ME3 End: Do you agree with the Reapers?

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Jfswift

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**Spoiler** discussion topic for the antagonist of ME3.

So, knowing now what the Reapers and Catalyst's goals were, do you agree with them? That's it's necessary to wipe out all advanced civilization every 50,000 years?

I don't care for the Reapers myself as their existence seems to be based on a fear, although, still I can understand their mission at least. Without them, who's to say another more powerful organic/inorganic race could take over and/or cause greater problems for everyone in the galaxy?
 

The_Blue_Rider

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Not really, what gives the Reapers the right to do what they do?
Especially when its shown Synthetics and Organics can co exist (Geth and Quarians)
 

Fappy

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I like playing a franchise for 100+ hours trying to fight a foe the entire time only to find out they were the alleged "good guys" all along in the last 5 minutes...

Also, inb4 Xzibit meme.
 

SajuukKhar

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Well if

A leads to An, An leads to B, B leads to Bn, and Bn leads to 0A

With
A=organics
An=many organics
B=Synthetics
Bn=many synthetics
0A= no organics

Then the most logical response would be to destroy A to prevent B from happening.

Also while they could just destroy B the fact that A remains as it, i.e. at the point that they could make AI, was means the next occurrence of B would be significantly more soon then had they just destroyed A, which would cause a drastic increase in resources needed to fuel what would become an eternal continuous slaughter of B.

It is an exceedingly cold train of though, but a logical one in its reasoning.
 

IMGF

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Um, no.

Because the "solution" is the most ridiculous idea ever. While it sort of make sense to get rid of advanced lifeforms to protect lower forms of life from being destroyed by the synthetics that the higher forms of life made, just looking at the Geth/Quarian peace situation completely blows the God Child's theory that synthetics will always destroy organics out of the water.
 

SajuukKhar

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IMGF said:
Um, no.

Because the "solution" is the most ridiculous idea ever. While it sort of make sense to get rid of advanced lifeforms to protect lower forms of life from being destroyed by the synthetics that the higher forms of life made, just looking at the Geth/Quarian peace situation completely blows the God Child's theory that synthetics will always destroy organics out of the water.
And you are complexity ignoring the fact tat the ONLY reason peace was able to be made between the two races was because of the impending threat of total annihilation by the Reapers.

Had there been no reapers there would have been no sovereign, no Saren going rouge, no Geth attack on Eden prime, no Shepard doing ANYTHING in ME1, no Legion being built to find Shepard, no Shep finding Legion, no bringing together of the two races.

Had the Reapers not shown up the Geth would have remained as they were, behind the Perseus veil suffering from on again off again attacked by vengeful Quarrian's and other organics hateful of AI which very likely could have led to an AI/Organic war, despite the Geth's want for peace.

Do not try to take actions that only resulted because of the existence of the Reapers as proof of what things would be like without them.

It is terribly flawed logic.

Secondly because pace was made does not guarantee that it would last, the prospect for an AI/Organic war are just as likely after peace was made as they were before peace was made.

Nor does the fact peace was made with the Geth mean future synthetic races relationships would turn out the same
 

IMGF

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SajuukKhar said:
IMGF said:
Um, no.

Because the "solution" is the most ridiculous idea ever. While it sort of make sense to get rid of advanced lifeforms to protect lower forms of life from being destroyed by the synthetics that the higher forms of life made, just looking at the Geth/Quarian peace situation completely blows the God Child's theory that synthetics will always destroy organics out of the water.
And you are complexity ignoring the fact tat the ONLY reason peace was able to be made between the two races was because of the impending threat of total annihilation by the Reapers.

Had there been no reapers there would have been no sovereign, no Saren going rouge, no Geth attack on Eden prime, no Shepard doing ANYTHING in ME1, no Legion being built to find Shepard, no Shep finding Legion, no bringing together of the two races.

Had the Reapers not shown up the Geth would have remained as they were, begin the Perseus veil and on again off again attacked by vengeful Quarrian's and other organics hateful of AI which very likely could have led to an AI/Organic war, despite the Geth's want for peace.

Do not try to take actions that only resulted because of the existence of the Reapers as proof of what things would be like without them.

It is terribly flawed logic.
But that is all a "what if" statement.

You can't say with any sort of proof that the Quarians and Geth would have never come to peace without the Reaper invasion. There is no reason to believe that. I could easily argue that Shepard would become a Specter anyway with Nihlus giving him/her a positive review from the Eden Prime mission. Once Shepard became a Specter, there would be a complete possibility of having to deal with the geth situation eventually, either because the quarians would be going extinct and would need help or because the geth would try to expand to other colonies and the Council would need to step in.

If Shepard is the same person who was able to orchestrate peace in ME3, then Shepard should be able to do the same thing without the threat of Reaper invasion. It's not flawed logic at all.
 

SajuukKhar

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IMGF said:
But that is all a "what if" statement.

You can't say with any sort of proof that the Quarians and Geth would have never come to peace without the Reaper invasion. There is no reason to believe that. I could easily argue that Shepard would become a Specter anyway with Nihlus giving him/her a positive review from the Eden Prime mission. Once Shepard became a Specter, there would be a complete possibility of having to deal with the geth situation eventually, either because the quarians would be going extinct and would need help or because the geth would try to expand to other colonies and the Council would need to step in.

If Shepard is the same person who was able to orchestrate peace in ME3, then Shepard should be able to do the same thing without the threat of Reaper invasion. It's not flawed logic at all.
I never stated they could never make peace, only that things would continue as they were which was down a path that leads opposite of that.

Also peace is only temporary, even IF Shepard made peace with the Geth in a Reaper-less universe the simple fact of the matter is that it could not last.

Eventually the Geth, or some other Synthetic race, would wage war on organics.
 

Saladfork

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You protect organics fro synthetics by killing organics with your synthetics.

Um... Here's an idea, catalyst, why don't you use your invincible, unstoppable fleet of ega-ships to protect organics from synthetics? Wouldn't that be less effort and less risk for the same result?

Also I' getting really sick of these advertising captchas, especially when they don't even make sense.
 

SajuukKhar

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Saladfork said:
You protect organics fro synthetics by killing organics with your synthetics.

Um... Here's an idea, catalyst, why don't you use your invincible, unstoppable fleet of ega-ships to protect organics from synthetics? Wouldn't that be less effort and less risk for the same result?

Also I' getting really sick of these advertising captchas, especially when they don't even make sense.
While at first glace just killing the synthetics seems like the better option the fact that it leaves the organic races at a level of technological development at which they could create AI means the next occurrence of synthetics being made is exponentially hastened and with that comes a exponential increase of the probability that the new synthetic race could find a way to beat The Reapers.

Not only that it would drastically increase the rate at which The Reapers need to harvest resources from planets, which in turn increases the rates that said planets would be depleted, and it would increase the need for organics to be harvested to make more Reapers to replace the ones lost in the various synthetic wars, which would quite probably peeve off the organic races causing The Reapers to probably have to kill them off anyways.

Statistically it is safest to just kill off all advanced organic life.
 

IMGF

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SajuukKhar said:
I never stated they could never make peace, only that things would continue as they were which was down a path that leads opposite of that.

Also peace is only temporary, even IF Shepard made peace with the Geth in a Reaper-less universe the simple fact of the matter is that it could not last.

Eventually the Geth, or some other Synthetic race, would wage war on organics.
But wiping out organics and synthetics to prevent war is a tad bit overkill. It's like doing chemotherapy because you're tired of shaving your head.

War is always going to happen, whether it be between organics and organics, or synthetics against organics, or even synthetics against synthetics. Stepping in and saying, "Excuse me, we're tired of you killing each other so we're just going to kill all of you" doesn't make sense.

I would think that the better solution would be for the Reapers to have come in, told everyone to shut up and teach organics to see the value of synthetic life that would be taught to other advanced lifeforms as they came to the Citadel, a much better solution than simply killing everything.

Imagine if the Reapers had taught the Protheans on how synthetic life needed to be treated equally as an organic since their race had evolved to the point where their technology had evolved itself to the point where the technology itself could be considered its own lifeform. And then the Protheans would have mentored the Asari and shown them how to treat synthetic, which would have spread to all the other races of the galaxy eventually. This seems to me a better way for the Reapers to exist as a mentor to advanced lifeforms instead of just the harbinger of total annihilation.

If we're going to be doing "what if" scenarios, might as well come up with one that ends war, not just keep repeating it.
 

Jfswift

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The_Blue_Rider said:
Not really, what gives the Reapers the right to do what they do?
Especially when its shown Synthetics and Organics can co exist (Geth and Quarians)
I think the whole idea was they prevented something worse from appearing by preventing any lifeform (synthetic or organic) from gaining too much power. It's not about organics vs. synthetics but rather control, order, protection (provided in a very flawed way though).
 

SajuukKhar

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IMGF said:
But wiping out organics and synthetics to prevent war is a tad bit overkill. It's like doing chemotherapy because you're tired of shaving your head.

War is always going to happen, whether it be between organics and organics, or synthetics against organics, or even synthetics against synthetics. Stepping in and saying, "Excuse me, we're tired of you killing each other so we're just going to kill all of you" doesn't make sense.

I would think that the better solution would be for the Reapers to have come in, told everyone to shut up and teach organics to see the value of synthetic life that would be taught to other advanced lifeforms as they came to the Citadel, a much better solution than simply killing everything.

Imagine if the Reapers had taught the Protheans on how synthetic life needed to be treated equally as an organic since their race had evolved to the point where their technology had evolved itself to the point where the technology itself could be considered its own lifeform. The seems to me a better way for the Reapers to exist as a mentor to advanced lifeforms instead of just the harbinger of total annihilation.
The Reapers only kill advanced organic life, compared to the future eventuality of a synthetic/organic war in which the synthetics kill ALL organic life off, the killing off of only some organic life is actually a far less harsh result then the alternative.
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Secondly if you think that organics would ever listen to The Reapers you have a highly over optimistic view of organic life. History has shown time and time again that Humanity will intentionally do things that are bad for them because someone told them not to do so.

Even if god himself came down and told someone not to do something because it was bad there would be TONS of people who would do it anyway. It is a simple fact humans will not do what is in their own best interest.
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Also If there was to be war between organics and synthetics organics would be the ones to start it, we always are.

It isn't about teaching synthetics how to be nice to organics, in fact its the opposite. There is no way to get organics to be tolerant of thing that are not them without total and complete mind control.
 

IMGF

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SajuukKhar said:
The Reapers only kill advanced organic life, compared to the future eventuality of a Synthetic/organic war in which the synthetics kill ALL organic life off, the killing off of only some organic life is actually a far less harsh result then the alternative.
Yeah, that makes sense as far as the game goes to explain it. But making that judgement call of synthetics never being able to achieve peace with an organic race and that organic races not being able to learn from the mistakes of the past still seems incredibly flawed to me.

I still would have preferred a solution that didn't include wiping out advanced organic lifeforms and their synthetic creations to keep lower lifeforms alive.

It's obvious that the Mass Effect team wrote themselves into a hole and that what they gave us was the only way to really write themselves out of it, but the overall premise still feels flawed.

[hr]

I don't see why humanity can't be given a chance to listen. Trying to achieve peace seems like a better alternative to just assume and kill everything. Even if humanity doesn't listen, then wipe out humanity and try again with other organic species. Not every organic race acts the same as humanity.
 

SajuukKhar

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IMGF said:
Yeah, that makes sense as far as the game goes to explain it. But making that judgement call of synthetics never being able to achieve peace with an organic race and that organic races not being able to learn from the mistakes of the past still seems incredibly flawed to me.

I still would have preferred a solution that didn't include wiping out advanced organic lifeforms and their synthetic creations to keep lower lifeforms alive.

It's obvious that the Mass Effect team wrote themselves into a hole and that what they gave us was the only way to really write themselves out of it, but the overall premise still feels flawed.
Human history has shown time and time again that we are 100% incapable of preventing repeats of past mistakes from reoccurring at some point in the futue.

We may be able to do it for some time but it is fact we will make the same screw-ups again eventually.

Logically, and the Reapers being machines work on logic not emotion, it is the safest and most sound plan to just kill everything over and over.
 

IMGF

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SajuukKhar said:
it is the safest and most sound plan to just kill everything over and over.
It's the easiest plan. There's no effort in that plan and there's no understanding of the value of life.

Which makes sense for the Reapers, but it's also why I believe that the Reapers were so incredibly wrong in their solution.
 

Nicolairigel

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I really felt that their reason was more of wiping out larger advanced civilizations to let lesser bottom feeders grow, mainly to push evolution which would grow obsolete with technology. I actually like yatzhee's take on it, how the ending wanted to express a theme of entropy.

So do I agree? I dunno, if what I feel their purpose is, pushing evolution and such, then yes I do believe they do have a logical reasoning to do so. I still don't agree with the idea, though, but they aren't suppose to have the same idea as me.
 

SajuukKhar

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IMGF said:
It's the easiest plan. There's no effort in that plan and there's no understanding of the value of life.

Which makes sense for the Reapers, but it's also why I believe that the Reapers were so incredibly wrong in their solution.
The thing is though value doesn't exist.

It is a construct of the human imagination, it exist solely as an opinion in the minds of each individual.

Much like good/evil, right/wrong, justice, equality, morality, ethics, and any other system that places a value of some sort on something they are the wild imaginings of the human mind that we created to cope with a world that was beyond our current understanding, and they simply do not exist.

I highly doubt The Reapers being as old and as developed as they are still suffer from such petty mental limitations.
 

rickthetrick

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I think maybe it started as the best solution to a problem, but was warped into a cycle of self preservation masked as control. They need organic material to sustain themselves as a race. It's like Edi said underneath it all the reapers are just selfish.