Libetarianism (In Brief)

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CosmicCommander

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In my time as a Rooster Teeth-ist, Nation State-ist, Bungie-ist, and most importantly, Escapist-ist, I have seen many misconceptions of the political and philosiphacal ideology known as Libertarianism, I have been told that it is simply "Centrism plus 1" which it clearly isn't, so, I bring you a handy animation to show you What The Hell Libertarianism is.

Clicky [http://isil.org/resources/introduction.swf]
 

CosmicCommander

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xmetatr0nx said:
CosmicCommander said:
I Never said it was compulsary...
So im going to assume you are a libertarian, yes? Do you find your political views as such align more with the democrat or republican views?
(Don't worry, I know quite a bit about US Politics.)
Well I guess that it would have to be Democrat, although Conservatives have a better agenda for Economic Freedom, their huge restrictions on Personnal (Gay Marriage, Drug use, Stem Cells) annoy me a lot. Liberals, although their Economic ideals do not hold a candle to the Present Consevative's ideals, it's a small trade off for what the Conservatives would restrict.
 

Radeonx

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NoMoreSanity said:
A quick trip to Wikipedia would solve this. And where's the discussion?
Agreed. Although, at first, I read this as Librariatism, and thought it was about librarians. Man was I disappointed.
 

Rolling Thunder

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CosmicCommander said:
In my time as a Rooster Teeth-ist, Nation State-ist, Bungie-ist, and most importantly, Escapeist-ist, I have seen many misconceptions of the political and philosiphacal ideology known as Libertarianism, I have been told that it is simply "Centrism plus 1" which it clearly isn't, so, I bring you a handy animation to show you What The Hell Libertarianism is.

Clicky [http://isil.org/resources/introduction.swf]
A joke, at least amongst economists. On the whole, it simply seems to consist of a great deal of pious moralising rather than a logical approach as to how to get things done. And no sir, I am not a communist, or even particularly socialist.

Some intrinsic flaws of Libertarianism:

Flat Tax: Well, firstly, to maintain a modern government (even a minimal one) under flat taxation, you would have to keep to such a level of taxation that it would seriously hurt poorer people. Yes, I'm sure it would seem entirely fair to you, but you should realise that U$100 is, to a billionaire, disposable, to a normal man, sizeable, to a poor man, indispensable, and to a Mexican immigrant, a fortune to send back home. Money is fiscally relative - it's value is not the same to everybody.

Secondly, the notion that it is intriniscally unfair that a rich man pay more tax than a poor man. Well, that is also silly. Your tax, at a most basic level, pays for the maintenance of law and order in your nation by means of an army, police force and so on. Thus, you are paying for a service. However, a wealthy man benefits far more from this service than a poor man. Put simply - if you own a nice car, you are more likely to have that car stolen. If you own two cars, you are twice as likely to be the victim of automoblie theft. In short, the rich have a great deal more to lose from the breakdown of law and order - and thus gain more from it's maintenance - than the poor.

Thirdly, we come to the pragmatics. Simply put, without a degree of a welfare state, much as I am loathe to argue this, economic recovery is considerably slower. The recent macroeconomic crises of these times have all been that of demand-depression - where demand slumps, and thus suppliers begin to make cutbacks, cutting labour costs, thus worsening the situation blah blah blah. Without government intervention, this cycle would eventually continue until much of the nation was simply bankrupt and unemployed - rock bottom, as it were. With government intervention, a level of demand is maintained in the economy by means of a welfare payout. Yes, it is taking money from the rich and giving to the poor, but the fact remains that that money will soon cycle back to the rich again. Secondly, since the wealthier you are, the higher your MPS (marginal propensity to save), the fact is that in an economic downturn, that money is less useful in your hands (or bank account) than it is in a poorer man's (being spent). Yes, it sucks, but it also stands between you, and total economic ruin. So cease complaining so loudly.
 

Mother Yeti

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The people I know who are Libertarians seem to subscribe to the movement out a vague sense that they won't have to pay taxes and pot will be legal. No more, no less.
 

Pimppeter2

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Aren't you the guys that go around shooshing me and telling me others are trying to read?

Yes...That was a stab at the name
 

Hazy

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pimppeter2 said:
Aren't you the guys that go around shooshing me and telling me others are trying to read?

Yes...That was a stab at the name
A stab at the name indeed. While a wrong one, it was quite funny :D
 

Earthbound

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I remember this video. I believe I saw it on Newgrounds many years ago. It was the first video to go on my favorites list on that site.

Anyway, this video was one of the reasons that my political spectrum shifted from conservative-centrist straight up. It more-or-less introduced me to the concept of Libertarianism, which I hold as the best type of government now. I seriously think that the video should be required viewing in schools, though I doubt that any politician would want to pass that law.
 

garjian

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wow... what a lovely video...
actually made me wanna appluad it lol...

its just... your asking the public (and im assuming global public, or there would still be disagreements and wars) to come together and decided on every single thing as a whole..?

as for electing leaders they either have no power and therefore no purpose... or power... and therefore its a democracy...

i dont get how it can be any diffrent than what we already and still work... the entire population cannot vote together cause... it just wouldnt work... too hard to find results and would take too long to gather...
if its seperate nations there would still be conflict...
if a leader had no power to control this... there would be no purpose for them...
and if a leader did... well thats what we already have...
and a single global leader? lets not go there...
(yeah i just repeated myself :S)
so yeah... i dont get it really...
but an inspirational video indeed!

EDIT: also this would mean healthcare, electricity and every other public service would cost...
people on low incomes could NOT afford healthcare, water, anything... thats horrible

these services cannot be free without taxes and wouldnt tax be theft? and require a leader with power?
 

kawligia

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Fondant said:
CosmicCommander said:
In my time as a Rooster Teeth-ist, Nation State-ist, Bungie-ist, and most importantly, Escapeist-ist, I have seen many misconceptions of the political and philosiphacal ideology known as Libertarianism, I have been told that it is simply "Centrism plus 1" which it clearly isn't, so, I bring you a handy animation to show you What The Hell Libertarianism is.

Clicky [http://isil.org/resources/introduction.swf]
So cease complaining so loudly.
He is making his point and you are making yours. He doesn't have to shut up any more than you.

Secondly, while I consider myself a Libertarian (for the most part) I am not entirely opposed to different rates of taxation, but it should be as close to a flat tax as is reasonable. And we could get reasonably close to a flat rate if we stopped showering people with money that they didn't earn. I'm not against helping someone temporarily to get back on their feet, but we toss too many people too much money for too long a time. We should only be helping people to help themselves, not saving them FROM themselves. That applies to individuals AND businesses.

In the US, close to 50% of households receive some type of government support. I think the Democrats are trying to get that number past 50% so that they can permanently lock in their power.

Even if you love the Democrats and everything they do, you should still realize the danger in people voting themselves money of your pocket and ignoring the consequences. What happens when the people who guarantee free money get elected for that reason alone when they start to violate your fundamental rights? How will you dislodge them from power when the majority of voters elect them because they want something for nothing?

Even though the Democrats might increase SOME personal liberties in the short-run (while others will probably decrease), that's only half the picture. If you control a person's wealth, you can control anything about him. Once government controls all economics, ALL your personal liberties, even the ones they expand upon, will exist only at their pleasure. That's where the real long-term danger lies.

So anyway, Libertarianism is about more than just taxation. It's about small government. Not NO government, just small government; enough to be effective at its central and necessary purposes and no more.

A wise man once said "Government is a useful servant, but a dangerous master." Truer words were never spoken.
 

CosmicCommander

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Apr 11, 2009
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Fondant said:
CosmicCommander said:
In my time as a Rooster Teeth-ist, Nation State-ist, Bungie-ist, and most importantly, Escapeist-ist, I have seen many misconceptions of the political and philosiphacal ideology known as Libertarianism, I have been told that it is simply "Centrism plus 1" which it clearly isn't, so, I bring you a handy animation to show you What The Hell Libertarianism is.

Clicky [http://isil.org/resources/introduction.swf]
A joke, at least amongst economists. On the whole, it simply seems to consist of a great deal of pious moralising rather than a logical approach as to how to get things done. And no sir, I am not a communist, or even particularly socialist.

Some intrinsic flaws of Libertarianism:

Flat Tax: Well, firstly, to maintain a modern government (even a minimal one) under flat taxation, you would have to keep to such a level of taxation that it would seriously hurt poorer people. Yes, I'm sure it would seem entirely fair to you, but you should realise that U$100 is, to a billionaire, disposable, to a normal man, sizeable, to a poor man, indispensable, and to a Mexican immigrant, a fortune to send back home. Money is fiscally relative - it's value is not the same to everybody.

Secondly, the notion that it is intriniscally unfair that a rich man pay more tax than a poor man. Well, that is also silly. Your tax, at a most basic level, pays for the maintenance of law and order in your nation by means of an army, police force and so on. Thus, you are paying for a service. However, a wealthy man benefits far more from this service than a poor man. Put simply - if you own a nice car, you are more likely to have that car stolen. If you own two cars, you are twice as likely to be the victim of automoblie theft. In short, the rich have a great deal more to lose from the breakdown of law and order - and thus gain more from it's maintenance - than the poor.

Thirdly, we come to the pragmatics. Simply put, without a degree of a welfare state, much as I am loathe to argue this, economic recovery is considerably slower. The recent macroeconomic crises of these times have all been that of demand-depression - where demand slumps, and thus suppliers begin to make cutbacks, cutting labour costs, thus worsening the situation blah blah blah. Without government intervention, this cycle would eventually continue until much of the nation was simply bankrupt and unemployed - rock bottom, as it were. With government intervention, a level of demand is maintained in the economy by means of a welfare payout. Yes, it is taking money from the rich and giving to the poor, but the fact remains that that money will soon cycle back to the rich again. Secondly, since the wealthier you are, the higher your MPS (marginal propensity to save), the fact is that in an economic downturn, that money is less useful in your hands (or bank account) than it is in a poorer man's (being spent). Yes, it sucks, but it also stands between you, and total economic ruin. So cease complaining so loudly.
Very Good points you've made there, and this thread, Sir, was not created with the intention of Conversion, or Whining, simply eductaion.

Your first point was sound, but I would not say that the thought of money being disposable to different levels of wealth, does not necessarily apply to all cases, I myself am part of Britannia's 'Lower Class' (as an observation, a Lower Class person defending the concept of Flat Tax is, in itself an oddity) and due to such I see all money as indisposable. If I say, rose to become the CEO (Somehow) of Microsoft, I would of probably got there due to my wish to save and use money only when necessary, all luxuries would be bought with my money, making sure of no repurcussions of such. After working my way up to such a position, I would want to only pay a tax with the same rates as all, due to the fact I had toiled, worked hard, and done my utmost to earn that money, and I would never want to pay more, out of pride, or spite to the people who would use my money for welfare.

To your second point, True, But could that not be done by either voluntary donations to the government, to protect you, or to a private security service.

To your third point, I see in a very different view to you, I see the economy as a Artificial Ground of Natural Selection. Yes, Confusing isn't it? Let me elaborate, Banks who made mistakes lending money to people who could not pay these debts in the US, caused, what we over in Britannia call, the Credit Crunch aka; this this recession. If those banks made the mistake of lending money to unsuitable clients, they have every right to suffer for their mistake, yes, they shall topple, and money deposited in those banks shall be lost, but any bank with a Brain should have a contingency plan to sort, or clean up it's mess, what I mean by this, is to re-stabalise itself, or pay the money they lost back to the depositers. If that bank topples there will always be other banks, some will go the same way, some will grow, and thrive, but in this there will never be a winner, just a leader, and there shall always b competition. Whether it be any inindustry, or service, the sam rules of Artificial Ground of Natural Selection will apply. Of course, this can only exist in a Laissez-faire capitalist society.

I hope for more engaging debate.
 

magnuslion

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Jun 16, 2009
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Hmm i dont have a political party affiliation, due to the fact that I despise politics on all levels. however this video sums up what I think. the government we have now has the right to take anything you have, any time they want. which is BS. we have too much Government as it is and we are getting more.
"Anyone who will trade Freedom for Safety, deserves neither" -Me paraphrasing Jefferson and Franklin.