John Wick 2 and other style=substance movies

[bartholen_v1legacy]

I went and saw John Wick 2 and it was absolutely great. Improved over the first one in all respects while still retaining what made it special. All of Keanu Reeves' dialogue could fit in maybe 2 or 3 pages of script. Laurence Fishburne is clearly having the time of his life hamming it up big time. Ian McShane remains a veritable fortress of charisma. The action is clean, fast and beautifully acrobatic. Most of the movies I've seen so far this year have not let me down, and this was no exception. Like Logan, this movie turned out to be everything I wanted it to. This is a franchise that despite being completely original, feels like it was taken right out of a stylized comic book. The characters and the shadow society they inhabit are colourful and strangely satisfying in how well organized they are.

But what separates John Wick from any other action, perhaps even film franchise right now, bar perhaps James Bond, is its style. That's the one word I would choose over any others to describe this franchise. Most of this movie could have ZZ Top's "Sharp Dressed Man" playing on a loop in the background, and it would fit perfectly, despite like 60% of the film being people shooting, stabbing and punching the shit out of each other. The sequel in particular is a near-endless parade of impossibly luxurious restaurants, dinners and art galleries, beautiful architectural locations, fantastically stylish outfits, vibrantly colourful settings and gorgeous lighting. I remember MovieBob using the phrase "the style is the substance" in relation to some movie, and it applies in full force here. Usually style over substance is meant as a criticism, but John Wick IMO proves that when taken far enough, mindless eye candy can be just as engaging as any cerebral drama. I thought about the Yahtzee quote about Painkiller when the movie was over, and it summarises the movie perfectly when you change a couple of words:

"It's like after the developers filmmakers were assigned to make an unsophisticated shooter action movie they vowed to make it the most stylish unsophisticated shooter action movie ever, and spent all the leftover escort mission and fetch quest thematic depth and character development money on tarting it up"

So yeah. John Wick 2 is great, perhaps one of the best action movies of the year, and anyone who liked the first one is bound to love this one. What examples can you think of where the style overriding substance turned out in a film's favor?

 

[Hawki]

But what separates John Wick from any other action, perhaps even film franchise right now, bar perhaps James Bond, is its style.

Um, what?

Every James Bond film since Casino Royale has put substance before style. Yes, Quantum of Solace was a letdown, but it still had substance per se, its main theme being the idea of how the value of resources shifts over time, the idea that water could become more valuable than oil in the 21st century. The last Bond film that had style before substance was Die Another Day and...yeah. Least said about that isntallment the better.

Maybe the franchise as a whole could be accused of this, but in recent times, not so much.

But as to your question, of

What examples can you think of where the style overriding substance turned out in a film's favor?

Off the top of my head, I can nominate:

-The Fifth Element

-Doctor Strange

-Pacific Rim

-Maybe Tron & Tron: Legacy (but for different reasons, and more based on consensus rather than personal opinion)

-The Grand Budapest Hotel (I'm a bit more tepid to this film than others, but I remember it more for its style than substance, so there is that)

-The Wizard of Oz (sort of - I think there's plenty of substance, but people (or at least me) tend to remember it for its style more)

There might be others, but I'll be honest, I find that when films put style before substance, the results are usually negative. For instance, Burton's Alice in Wonderland and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory are films that have plenty of style to them, but are very much net negatives in my eyes.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

But what separates John Wick from any other action, perhaps even film franchise right now, bar perhaps James Bond, is its style.

Um, what?

Every James Bond film since Casino Royale has put substance before style. Yes, Quantum of Solace was a letdown, but it still had substance per se, its main theme being the idea of how the value of resources shifts over time, the idea that water could become more valuable than oil in the 21st century. The last Bond film that had style before substance was Die Another Day and...yeah. Least said about that isntallment the better.

That wasn't mean to imply that Bond would be style over substance. It's that in terms of what I deem "stylish", only James Bond is comparable in terms of film franchises right now. I couldn't think of another film franchise that put as much emphasis on putting exotic locations, stylish clothing and overall luxury on screen. It's a bit of a murky subject, since the idea of being stylish is a personal one, but for me John Wick is top of the line in that regard. If we go to individual films then there's tons that override it.

I liked the film but the gunplay was atrocious. I recall the first movie had John use cover but here it was the henchmen running into John's gun.

I didn't mind the unrealistic gunplay. To me it went hand in hand with the strange, elevated reality the film seems to take place in. It's what I'd have wanted the gun-fu of Equilibrium (an awful movie, don't bother) to be. I think if the movie had had more grounded and realistic shootouts instead of the hyper-kinetic gun ballet it would have detracted from the stylization a bit, and slowed the action down, since for most of the action scenes John is running to, or away, from someone or something.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Well I wouldn't call it style over substance, but rather style is substance. Or it can be, and often is at least part of it. Most of the real 'auteur directors' have a strong sense of style to their filmography. You can't think of David Fincher and Steven Soderbergh films without seeing their clinical, cold style. You can't think of Scorsese films without thinking of the camera swaggering as much as his characters, etc etc.

Anyway, if you really want specifics of directors who really go deep into this Nicolas Winding Refn is really good if you like the 80's synthwave aesthetic. Drive and Neon Demon are pretty much 100% style with very cut-down, simple stories. Especially the latter, Drive at least has some more oompf to it.

Wes Anderson is another though he pays quite a bit more attention to story and especially character. Or rather, the characters are part of the film's style. Their behaviours and dialogue are interwoven with his film's aesthetic. Still, the man's sense of style can't be denied. The typography alone, fuck yes.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Laurence Fishburne is clearly having the time of his life hamming it up big time.

I personally thought Fishburne was the only bad thing in the movie.

Anyway, I think Kingsmen is a style=substance movie. Both it and John Wick are movies I watch only for the unique and crazy action scenes.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Wes Anderson is another though he pays quite a bit more attention to story and especially character. Or rather, the characters are part of the film's style. Their behaviours and dialogue are interwoven with his film's aesthetic. Still, the man's sense of style can't be denied. The typography alone, fuck yes.

With Wes Anderson I think it's become more a question of Style over Humanity. His movies now are so meticulously dressed and framed that it's been drained of any sort of organic presence. Movies like Rushmore and The Royal Tenenbaums still feel like they take place in living breathing worlds that are giving just that little something to make them seem a bit more quirky and magical. But beginning with Steve Zissou the artificiality has started completely taking over.

 

[Cowabungaa]

With Wes Anderson I think it's become more a question of Style over Humanity. His movies now are so meticulously dressed and framed that it's been drained of any sort of organic presence. Movies like Rushmore and The Royal Tenenbaums still feel like they take place in living breathing worlds that are giving just that little something to make them seem a bit more quirky and magical. But beginning with Steve Zissou the artificiality has started completely taking over.

That's a fair way of putting it. Not really a plus or a negative, just how he does it. It's a fairytale type deal. Thinking about it like that especially The Darjeeling Limited becomes a lot more interesting. In that the main characters and such do indeed feel artificial and constructed, but it seems as if it's just them. As if they live in their own carefully crafted inner world while there's a breathing, more organic world going on around them. And every now and then they get dragged back into it, and they don't exactly like it.

 

[Glongpre]

I thought the gunplay was a little too much. The first one had just the right amount. 2 just seemed like they were throwing way too many people at him, but none of them seemed to know how to pull a trigger.

The fist fights were really great though. I was loving the grappling. Both his fights with Cassian were superb.

Other style movies are like all of Nicolas Winding Refn's movies. Neon Demon, Only God Forgives, Drive are so nice to look at, but the underlying stories are usually fairly straightforward. But I wouldn't say that detracts from them, their style adds to the movie, the style becomes part of their substance.

Also, Keanu was a creepy ************ in Neon Demon. I want to see him take on more villain roles, he has a certain quiet sinister vibe about him.

 

[happyninja42]

But as to your question, of

What examples can you think of where the style overriding substance turned out in a film's favor?

Off the top of my head, I can nominate:

-The Fifth Element

Wholeheartedly agree with this one. That movie had a very definitive style in mind, and it ran with it full speed. And the end result was glorious. I think because it didn't take itself too seriously, the silliness of the aesthetic was perfectly fine. Same with John Wick for me. It really did feel like a movie made by stunt men, who were sitting around one night and were like "Hey, if we could make a movie, what would we do with it? How would we make it look cool for us?" And poof, you got John Wick.

Now, personally, I didn't find JW2 to be as good as the original. The gun fights felt overly long, and didn't actually excite me the way the first ones did. Except for one exception between Wick and Common's character midway in the movie. The only scene in the movie that I truly loved, and was like "whoa, ok that was nice" was:

Spoiler

When the woman that Wick was sent to kill, was confronted by Wick. The whole sequence of her undressing, getting into the tub, and slicing her wrists, because "she'd lived her life on her terms, she would end it the same"

was beautifully shot. I found myself genuinely impressed by the cinematography of the scene, and just the overall setup. Very high quality.

The rest of the movie? Eh, it was decent, but only that.