Literature - Ressurected (Fair warning of spoilers)

[pigeon_of_doom]

Anyway, I read American Gods first. While it's all good because of mostly the mythology parts (I've always had a thing for obscure gods and deities from cultures from all over the world), some of it was lost to me, just because of the setting: A tour of America starting from a Prison, all the way to the "Center of America", wherever that is.

I had the same issues with it. Also, I didn't find it that well written despite it's attempts at flair, and it seemed longer than it needed to be. Recently got Anasi Boys, so I'll see what I think of that whenever I get to read it.

 

[ThaBenMan]

Never really been able to get into gothic novels. Tried Frankenstein, thought it was ok, but preferred Northanger Abbey which is a much more mundane satire of gothic novels. Well, it only satirised the bestsellers of the time, which were viewed as trashy entertainment for woman to pass the time between housework and squeezing out another member of the family. And yes, you just heard a man confess his liking for a Jane Austen book.

You would probably like a short story by Neil Gaiman, it's called "Forbidden Brides of the Faceless Slaves in the Secret House of the Night of Dread Desire". It makes fun of all the tropes of Gothic literature. Pretty funny stuff.

And that one is also on Fragile Things, IIRC, it's a collection of short stories by Neil Gaiman. Currently reading through it while waiting for my professor during consultation periods. Also, there's a short story there where the world of Sherlock Holmes crossed with Cthulhu mythos. Needless to say, that came as quite a surprise.

You are correct, sir. Fragile Things is awesome, as well as Smoke and Mirrors, his other short story collection. Neil Gaiman rules, you pretty much can't go wrong reading anything by him.

 

[Alex_P]

War/Sci-Fi: Forever War, by Joe Haldeman. An excellent look at future warfare from within. Extraordinarily bleak, violent and, quite frankly, numbing at times, but with a wonderful ending.

Related to that:

Haldeman's Forever Peace is a sort-of sequel to The Forever War. It doesn't share a setting with The Forever War but it shares many of its themes. It's interesting to see how Haldeman's thoughts and style have evolved over the years. I find that, in particular, the relationship in Forever Peace is far more nuanced and well-developed.

John Scalzi's Old Man's War has a similar feel, though without a lot of the Vietnam-veteran bitterness. The universe has an uncanny resemblance to the clusterfuck universe you see in Galactic Civilizations or Master of Orion, but it's all viewed from the eyes of a guy on the ground, alternately slaughtering and struggling to survive against fuzzy aliens and big bug-aliens and tiny little aliens and creepy chicken-flesh-aliens and weird soulless aliens and the like. It's lighter in tone than Haldeman's work but still very thoughtful and well-written.

-- Alex

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

I'm currently reading the short stories of James Tiptree Jr. (Alice Sheldon). Her work stands well as both science fiction and literature.

I think Tiptree very much represents the best of "New Wave" science fiction -- stylistic experimentation, taboo-breaking, sexually and politically charged writing -- without becoming mired in the New Wave's own tropes or its tendency towards arrogance. Her work also helped lay the groundwork for sci-fi's next bit of counterculture (cyberpunk).

Death is big in Tiptree's writing. Not only the death of the body but the death of the spirit, the death of cultures and peoples. For Tiptree, our lives and our selves are fragile, and all too readily we stride forward, confident and oblivious, to meet our own demise. Scientific over-confidence will destroy us. The conglomeration of media will destroy us. Curiosity and wanderlust will destroy us. Xenophilia will destroy us. Sexual aggression will destroy us. One man's love of nature will destroy us. One man's simple desire for home will destroy us.

-- Alex

I have recently started reading Tiptree myself, in part because I went to WisCon and it seemed a shame to attend the Tiptree Awards without having read any Tiptree. Personally, I think Tiptree is amazing, such a variety of styles and all suited to their themes. If you like Tiptree, you should definitely read Joanna Russ, who was a big influence on Tiptree and a lot of other science fiction writers of the Seventies SF renaissance.

I also consider her one of the first writers in what would be called, a decade or two later, the Post-Modern style. The Female Man is, in my opinion, a thoroughly deconstructed novel on every level. Politics, characterization, plot, setting, narrative technique, the reader him- or herself, they are all vivisected and one of the most challenging aspects of reading it is the necessity of reassembling it as you go. In doing so, you are forced to consider each aspect individually and as part of a whole.

Part of what she does is to play chicken with the reader. You keep on expecting her to ease up, to throttle back on the technique, on the wit, on the anger, on the complexity, and she just doesn't. The cognitive impact (and I use that word deliberately) of her work is such that a lot of people really hate her work, and yet they keep reading it and recommending it to other people. I think this is why, though she is not one of the Big Name SF Writers of her generation, like Sturgeon or Philip K. Dick, but somehow has managed to stay in print all this time. She keeps going out of print, only to be revived a few years later. There was one point at which I kept three copies of The Female Man on an ongoing basis, because I kept lending it out and not getting it back.

 

[GenHellspawn]

After recently reading The Doll's House, by Neil Gaiman, I find it hard to realize what people like so much about him. Judging the whole of his writing by one book may be a little harsh, but his style reeks of unoriginality and dullness, and the connection between the real world and the "dream" world near the end seemed rather pointless. There is one chapter I liked, though, that consists of the Sandman going back in time and meeting the same man in the same bar every hundred years. Other than that, though, I found it to be utterly average for all the hype he has gotten.

 

[Alex_P]

I have recently started reading Tiptree myself, in part because I went to WisCon and it seemed a shame to attend the Tiptree Awards without having read any Tiptree. Personally, I think Tiptree is amazing, such a variety of styles and all suited to their themes. If you like Tiptree, you should definitely read Joanna Russ, who was a big influence on Tiptree and a lot of other science fiction writers of the Seventies SF renaissance.

I'll definitely add Joanna Russ to my list... I think I'll pick up The Female Man after I get through Warchild (Escapist suggestion from Amanda [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/profiles/view/high_castle]) and The Things They Carried (Seth [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/profiles/view/wilsonscrazybed]'s suggestion).

I think Octavia Butler deserves a shout-out while we're at it. I liked her short stories. I admit that I can't actually remember what half of them actually were, but I still found them engaging. (Thinking about Butler's work brings to mind another short story I liked, Benjamin Rosenbaum's Start the Clock [http://www.benjaminrosenbaum.com/stories/start.the.clock.html]. I can't really explain what's so great about it. But, hey, it's online.)

-- Alex

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

I think Octavia Butler deserves a shout-out while we're at it. I liked her short stories. I admit that I can't actually remember what half of them actually were, but I still found them engaging. (Thinking about Butler's work brings to mind another short story I liked, Benjamin Rosenbaum's Start the Clock [http://www.benjaminrosenbaum.com/stories/start.the.clock.html]. I can't really explain what's so great about it. But, hey, it's online.)

-- Alex

Oh yes! I remember reading the Lilith's Brood (a.k.a. Xenogenesis) books and feeling betrayed by the story, in the best possible way. Again, it's the author playing chicken with the reader. "We are going to be all right, right? The human race, I mean. The aliens don't really win, do they?" Well, yes and no. Among other things, it's a great exploration of what it's like to be on the shitty end of biological determinism and eugenics.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Also, graphic novels.

I've never actually read any. Considered it once or twice.

In that case, I'd strongly recommend V for Vendetta. A lot of people will say Watchmen, but I actually prefered V, mainly because I thought the story was much more interesting and believable. Also, V himself is just such a brilliant character it's hard not to like him; he's better than any of the characters in Watchmen.

Oh, and the graphic novel is better than the film, unsurprisingly.

I absolutely agree with you. I think the end of Watchmen doesn't just jump the shark, it jumps a mutant psychic shark from space. V for Vendetta is better, but more difficult. And if you want to read Moore at his most literary, From Hell is a masterpiece. The movie adaptation I loathed with the fiery passion of a thousand suns.

After recently reading The Doll's House, by Neil Gaiman, I find it hard to realize what people like so much about him. Judging the whole of his writing by one book may be a little harsh, but his style reeks of unoriginality and dullness, and the connection between the real world and the "dream" world near the end seemed rather pointless. Other than that, though, I found it to be utterly average for all the hype he has gotten.

Oh, thank you. I only like Gaiman when he's paired up with Dave McKean, whose art adds an edge and originality that Gaiman himself lacks. I fail to understand why the comics world continues to tonguebathe him at every opportunity. If you absolutely must read a Gaiman graphic novel, make it The Tragical Comedy of Mr. Punch. McKean's artwork is astounding.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Oh, thank you. I only like Gaiman when he's paired up with Dave McKean, whose art adds an edge and originality that Gaiman himself lacks. I fail to understand why the comics world continues to tonguebathe him at every opportunity.

If you've never read his co-authored work with my good friend T. Pratchett, 'Good Omens', I highly suggest you get your hands on it. ASAP. You get a story filled with weight and relevance steered in directions only conceivable by the man who brought us the Death of Rats. It's basically a study of 'what if we took the Gaiman out of Gaiman's books, and replaced it with... say... not him?' I've always liked his work to an extent, but you haven't seen it until you've seen it like this.

Worth it entirely for the gags on the first 5 pages, and what you get at the ending makes it possibly the best investment you can make in paper since they started using it as a currency. It used to be my favorite book, usurped recently by TP's 'Nation'.

I could write an essay on 'Nation'... and I did, in fact. Get it (the book, not my crappy essay).

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

I've you've never read his co-authored work with my good friend T. Pratchett, 'Good Omens', I highly suggest you get your hands on it. ASAP. You get a story filled with weight and relevance steered in directions only conceivable by the man who brought us the Death of Rats. It's basically a study of 'what if we took the Gaiman' out of Gaiman's books, and replaced it with... say... not him? I've always liked his work to an extent, but you haven't seen it until you've seen it like this.

I have a friend who has a similar reaction to mine when it comes to Gaiman, and she likes Good Omens as well. Gaiman comes up with clever ideas, it's just that his execution is bland. Pair him up with someone like McKean or Pratchett and it's really good work. Just don't let him cross the street by himself.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

I didn't know people were still surprised by how depressing Thomas Hardy is.

The whole "all men are scum" angle did get to me a bit, as well.

Don't ever read Tehanu then. A feminist re imagining of an iron age fantasy world gives any indignant modern woman a lot a fuel.

Really? I really liked that book, consider myself modern, and am frequently indignant. Just goes to show how two different people can get two different takes on the same book. I have actually known other people, who happen to be women, who don't like Tehanu, but that is because they felt it was inconsistent with the themes and tone of the previous books in the series. The fifth and last book of the Earthsea series, The Other Wind no doubt gets a similar reception from them.

 

[Anachronism]

I think the end of Watchmen doesn't just jump the shark, it jumps a mutant psychic shark from space.

This was my main problem with Watchmen. It was all going brilliantly right up until Chapter 12 when we it cuts to an image of the squid. It just seemed ridiculous; it stretched credibility even in a graphic novel where one of the characters is basically God. After I'd finished it, I couldn't help but try and think of ways that the ending could have been improved, and the way I thought would make the most sense turned out to be what they did in the film: convince people it was Dr Manhattan who blew up New York. That solves the issue of uniting humanity nicely, and you don't need to worry about psychic alien squids.

 

[pigeon_of_doom]

Really? I really liked that book, consider myself modern, and am frequently indignant. Just goes to show how two different people can get two different takes on the same book. I have actually known other people, who happen to be women, who don't like Tehanu, but that is because they felt it was inconsistent with the themes and tone of the previous books in the series. The fifth and last book of the Earthsea series, The Other Wind no doubt gets a similar reception from them.

While I haven't read the Earthsea books that came after Tehanu, I would probably agree with the issues some of your friends had with Tehanu. It was just too much of a shift from the previous books, and changed the characters too much for me to be comfortable with it. I found the feminism in it to be extremely one-sided and irritating, as Le Guin kept explaining her views rather than letting the plot demonstrate it. And then the ending seemed to be a blatant deus ex machina on the first reading, I'm not sure if I'll still hold that opinion next time I read it. It was an interesting read, and an Earthsea character study could have been interesting, but it got to the point that it was more anti-masculine than feminist to me.

Among all the other issues I have with it, I just think Le Guin lacked the required insight to make a meaningful deconstruction of such an anachronistic society. It was a bit like Atlas Shrugged apparently is meant to be like (haven't read it yet) an entire fictional world created peopled with straw men to knock down. And at least Rand didn't equate a persons worth with the amount of dishes they clean (a moment that really annoyed me).

I tend to rant a bit about Tehanu. It possibly makes me sound extremely anti-feminist when I don't actually mind the book that much, it's just that some aspects really drag it down in my eyes.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

War/Sci-Fi: Forever War, by Joe Haldeman. An excellent look at future warfare from within. Extraordinarily bleak, violent and, quite frankly, numbing at times, but with a wonderful ending.

Related to that:

Haldeman's Forever Peace is a sort-of sequel to The Forever War. It doesn't share a setting with The Forever War but it shares many of its themes. It's interesting to see how Haldeman's thoughts and style have evolved over the years. I find that, in particular, the relationship in Forever Peace is far more nuanced and well-developed.

John Scalzi's Old Man's War has a similar feel, though without a lot of the Vietnam-veteran bitterness. The universe has an uncanny resemblance to the clusterfuck universe you see in Galactic Civilizations or Master of Orion, but it's all viewed from the eyes of a guy on the ground, alternately slaughtering and struggling to survive against fuzzy aliens and big bug-aliens and tiny little aliens and creepy chicken-flesh-aliens and weird soulless aliens and the like. It's lighter in tone than Haldeman's work but still very thoughtful and well-written.

-- Alex

I neglected to mention Forever Peace, simply because I don't feel it's as visceral as Forever War. It's certainly the more balanced piece, but I feel that Haldeman falls into the same trap as Heinlein in Starship Troopers, in that he makes his soldiers into unstoppable demigods, removing a significant element of risk from the series. Though this is counterbalanced by setting the war against his fellow men, rather than aliens.

 

[Loki B]

Neil Gaimans American Gods is my favorite book, I think I've read it about eight times now, I always bring a battered and trusty copy with me whenever I travel somewhere. It's a roadmovie/thriller that's scary, melancholic and at times hilarious. I read it for the first time without knowing anything about the plot and that made it better I think as reviews of the book tend to give too much away of the things you should get to figure out yourself. If you haven't read it give it a try.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Really? I really liked that book, consider myself modern, and am frequently indignant. Just goes to show how two different people can get two different takes on the same book. I have actually known other people, who happen to be women, who don't like Tehanu, but that is because they felt it was inconsistent with the themes and tone of the previous books in the series. The fifth and last book of the Earthsea series, The Other Wind no doubt gets a similar reception from them.

While I haven't read the Earthsea books that came after Tehanu, I would probably agree with the issues some of your friends had with Tehanu. It was just too much of a shift from the previous books, and changed the characters too much for me to be comfortable with it. I found the feminism in it to be extremely one-sided and irritating, as Le Guin kept explaining her views rather than letting the plot demonstrate it. And then the ending seemed to be a blatant deus ex machina on the first reading, I'm not sure if I'll still hold that opinion next time I read it. It was an interesting read, and an Earthsea character study could have been interesting, but it got to the point that it was more anti-masculine than feminist to me.

I can see where you would get that read off it, but keep in mind, that's mostly Tenar's headspace you are in. She's getting to be an old woman, and as you may or may not have noticed, old women often lose patience with young men. I don't know if this is something you have access to, or if this is a private thing among women, but middle-aged women gripe about men alot. It's just the flipside of the way men gripe about women, their incomprehensibility, their moodiness, their expectation that men can read their minds, etc. If it were told from the perspective on an older man, the book might have been full of that. So keep in mind that Tenar might not be the vehicle for the author's views, she might just be a perceptive depiction of an older woman griping to herself. Or those might in fact be the author's observations and opinions about the behavior of men in her experience.

There was a very long period of time between the first three books of the Earthsea series, which she thought she had finished, and her re-opening the story in Tehanu. In that time, she became interested in Taoism and other eastern philosophy, and I think it does really shows in the tone of final two Earthsea books. The first three are much more a traditional western Hero's Journey.

I think the end of Watchmen doesn't just jump the shark, it jumps a mutant psychic shark from space.

This was my main problem with Watchmen. It was all going brilliantly right up until Chapter 12 when we it cuts to an image of the squid. It just seemed ridiculous; it stretched credibility even in a graphic novel where one of the characters is basically God. After I'd finished it, I couldn't help but try and think of ways that the ending could have been improved, and the way I thought would make the most sense turned out to be what they did in the film: convince people it was Dr Manhattan who blew up New York. That solves the issue of uniting humanity nicely, and you don't need to worry about psychic alien squids.

I also reeeeeaally don't like Dave Gibbon's artwork for the book. I mean, it's appropriate to have the traditional square-jawed hero style but I can't make myself like it.

If I were to recommend a graphic novel in the superhero genre, it would be Kingdom Come which is an epic take on the entire DC universe. The artwork is astounding, fully painted rather than inked and colored, and the artist Alex Ross had some of the most dynamic page composition I've ever seen.

Lab, I'm actually really surprised you haven't read any graphic novels, given that you are an artist yourself. The way script and pictures interact for overall storytelling effect is very interesting on its own. It's sometimes compared to the script/picture interaction in movies, but really, comics are their own thing.

One more graphic novel recommendation - Kabuki by David Mack. The perfect illustration of the intimate relation of picture and story, and a very, very compelling read. They are beautifully illustrated, especially once he breaks off fully into fully painted artwork. Read up through Metamorphosis and then stop, unless you are really in love with the series, because after that he just got lazy, started repeating himself visually, and the story lost all plot momentum and devolved into pseudo-philosophical wankery.

 

[Labyrinth]

Lab, I'm actually really surprised you haven't read any graphic novels, given that you are an artist yourself. The way script and pictures interact for overall storytelling effect is very interesting on its own. It's sometimes compared to the script/picture interaction in movies, but really, comics are their own thing.

One more graphic novel recommendation - Kabuki by David Mack. The perfect illustration of the intimate relation of picture and story, and a very, very compelling read. They are beautifully illustrated, especially once he breaks off fully into fully painted artwork. Read up through Metamorphosis and then stop, unless you are really in love with the series, because after that he just got lazy, started repeating himself visually, and the story lost all plot momentum and devolved into pseudo-philosophical wankery.

It's just something I never got around to, what with my endless numbers of novels on the "READ!!!" list. Thanks for the recommendation, I'll definitely take a look.

Sartre's Nausea is treating me very well. It's rare that I pick up a book which has me immersed for hours, though pausing every so often to stare out into space and contemplate what is being said. Nausea is that kind of novel, endlessly philosophical (it is a supposed 'founding work' of existentialism) and very well written.

I just wish I'd decided to investigate it before now.

Sartre uses very visceral imagery to hint at the protagonist's inability to come to grips with his situation. The sickness that he feels is a result of that slow realisation, arriving in bouts, with an object or location suddenly 'existing' in the mind.

 

[pigeon_of_doom]

I can see where you would get that read off it, but keep in mind, that's mostly Tenar's headspace you are in. She's getting to be an old woman, and as you may or may not have noticed, old women often lose patience with young men. I don't know if this is something you have access to, or if this is a private thing among women, but middle-aged women gripe about men alot. It's just the flipside of the way men gripe about women, their incomprehensibility, their moodiness, their expectation that men can read their minds, etc. If it were told from the perspective on an older man, the book might have been full of that. So keep in mind that Tenar might not be the vehicle for the author's views, she might just be a perceptive depiction of an older woman griping to herself. Or those might in fact be the author's observations and opinions about the behavior of men in her experience.

There was a very long period of time between the first three books of the Earthsea series, which she thought she had finished, and her re-opening the story in Tehanu. In that time, she became interested in Taoism and other eastern philosophy, and I think it does really shows in the tone of final two Earthsea books. The first three are much more a traditional western Hero's Journey.

Hmm, good point about it possibly being Tenar's opinions carrying over into the narrative rather than Le Guin's. As it only ever happened on a much smaller scale in the other books, I just assumed it was coming from Le Guin. I prefer your version though, as reading Tehanu made me lose a lot of respect for Le Guin as I saw it as her glorifying the mystique of women and their hidden depths, while showing every man who didn't help with the housework as brutes.

And I thought the whole Earthsea series had heavy Taoist influences? Seeing the magic system at least seems to be based on a similar idea of balance. The 18 year (?) gap between the third and fourth book certainly shows though. I thought I would welcome a change from the usual coming of age stories she wrote for the first three books, how wrong I was.

 

[Zombie_Fish]

Spoiler: A Scanner Darkly

Currently, my personal favourite is A Scanner Darkly by Philip K Dick. There are several things I like about this book. The fact that it's a sci-fi book with real world influences. The Fact that the movie is an absolute classic and is an insight into the drug world, looking at the controversy of drugs and also the hypocrisy of drug firms and rehabilitation clinics in the fact that if these drugs didn't exist, they would make no money, so in the book, the firms actually manufacture the drugs.

I also like how the character changes throughout the book. By the end of the book he has become two different people. The drug user Bob Arctor, and the anonymous drug agent Frank, ordered by the agency to look at and monitor Bob Arctor. This change comes as a result of the effects of the drug he's taking, called Substance D, which splits the bonds between the lateral side of the brain (left side) and the creative side of the brain (right side), and so not sensing the lateral side, the right side tries to make up for it, so he gets two personalities, to get the message of the book across, that drug abuse has consequences. This can be seen right at the start as the first character goes insane in the first few pages due to his addiction.

True, some points are confusing in the book, but all in all, I would highly suggest it to read.