Lightning Returns Critique

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AdamRhodes

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Hey guys, I'm working on a video review/critique of why I think Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII fails when compared to previous installments of Final Fantasy. I was hoping to get peoples' opinions on what your favorite FF game is and why, and also who are your favorite FF characters and what makes them memorable? Feel free to add your own criticism or defense of Lightning Returns. If I use anyone's post in the video, you will be credited. Thanks, guys!
 

CritialGaming

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Why don't you tell us what you think about Lightning Returns first so we can agree/disagree with you and provide our feedback based on opinions you've already developed?
 

go-10

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here's the thing, EVERYBODY and their mother believes that FF XIII, XIII-2, and Lightning Returns is a horrible failure that shouldn't exist and fails in every sense when compared to its predecessors. So really I wouldn't even care too much for your opinion since you're just going to hate on the game just like everyone else. There's really no discussion to have here, if you like any of the XIII series of games you are in the minority and hence you are wrong! And if you don't like then you are part of the majority, join the choir!

of course that's just my opinion and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors :)



but just my single thought on the entire "series" of XIII, I didn't like the story, it's world, or battle system BUT I thought the 2 sisters (Lightning and Serah) where some of the cutest/badass characters in the series to date, I got a really strong Faris and Lenna vibe from them... too bad it didn't play out that way though :(
 

AdamRhodes

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Bear in mind I didn't play the previous FFXIII games. The characters seemed really blah and weak. For one, you barely interact with any of them. Final Fantasy had a party system so that these characters with different personalities and viewpoints can interact. Lightning Returns had Lightning, who speaks barely above a whisper and with no emotion, and the character she interacts with the most is Hope, who's mostly there to say "As you know..." and recap the previous games. And the character designs aren't great either. Lightning looks like she doesn't belong to her world at all. Tidus had a goofy outfit but he still looked like he belonged in that world. Noel looks like a Kingdom Hearts character rather than a Final Fantasy character.

The plot was equally weak. [SPOILERS AHEAD] There were five plot threads and only one of them directly lead into the end of the game. Everything involving Yeul and Caius was confusing for no reason and didn't add to the main plot at all. The world has supposedly been falling apart for 500 years and each of the dozen heroes from the last two games have just been dicking around this whole time? At the end Vanille is working for an evil church and ignoring the advice of her girlfriend, Fang. Why? Wouldn't her previous interactions with God-like beings give her cause to be skeptical?

I will say, one of the things I liked about the game was the combat/schema system. The combat was sort of in between FFXII and a character action game. And the schema reminded me of the dress-spheres which I liked. I don't like static character designs, I like a little more variety in how the characters look.

Anyway, I'd like my video to be a contrast between Lightning Returns and other, more popular titles. So, I'm looking to get peoples' opinions on why other FF games succeeded or failed, what they thought of the characters and plot, and maybe even how they think future titles should go.
 

AdamRhodes

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GZGoten said:
here's the thing, EVERYBODY and their mother believes that FF XIII, XIII-2, and Lightning Returns is a horrible failure that shouldn't exist and fails in every sense when compared to its predecessors. So really I wouldn't even care too much for your opinion since you're just going to hate on the game just like everyone else. There's really no discussion to have here, if you like any of the XIII series of games you are in the minority and hence you are wrong! And if you don't like then you are part of the majority, join the choir!

of course that's just my opinion and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors :)



but just my single thought on the entire "series" of XIII, I didn't like the story, it's world, or battle system BUT I thought the 2 sisters (Lightning and Serah) where some of the cutest/badass characters in the series to date, I got a really strong Faris and Lenna vibe from them... too bad it didn't play out that way though :(
I don't want this to be just an echo chamber/circlejerk of "XIII sucks", I wanna know peoples' specific reasons why it sucks and compare them to previous FF titles. Like, for example, people really cared and were emotionally affected when Aeris died, but throughout Lightning Returns I didn't care that Serah was dead because the emotional connection wasn't there. They basically said "Your sister is dead. You are sad. You want her back." without giving me a reason to BE sad. Maybe that's on me for not playing XIII-2.
 

go-10

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AdamRhodes said:
I don't want this to be just an echo chamber/circlejerk of "XIII sucks", I wanna know peoples' specific reasons why it sucks and compare them to previous FF titles. Like, for example, people really cared and were emotionally affected when Aeris died, but throughout Lightning Returns I didn't care that Serah was dead because the emotional connection wasn't there. They basically said "Your sister is dead. You are sad. You want her back." without giving me a reason to BE sad. Maybe that's on me for not playing XIII-2.
then yeah I think playing XIII-2 is a big reason why you would care about Serah, she's cool, she's cute, and she's a go getter, none of that mopey "I can't do this" crap that most jRPG protagonist seem to go through
the story was bad there's no denying it, it made no sense and worse of all if you wanted to understand it you had to read through various pages of an encyclopedia buried within the menu, under the menu, within the main menu. It was a mess

really the only thing I enjoyed were Lightning and Serah because despite being female characters they weren't uber powerful or extremely dependent on their companions to get the job done. They would just get up and do it themselves, sure it wasn't easy but with a little help from their friends they got the job done. It was just nice to see 2 female characters being treated this way

Lightning Returns on the other hand ruined the only redeeming factor about the series, Lightning could literally be replaced with a lamp post or ACTUAL lightning and the story wouldn't change because she wasn't an active participant of the story, she was just there for the ride. Worst of all they killed Serah because reasons. LR was a huge disappointment and a horrible ending to a bad trilogy not because of failing to achieve what the old games did but because rather than cash in on the good they went more and more into the WTF this is horrible territory. If the game had just been Lightning and Serah TOGETHER IN A PARTY going through the different timelines and putting the world back together into proper order by ending the realities that were affected by chaotic events and culminating in the 2 of them recruiting different characters from different timelines to help them put and end to Chaos and setting time on the right course then it would have been a pretty good game. Basically a spiritual successor to Chrono Trigger with 2 female lead characters
 

Sniper Team 4

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Okay, I'll take a shot at this. Fair warning, it's a LOT of reading.

Favorite Final Fantasy: VIII. I think VII is better, but VIII holds a special place in my heart. It was the first FF game I ever played, and it was so different from anything else. The futuristic type setting was a big draw for me. I still say that the intro movie is one of the best intros in video games. And that moment when Squall is riding on the boat, just before the attack on Dollet begins, is beautiful. The calm water, reflecting the moon, and then the music picks up...just amazing.
I also loved all the characters. Okay, maybe Irvine a little less than the others, but I still enjoyed him. Yes, I even liked Squall and his moody "Nobody understand me" attitude, because I was like that when I was a teenager. I didn't really fit in, so I could understand the wall that he put up. Selphie was adorable to me too.
I enjoyed how the story started out as just a small one, with you being nothing more than a mercenary at a combat school, but then it slowly grew into something much more. Suddenly, you're playing as a different group of characters and you have no idea why. Now you've been hired out to this rebel cell. Now there's Edea. The way the story just kept building felt like a very natural pace to me.
Yes, the ultimate bad guy's plan is pretty stupid, and once time is compressed, the world becomes very small and boring, but I still adore this game.

Favorite character: Hm...that's tough. I like Yuffie because she's quirky and brings some much needed comic relief to a rather serious group, but she can still be counted on when she's needed. Plus, she's completely optional, as is her entire quest, which means when you do find her, you're like, "Wow, what is all this?" I like Tifa because they made her more than just a pair of boobs, which is something that seems to hard to do now. If a woman is hot, she must either be completely aware of it and use it constantly, or she must be there for eye candy and otherwise not much else. Tifa was strong, independent, can give and take a beating, but she also had a soft side, a caring nature, and wasn't above getting a little jealous and flirting. Everything about her just felt...natural. And Aeris falls into the same boat. I think all the characters from VII and the most well-written characters in Final Fantasy, because they're more than just their first appearance would imply.


I'm going to let you in on a little secret. I didn't think Final Fantasy XIII was that bad. Yes, it is certainly not the shining paragon that Final Fantasy used to be known for, but I had more fun playing it than I did XII. I hate XII. To this day, I still struggle to remember the characters' names (which is a serious problem for a FF game), and I can't begin to tell you what happened or why people did what they did. XII felt like more of a betrayal to the series to me than XIII ever did. I know that's a minority opinion, but there it is. The characters were forgettable, the story was nothing but a political mess, and I'm sorry, but there's something wrong when you can just put the controller on the ground and the game plays itself during fights.
Plus, everyone could use every weapon. That was something that really annoyed me. I like how everyone gets their own weapon because it makes them stand out.

So why bring that up? Because it helps explain my views on XIII and its following sequels. XIII has some serious faults, which I'm sure you're well aware of. Linear corridor comes to mind a lot. Also, the world just felt...empty. No towns, no people. And sidequests were gone. No sense of wandering off and stumbling across something exciting.
But I still liked it. I can remember the characters. I understood why they were doing what they were doing (and they each had their own weapons, thank God). I know what the plot was about. Yes, it was kind of stupid at points, but most FF plots are. People say the battle system was boring, and if you stuck to only fighting the regular monsters, then yeah, it was. But I went after the bigger hunts. I went after the optional bosses, and some of those battles were edge of my seat. I had to use strategy to beat them. I had to make sure I went in to the fights prepared, with the right party set up, or I would be dead within a minute. That is something I haven't had to do since Ruby Weapon in VII. Most of the time, my characters would just be so powerful that I could crush enemies, but not XIII's.
And the world really was pretty. There was a sense on wonder I got when I first got to Grand Pulse and just running around the fields. I wish they had done more with it, but it was still nice.

XIII-2 I felt fixed a lot of problems that XIII had. The world was populated now. It felt like X in that way, in that I could go out in to the wild, but there were also settlements out there. The time travel thing was a bit confusing, but after a bit I was able to figure it out. I also loved that fact that Noel and Serah didn't fall in love, but became pillars of strength for each other. I wish there had been more party members, but overall I feel that this game was generally better than XIII.

Lightning Returns I played because I wanted to see how the story ends. I like Lightning, and while I enjoyed the game, it tripped in a few areas. While changing costumes in battle, and thus gaining new abilities, was great and a nice way to mix things up, I miss having other people in my party. The world was no longer empty like XIII, but it was smaller now, both literally and in terms of imagination. That grand sense of scale was gone because you could only explore four places. Yes, the places changed and new areas were unlocked, but it was still stifling.
Of course, I do think this game did the best job of characterizing Lightning, which is funny, because she spends the whole game talking about how she has no emotions, and yet she shows more here than she did in the other two games combined.
 

Fractral

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I haven't played Lighting Returns and probably won't, but I do have some feedback on the previous two games.

XIII I played until Gran Pulse and then quit because I'd been playing poorly and essentially got stuck in a position where I couldn't kill anything to level up. A few years later I went back and played it through from the beginning having learned how equipment upgrades worked and how to use the Paradigm system and really enjoyed it. I found that I really enjoyed how the battle system was less about choosing the skills to use and more about choosing the roles you wanted in play. When you got into it, making split second paradigm choices and item uses based on the state of the battle became really quite fun.
Elsewhere I was less than impressed- the characters were fine, the story was acceptable, but the lack of freedom and explorable areas set the game back, if only in comparison to other Final Fantasy games.

XIII-2 I felt fixed quite a few problems that the first game suffered from, and I ended up really quite enjoying it. My main problems with it stemmed from it's short length (25 hours is pathetic compared to other main series FF games) and it's horrible DLC that really should have been packaged with the game. There's a casino area, like the one in FFVII- only it's practically empty throughout the game, and needs DLC to unlock the majority of functions. There's an arena where you can fight super tough bosses from previous FF games- only there's absolutely nothing to do there if you don't buy the DLC that adds these bosses. They didn't even bother to put one freaking boss there. Not to mention the 3 large story DLC that are needed to understand quite a lot of what's going on in the convoluted mess of a plot.
Oh, and the ending is abysmal. You're told this bad thing will happen if you kill the bad guy, you find a way to overcome the bad guy without the bad thing happening, and then it goes and happens anyway. Not to mention along the way everything you've spent the game doing is erased and made meaningless. What a waste of time.
 

L. Declis

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I don't have the time to help someone else write his reviews, when a review is a subjective process and I want to know what you think.

I also don't have the personal energy to discuss Lightning Returns, so I shall put it like this.

I liked FF XIII a lot. I loved FF XIII-2. But Lightning Returns made me put down the controller after 7 hours and stop playing or intending to pre-order Final Fantasy ever again, because it showed me just how much Square Enix lost the plot. Lightning Returns broke a 20 year love for Final Fantasy and was riddled with issues in everything from character presentation, story, gameplay, even the menu. I don't even detest it.

No, Lightning Returns can sit next to FFXII in the list of FF games that I cannot stand. I played XIII and liked it. I like FFX-2. I even enjoyed VIII, and all three of these had problems but were still good games with heart in them. But Lightning Returns is utter, complete shit, through and through.
 

Dach

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Oddly enough, I disliked FF13 (preordered), played about 20 hours) and hated FF13-2 (borrowed, got maybe ~5 hours in), however I liked the demo for Lightning Returns so much that I went out and purchased it. The story fluctuates between bland and awful but the combat system was fantastic; managing the flow of battle was much more visceral now that you can directly control the only character that matters and the perfect guard system rewards accuracy and skillfulness. It reminded me a bit of Demon's Souls, which was funny since that's what I traded 13 to a friend for when I couldn't play any more. The balancing of EP abilities in battle with stopping the clock in real time was frantic and enjoyable assuming you want to reach the additional day.

Played: 2,3,6,7,8,9,10,10-2,12,13,13-2,LR,FF Tactics/Advanced/A2
Favorite FFs: FF9 for the story, FF10 for the combat
Favorite Character: Vivi
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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I'm actually at a loss at to which is the WORST of the FF series, the top contenders being VIII, XII, and XIII for various reasons.

Keeping to XIII specifically, there was one thing that always stuck out to me: Lightning is completely POINTLESS. In the initial title, she doesn't really do anything meaningful. She's not central to the plot, she doesn't really make any choices that make any real impact, she's purely reactionary, and she has the personality of a block of wood. However, there's a reason for that: she was never meant to be the main character. Seriously, the protagonists were supposed to be Vanille and Fang...which makes complete sense because THEY'RE the ones who actually matter. They're the core of the narrative, their decisions are the important ones, and their history is what really matters. Instead, for some bizarre reason, they switched it to Lightning because people got confused with the reveal trailer and mistook her for the hero. It's no wonder she was useless despite so much attention being given to her. And that's the thing; the game couldn't even get its characters down properly. We have no one to root for because everyone is just impossible to relate to and the narrative is horrendously sloppy. Of course, if you follow the director's history (Motomu Toriyama) he has a terrible track record, having written some of the WORST plots in Square's history like Front Mission: Evolved (which killed the franchise) and The 3rd Birthday (one of the most misogynistic games I've ever seen). It's actually kind of fascinating how dumb the game is.
 

Redd the Sock

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WEll, skipping the first 2 would put you at a loss. It was one of the few things LR did rather well was build on prior characters and their arcs into a finale that felt desperate and tried to provide closure. Sadly it's success on that front was predicated on how much you liked and were invested in the cast until that point, which most of us weren't. It's hard to pick a singe element of FFXIII's story that made it fall apart: the amount of exposition that was relegated to codex entries, the largely forgettable human villains, the uninteresting Fal'cie and their motivations or lack thereof, the mostly boring cast, the lack of proper downtime to let them develop, the confined world.

Now to be fair, in hindsight I think a lot of the hate for the game came because it was in the wake of Dragon Age origins, and it was hard to take the forced path so soon after being offered a fairly vast world with choices right own to do you want to just shoot the shit with the other characters. It's not unplayable in any way and at least I wanted to know how it ended unlike say FFXII. Still, games like Dragon age and later MAss Effect showed that success in a story is based on the success of the characters, so the frantic plot and lack of time to just get to know them and the world a little better leaves us a bit empty. Even compared to older FF games: the date with Aerith in 7, side quests dedicated to character's pasts in 6 (my favorite), or even the little scripted moments like Cecil protecting Rydia after Mist's destruction, nothing felt like it had emotion. XIII-2 improved a fair bit with a limited cast, most straight forward goal, and at least for Yeul and Noel, a decent backstory with impressive ambiance. Noel's theme and dialogue from the future he came from it very haunting. I was almost looking forward to LR.

Then you start the game and you have every kind of trouble. It's hard not to be put off in a game set 500 years after a cliffhanger ending and it doesn't even really seem to follow it anyway. I'll give it credit. many of its mechanics weren't bad ideas, right down to the concept of the game: save people to get them to "heaven" with hints of you aren't the good guy you think you are. The time constraint immediatly puts you in panic mode, and the lack of direction in that environment doesn't help much. It tries for Majora's Mask, but leaves you feeling you don't have room to screw up, or even look around. I argue that I hated the combat, seeing it as a very limiting level of button mashing (attack, attack, switch, attack, attack, switch) not helped by the dress up mechanic.
 

Ryotknife

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Favorite FF: Final Fantasy Tactics. It is like Game of Thrones Final Fantasy where the jerks win (until the very very VERY end, and even then some jerks still win) and the good people are all killed. To be fair, most of the characters in FFT are killed. The story was amazing, the gameplay was fun albeit frustrating. FFT really deserved a better console than the PS1, one with better graphics and voice acting.

Favorite FF character: Going to take the path less traveled and say Noel. Yes, FF13-2 Noel. He is...a normal human being. I dont mean boring or without personality, he has loads of that, I mean how he handles things is kinda normal. Perhaps not healthy or optimal, but normal.

13-2 light spoilers ahead

Sarah sometimes tries to pry into his painful past, and whereas most FF characters would make a big to-do about not talking about their pasts and looking edgy/mysterious, Noel just puts on a sad smile and says he doesnt want to talk about it right now, but maybe later, thanks for understanding.

When Snow was attacked by a giant flan boss, Noel created distracted it and told Snow to retreat. Snow refused, because he is a macho idiot, and rather than stand there debating with him he said screw it, fine we will take him together. Making the best of a bad situation. Afterwards, Noel reams Snow about his non-nonchalant attitude towards danger and how he cant stand people like him. When Noel and Sarah are alone, Noel admits that he went too far and he can understand why Snow does what he does. In most RPGs, it takes an entire freakin ark for a character to admit a mistake. Noel? Like 5 minutes. How many characters in RPGs admit to respect something they dont agree with?

As they are changing the past, Noel admits that he could die (or more precisely cease to exist) even if they are successful. He doesnt dwell on it, merely stating if it makes other people happy then it would be worth it.

As for FF13-3, i really liked Snow and Noel's ark. You see these characters hit rock bottom and how it changes them. Lightning's....english voice actor does a poor job of expressing emotion. Unlike in FF13 where Lightning displays emotions visually but never had a scene where she had to express her emotions through speech, in FF13-3 there are some scenes where lightning gets emotional and talks, but the voice actor does a poor job at it. The voice actor does a good job of portraying the stoic Lightning, but anything past stoic and it falls apart.
 

Maximum Bert

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Fvourite FF game: FFVII. Its the 2nd one I ever played and the first one I ever bothered to complete its also the only game that has ever changed my mind on an entire genre (RPGs). I just loved the characters the story the imagery and production everything was topnotch except the blocky field models which looked crap when it came out let alone now.

Favourite character: Tifa Lockhart. I like all the characters in VII with the exception of Cait Sith and im a bit lukewarm on Vincent but Tifa is easily my favourite. Initially I hated her thought she was just a pair of tits dressed up but as time wore on I actually really liked the way she was written and I find her one of the strongest characters in the game and in some ways a strong heart for the team. Barret always makes me smile as well because he reminds me of B A Baracus which I dont think can be a coincidence, he gotta be loosely based on that character.

Never played Lightning Returns so dont have an opinion on it but I did finish everything in FFXIII and am right at the end of FFXIII-2 (then I put the controller down). While I dont feel FXIII is as bad as II or XII I still feel its pretty weak the characters are mostly unlikeable the combat system while good really only shines in hard battles after they have taken off the training wheels which is basically post game content which is a really bad design decision imo. Exploration was also limited but I feel this would not have been a problem if the story and characters were not so weak and the combat was so easy that most battles you just pressed auto battle to win.

FFXIII-2 I enjoyed more at the start but as it went on I liked it even less than XIII (hence why I stopped) the characters are slightly better well Serah was but didnt really like Noel much. The combat was even easier and thus the battle system shined even less. Snow wasnt so obnoxious (absolutely loathed and detested him in XIII) but Lightning was even more unlikeable (why do they keep putting this character eberywhere?). The story was also very weak but slightly stronger than XIII imo. In the end their just wasnt enough their to pull me through even though I would estimate I am about 6 hours from 100% completion.

Just for ref:-
FF played: I,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,10-2,12,13,14. 13-2 played but not quite completed Tactics played for about 40 hours but not completed (didnt like it) 13-3 never played.
Favourite FF games in order: 7,6,10,4 the rest 13,13-2,12,2 (how anyone can like this busted piece of garbage ill never know)