming over for an audience that cares little for quality and only cares if there are fanservice cheesecake and waifu pandering. Top that with letter writing campaigns for a good JRPG and it seems like it is a shit show where you are actively punished for liking good games.

Then the whole shitstorm between the press and gamers happened and suddenly the tables are turned, Yakuza 5 and Zero finally get their long awaited release while CH suddenly takes a 180 in localization priorities, as if their long rap sheet has finally bit them in the ass with a passive aggressive notice on how they will maintain "quality control" by not localizing games that requires censorship (aka stop giving us panty quests that will get a shitty rating and cost people their jobs for defending it). Suddenly the CH audience comes out of the woodwork crying about how their games are taken away and while I was forced to bite my tongue when I was the one suffering. They only got lashed harder when censorship for Japanese localizations became more common to keep the press pleased and they go and begin asking for Playasia to save them from their wretched situation they had created.

Importing a game does not actively support a series, it is saying you are desperate enough to go to any lengths to get the game.

It is like a customer who had been banned from the restaurant because of a fussy eater causing drama paying the dishwasher to bring a meal to them with them paying a premium for it. You are not supporting the business, you are asking for the grey market to help you. It doesn't help your friends who had been banned from the restaurants who wanted to go to the place so badly but can't. This is the behavior that importers are supporting. They are not supporting a business, they are only making them more likely to isolate potential customers and when they can't get what they want, they leave and look elsewhere.

I am the customer who got alienated and the importers are only making it worse.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Importing is a way around localization issues, but I don't actually see a way around it. I would love to play DDO and I can with a prox, but I wouldn't be able to support the game doing that. It also wouldn't encourage the publisher to release the game in the US.
 

NPC009

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I don't really have anything against Compile Heart. I mean, just because I'm not getting the games I want doesn't mean other people shouldn't get the games they're interested in. That said, the sad reality is that many good games are in the hands of bad companies. (And some good but small companies are stuck with low hanging fruit like Compile Heart games.) Sega has an absolute shit record when it comes to localising games, not to mention the whole Atlus problem Europeans are facing right now. And yeah, it's pretty frustrating that some people are just now noticing how bad things can truly be (as in: games don't get localised at all). Kinda feels like they've been spoiled and are now throwing a tantrum...

They only got lashed harder when censorship for Japanese localizations became more common to keep the press pleased and they go and begin asking for Playasia to save them from their wretched situation they had created.
I'm not sure the 'censoring to keep the press happy' thing actually ever happened. I mean, in my reviews I call companies out for tone-deaf fanservice all the time, but this is not a call for censorship. If publishers edit games to avoid such criticism, that's their business.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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NPC009 said:
I don't really have anything against Compile Heart. I mean, just because I'm not getting the games I want doesn't mean other people shouldn't get the games they're interested in. That said, the sad reality is that many good games are in the hands of bad companies. (And some good but small companies are stuck with low hanging fruit like Compile Heart games.) Sega has an absolute shit record when it comes to localising games, not to mention the whole Atlus problem Europeans are facing right now. And yeah, it's pretty frustrating that some people are just now noticing how bad things can truly be (as in: games don't get localised at all). Kinda feels like they've been spoiled and are now throwing a tantrum...

They only got lashed harder when censorship for Japanese localizations became more common to keep the press pleased and they go and begin asking for Playasia to save them from their wretched situation they had created.
I'm not sure the 'censoring to keep the press happy' thing actually ever happened. I mean, in my reviews I call companies out for tone-deaf fanservice all the time, but this is not a call for censorship. If publishers edit games to avoid such criticism, that's their business.
If we have to give up criticism to bring up localization chances, then it is not a fair price to pay. It wouldn't be worth it. I also doubt that it is a real big issue in the process.
 

Saelune

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Why did you have to "bite your tongue" over Yakuza 5 not getting an initial localization? Cause...you could have complained.

Personally, Id think importing would actually make Japanese devs more likely to localize. It shows that there is an audience in other places. More so for games that usually aren't localized, not sure about games that no longer get localized.

I also don't see why you consider SEGA and Compile Heart as rivals.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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Saelune said:
Why did you have to "bite your tongue" over Yakuza 5 not getting an initial localization? Cause...you could have complained.

Personally, Id think importing would actually make Japanese devs more likely to localize. It shows that there is an audience in other places. More so for games that usually aren't localized, not sure about games that no longer get localized.

I also don't see why you consider SEGA and Compile Heart as rivals.
When I said how companies like CH makes SEGA feel nervous about localization because of how they ruin people's perception of Japanese games I got shouted down.

When they are suffering from a localization drought and I told them they got what they deserved they gave the scarlet letter of beign a SJW Cuckold.
 

NPC009

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gyrobot said:
When I said how companies like CH makes SEGA feel nervous about localization because of how they ruin people's perception of Japanese games I got shouted down.

When they are suffering from a localization drought and I told them they got what they deserved they gave the scarlet letter of beign a SJW Cuckold.
Eh, Sega was very fond of not localising games long before Compile Heart got a (tiny) food in the door outside of Japan. Ask any Shining Force fan.

You're seeing connections that aren't there.
 

Erttheking

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gyrobot said:
a SJW Cuckold.
http://media0.giphy.com/media/4pMX5rJ4PYAEM/giphy.gif

OT: In-between misuse of the word censorship, blowing out of proportion the influence media actually has on gaming, and ignoring that plenty of racy stuff still comes out of Japan with no fuss, I still hold my old views on the matter.

If you're trying to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one. Publishers should have a spine and release the games they want to release. VA-11 Hall-A did just freaking fine and it's up to its neck in Japanese weirdness, even if it's not from Japan. If publishers are too spineless to take a chance then I don't feel sorry for them. Nearly every major game release nowadays gets backlash in some form of another, yet that doesn't stop them from releasing their games.

I'm sorry that you're not getting some of the games you like, but I'm not going to apologize for the actions of cowardly publishers.
 

CritialGaming

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erttheking said:
OT: In-between misuse of the word censorship, blowing out of proportion the influence media actually has on gaming, and ignoring that plenty of racy stuff still comes out of Japan with no fuss, I still hold my old views on the matter.

If you're trying to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one. Publishers should have a spine and release the games they want to release. VA-11 Hall-A did just freaking fine and it's up to its neck in Japanese weirdness, even if it's not from Japan. If publishers are too spineless to take a chance then I don't feel sorry for them. Nearly every major game release nowadays gets backlash in some form of another, yet that doesn't stop them from releasing their games.

I'm sorry that you're not getting some of the games you like, but I'm not going to apologize for the actions of cowardly publishers.
The biggest problem is that many games don't get rated the same way by the ESRB. So a harem-anime RPG like Moe Chronicles, where you "touch" girls to get them on your team, couldn't come out in the US. Not because the ESRB wouldn't let them, it would simply slap an AO rating on such a game. No retailer in the US will sell an AO game, so publishers know they have to either censor the game down enough to hit an MA rating, or simply not bother to release a game in the US.

Those games are super niche market games anyway and the cost of censoring them down to MA rated games, would probably outweigh the revenue made from US sales. Especially when people who like that stuff will import the game to have the "uncensored" version.

So in a way it is censoring, but only due to retail obligations. Australia has this problem, or at least did, where many games like GTA were simply banned because of government restrictions. Of course people simply imported games anyway, but they weren't ever able to get "official" releases there.
 

Erttheking

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CritialGaming said:
See, THAT I consider to be censorship. That is something I can understand people being mad about. The thing is, that's not really what the OP is talking about.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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CritialGaming said:
erttheking said:
OT: In-between misuse of the word censorship, blowing out of proportion the influence media actually has on gaming, and ignoring that plenty of racy stuff still comes out of Japan with no fuss, I still hold my old views on the matter.

If you're trying to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one. Publishers should have a spine and release the games they want to release. VA-11 Hall-A did just freaking fine and it's up to its neck in Japanese weirdness, even if it's not from Japan. If publishers are too spineless to take a chance then I don't feel sorry for them. Nearly every major game release nowadays gets backlash in some form of another, yet that doesn't stop them from releasing their games.

I'm sorry that you're not getting some of the games you like, but I'm not going to apologize for the actions of cowardly publishers.
The biggest problem is that many games don't get rated the same way by the ESRB. So a harem-anime RPG like Moe Chronicles, where you "touch" girls to get them on your team, couldn't come out in the US. Not because the ESRB wouldn't let them, it would simply slap an AO rating on such a game. No retailer in the US will sell an AO game, so publishers know they have to either censor the game down enough to hit an MA rating, or simply not bother to release a game in the US.

Those games are super niche market games anyway and the cost of censoring them down to MA rated games, would probably outweigh the revenue made from US sales. Especially when people who like that stuff will import the game to have the "uncensored" version.

So in a way it is censoring, but only due to retail obligations. Australia has this problem, or at least did, where many games like GTA were simply banned because of government restrictions. Of course people simply imported games anyway, but they weren't ever able to get "official" releases there.
I can't be the only one put off by the word touch being in quotes. Right?
 

CritialGaming

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nomotog said:
I can't be the only one put off by the word touch being in quotes. Right?
I doubt it. But it was a key example of the point I was making. Which turned out was the entire wrong point to make. So....just ignore me.
 

NPC009

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nomotog said:
If we have to give up criticism to bring up localization chances, then it is not a fair price to pay. It wouldn't be worth it. I also doubt that it is a real big issue in the process.
Totally agree with that. Besides, from my experience, publisher of nice games want their games reviewed, even if they end up scoring seven out out of tens at best. Publisher like NISA send review codes to all sorts of gaming publications in the hope that the games will be covered. Many of these games have a nearly non-existent marketing budget, so getting the critics to talk about them is most of the marketing plan.

(And it works, I've reviewed games like Mugen Souls and Time and Eternity simply because a magazine needed to fill some pages and the editor-in-chief happened to have codes in their inbox.)
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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As someone who has imported dozes of games (most due to them never ever ever having a chance to release out of Japan but some due to removed content or lack of dual audio) here is what I have to say.

Importing is the way consumers take the power back from corporations. When a game isn't released or is changed etc. that is done because these bodies think not enough people will buy it and that those who would don't matter. Well, importing returns to us the power to matter. We matter to the Japanese companies who actually MAKE the games, and sure, the import and localization firms (who mostly suck outside of Xseed and Aksys) and western markets lose sales but the sales do occur in the Japanese side of things. This actually matters a ton since if a game isn't projected to sell in Japan, no MATTER how it does in the west, it will not get made. This was why the third Zero game almost was never made, cause the prior two games were projected to sell badly in Japan, how well they did in the west was of no import.


Now, this all is more general, if we talk about specifically importing to get uncensored games, it would have to be some PRETTY serious censorship to justify that. Stuff like what happened to Mugen Souls or Fire emblem or Criminal Girls, which isn't the case most of the time, and the culprit seems to be just a couple of corporations. In that case, however, importing gives us added power, it gives us the power to bypass their judgement of what they deem we want and show them what we actually want. Nintendo kinda screwed the pooch in that area with region locking, requirin you to import a console too, but folks like NISA for example, can sit on their unsold mugen souls LEs for years, hoping to sell them, while we get them imported from playasia for 26 bucks or however much it was. Let me tell ya, it feels amazing to give them such a middle finger.

This all is predicated on knowing japanese so it'll take a while if you haven't sensed how things are going from a decade ago and decided to learn JP but there's always future games and you can always start.


Finally, some games, they'll never get a release here. You will never get to play Magical Pantyshot Princess VIII: Stripe Edition, no matter what, and as the climate turns, more games, games that USED to be ok like Yakuza or DoA, will be either censored or rejected. You can not alter this in any way, all you can do is ensure that the games at least get made in the first place by supporting the developers, even at the cost of the localizers.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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CritialGaming said:
erttheking said:
OT: In-between misuse of the word censorship, blowing out of proportion the influence media actually has on gaming, and ignoring that plenty of racy stuff still comes out of Japan with no fuss, I still hold my old views on the matter.

If you're trying to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one. Publishers should have a spine and release the games they want to release. VA-11 Hall-A did just freaking fine and it's up to its neck in Japanese weirdness, even if it's not from Japan. If publishers are too spineless to take a chance then I don't feel sorry for them. Nearly every major game release nowadays gets backlash in some form of another, yet that doesn't stop them from releasing their games.

I'm sorry that you're not getting some of the games you like, but I'm not going to apologize for the actions of cowardly publishers.
The biggest problem is that many games don't get rated the same way by the ESRB. So a harem-anime RPG like Moe Chronicles, where you "touch" girls to get them on your team, couldn't come out in the US. Not because the ESRB wouldn't let them, it would simply slap an AO rating on such a game. No retailer in the US will sell an AO game, so publishers know they have to either censor the game down enough to hit an MA rating, or simply not bother to release a game in the US.

Those games are super niche market games anyway and the cost of censoring them down to MA rated games, would probably outweigh the revenue made from US sales. Especially when people who like that stuff will import the game to have the "uncensored" version.

So in a way it is censoring, but only due to retail obligations. Australia has this problem, or at least did, where many games like GTA were simply banned because of government restrictions. Of course people simply imported games anyway, but they weren't ever able to get "official" releases there.
How is it the ESRB's fault that no retail store in the US has the minerals to stock games rated for adults the same way they stock movies just for adults? I don't consider rating something as 'Adults Only' to be a terrible thing, especially since it basically says "Yeah the content in here is pretty heinous, it isn't criminal but it isn't for people under the age of 18".

Blame fuckers like Wal-Mart for being puritanical and maybe tell Gamestop to stop being such wusses and carry adults only games and just card every bugger that tries to buy them. It's what we fuckin' do.
 

CritialGaming

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Gordon_4 said:
Hey I agree with you. But mainstream retailers do not want to have any of that stuff in stock. Nobody is going to adult stores to buy video games, so there simply is no way to make a direct market for it here in the US. Frankly those games absolutely would sell, if retailers gave them a chance, but that is extra hassle for big chain markets to deal with. In fact, there may also be licensing issues as well, government restrictions that prevent them from carrying AO games even if they wanted too.

America is conservative as fuck when it comes to sex and nudity. For whatever reason, it just isn't accepted here. In other countries there are tits on the national news, but America is super uptight about it, even when we do everything to advertise it.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Moe Chronicle is an interesting example. The story goes like this; there's monster monpiece which DID get a western release, is part of the same series, contains sexual rubbing, and was not rated AO by the esrb. To achieve this, they did NOT have to remove the "touching", hence, mere touching does NOT grant you AO.


Now, what they did do, was remove a couple of art images. Basically, they were monster musume that looked like lolis. As the game was a card game, this change was pretty big since card games have little else in the way of visuals beyond the card art itself. The publisher (Idea Factory, not CH) later revised their policy, and refused to censor their games, opting to just not release them.


But it gets better! We arrive at Moe Chronicle, the sequel and a dungeon crawler turn based Jrpg which didn't get released in the west. What it did get was a FULLY TRANSLATED Asian English version. I have not played it myself but from a few images it seemed at the very least competent and coherent English. So, why would a westerner not get this Asian English version. Why would they not pray all games follow this path of text translated, uncensored games. As someone who speaks Japanese and doesn't need them, I still see it as an amazing step forward for the fans of such games and the community as a whole. If it adversely affects the censorious western localizing Americanizers, it is their fault, not the consumers' who do not owe them their business when an alternative superior in every way exists. Remember, these consumers are the same people whom, in choosing not to bring a game over, these companies decided did not matter enough. To turn around and expect loyalty from them is absurd.
 

CaitSeith

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Yeah, I don't like the idea of depending on importing to get the game either... unless the localization is so lousy that it doesn't even resemble the original game. For that case, having the choice is beneficial.
erttheking said:
gyrobot said:
a SJW Cuckold.
http://media0.giphy.com/media/4pMX5rJ4PYAEM/giphy.gif
 

Avnger

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Gordon_4 said:
CritialGaming said:
erttheking said:
Snip
How is it the ESRB's fault that no retail store in the US has the minerals to stock games rated for adults the same way they stock movies just for adults? I don't consider rating something as 'Adults Only' to be a terrible thing, especially since it basically says "Yeah the content in here is pretty heinous, it isn't criminal but it isn't for people under the age of 18".

Blame fuckers like Wal-Mart for being puritanical and maybe tell Gamestop to stop being such wusses and carry adults only games and just card every bugger that tries to buy them. It's what we fuckin' do.
That's a bit of a false comparison, actually. Nearly all retail stores don't sell movies or TV rated above "R" which is the equivalent of an ESRB "M." The equivalent to an AO rating from the ESRB would be an MPAA rating of "NC-17" (previously known as "X"). Almost no "regular" retail store stocks "NC-17" movies. Good luck finding a non-pornographic theater that shows "NC-17" movies also.

In principal though, I completely agree with you. There is no "censoring" going on. AO games are perfectly legal to sell. Businesses are simply using their own rights to choose what to stock and what not to. They're the ones people should be protesting at.