My incredibly important opinions on Mirror's Edge Catalyst.

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Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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Short version: I love it, but I'm aware that's largely because it happens to hit a lot of my personal predilections, much like the first game.

It falls very short on a few things though.

Firstly, for a game that supposedly takes place in a bustling futuristic metropolis the world feels awfully uninhabited. You'll occasionally see NPCs in unreachable ares or behind windows and you'll hear snatches of conversation while running past buildings but the only NPCs you can interact with in gameplay are the enemies you fight or flee from and quest-givers who stand unmoving in place.

This could be somewhat justified by the setting. After all, you're running about on rooftops. Not many people are going to be walking around on the roof of a city building. However in later areas you're charging through penthouses and rooftop cafes and sun lounges and even people's apartments. All areas that should be inhabited and yet are eternally empty. I read a comment somewhere that described it as being alone in an Apple store after everyone has clocked out.

This starts to bleed into the story as well. There's not much in the way of world building because most of the world is happening somewhere else, maybe thirty stories under your feet. Even a few major story points have a tendency to happen way over there or out the window.

I imagine this was largely a money-saving measure and I'm sympathetic to that. Saves a bunch on animation and scripting and AI and who knows what else would be needed to have decent NPCs in an open world game. The game overall gives the impression of being a relatively low-budget passion project that EA threw to DICE in order to keep them off the windowsill between Battlefield releases, but I do wish they'd been able to put more into this.

Secondly, the overworld map is design isn't great. As someone who has gradually come to despise open world games it feels weird to say this, but it isn't quite open enough. It's less open world and more a tangle of semi-linear paths. So traversing from A to B isn't a case of finding the most efficient path but rather a matter of just using the exact same route you did from B to A ten minutes ago. There's a fast travel system to cut down on excessive repetition, but players will become very familiar with certain parts of the map.

Lastly, the combat is... oddly balanced. It isn't hard, in fact it's very forgiving. Which is kind of the problem. It's very easy to be bad at it because the game isn't hard enough to force you to improve. But it will make you feel like a clumsy oaf if you don't get good at it. I'm a quick learner and once I did get good I was having a fine old time feeling like a petite human wrecking ball. However I get the distinct impression that not everyone had that experience. I saw a lot of 'Let's Play' footage of people being terrible at the combat and getting frustrated but not actually improving because it's easy enough that one can stumble through it while still being shit at it.

But that's just, like, my opinion man.
 

JUMBO PALACE

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Zhukov said:
Secondly, the overworld map is design isn't great. As someone who has gradually come to despite open world games it feels weird to say this, but it isn't quite open enough. It's less open world and more a tangle of semi-linear paths. So traversing from A to B isn't a case of finding the most efficient path but rather a matter of just using the exact same route you did from B to A ten minutes ago. There's a fast travel system to cut down on excessive repetition, but players will become very familiar with certain parts of the map.
Glad you're enjoying the game! I bought it a couple of weeks ago and was having fun but put it down for Blood and Wine and now Forza. I really should get back to it.

I quoted this portion because I agree completely and it's an aspect of the game I have strong feelings about. The city is horribly laid out making it extremely difficult to traverse large sections of the open world without pouring over the map or using runner vision. Routes that seem like they should make sense end up bringing you to huge chasms or to a dead end rather than a destination. Your description of it as a "tangle of semi-linear paths" is spot on and something I really wish was different. The only other thing is it has typical open-world syndrome with a bunch of useless activities included because they're supposed to be there. I don't find any of the side characters or activities much fun and consider them map clutter.

Other than that, I think the game is pretty fun. It's beautiful to look at (especially at 144hz) and the running feels great which is what I liked about the first game. I really should get back to playing it.
 

Zhukov

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Samtemdo8 said:
What open world games have you played that made you start to hate Open World?
Every single one. You name it and, if I've played it, it has contributed to my contempt for open worlds. I consider them the 2010s equivalent of the glut of 2D platformers in the 90s and the plague of modern military shooters in the 2000s

Except Mount & Blade. For all its clunkiness and utter lack of polish, that game did it right.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Sep 1, 2010
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Zhukov said:
Samtemdo8 said:
What open world games have you played that made you start to hate Open World?
Every single one. You name it and, if I've played it, it has contributed to my contempt for open worlds. I consider them the 2010s equivalent of the glut of 2D platformers in the 90s and the plague of modern military shooters in the 2000s

Except Mount & Blade. For all its clunkiness and utter lack of polish, that game did it right.
I completely agree. Not many devs (even Rockstar) understand how to make an open world. Most just assume they create a city or whatever and THEN create the missions just hoping it's all good. What you do is create the missions first, THEN put those missions on a blank canvas to populate the world. That's how Mercenaries did it way back and it's still one of the very best open world games because care was taken to such things as enemy placement.

OT: I have Mirror's Edge Catalyst but barely played it so far, mainly just due to barely playing video games the last couple months. I thing I did feel with the little time I've had with it was that the level design just isn't as tight as the 1st game. There were the sections where it was pure speed but you also had almost puzzle-like areas where you had to figure out how to get from A to B.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Zhukov said:
Except Mount & Blade. For all its clunkiness and utter lack of polish, that game did it right.
That might be because in M&B the open world is the meat and bones of the entire experience. Most games, even sandbox games like GTA or AC, have their gameplay almost completely detached from the open world. The open world serves, at best, as an obstacle or experience to face while you get to the segments that contain the engaging gameplay. In M&B the open world is where the gameplay happens, whether it is chasing down bandits, attacking enemies or just building your army. Take away the open world from most games and you still have a story to be told and loads of gameplay activities, take it away from M&B and that game is nothing but a rather barren combat simulator.
 

Bad Jim

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Phoenixmgs said:
Most just assume they create a city or whatever and THEN create the missions just hoping it's all good. What you do is create the missions first, THEN put those missions on a blank canvas to populate the world.
Actually I think you need to create the world first. You can come up with a concept for a mission without a world to put it in, but you cannot test it. It's the testing, rather than the concept, that makes it fun.
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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Gethsemani said:
Zhukov said:
Except Mount & Blade. For all its clunkiness and utter lack of polish, that game did it right.
That might be because in M&B the open world is the meat and bones of the entire experience. Most games, even sandbox games like GTA or AC, have their gameplay almost completely detached from the open world. The open world serves, at best, as an obstacle or experience to face while you get to the segments that contain the engaging gameplay. In M&B the open world is where the gameplay happens, whether it is chasing down bandits, attacking enemies or just building your army. Take away the open world from most games and you still have a story to be told and loads of gameplay activities, take it away from M&B and that game is nothing but a rather barren combat simulator.
Pretty much, yeah.

Most open world games are a series of missions/side missions/activites/whatever dotted around a map.

M&B is a series of interlocking and overlapping systems and mechanics that take place on a map.

When I siege a castle it isn't happening because I'm doing a Siege side mission or liberating a fucking district, it's happening because I want that castle and I think I have enough Nord Huscarls trained up to take it. When four nations all declare war on me and I have to abandon my last stronghold and flee into the wilds with as many men as I can muster it isn't happening because I've reached the end of Act 1, it's happening because I pissed off too many kings by raiding their caravans and declaring myself a lord despite being of common birth. When my men start deserting my army it isn't because I'm doing the Mutiny mission, it's because I've been recruiting in Saranid lands and and trying to make them fight their own people.

I feel another thread coming on.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Zhukov said:
Samtemdo8 said:
What open world games have you played that made you start to hate Open World?
Every single one. You name it and, if I've played it, it has contributed to my contempt for open worlds. I consider them the 2010s equivalent of the glut of 2D platformers in the 90s and the plague of modern military shooters in the 2000s

Except Mount & Blade. For all its clunkiness and utter lack of polish, that game did it right.
Alright than. I assume you WERE a fan of Assassin's Creed and that made you hate it?

Also Open World games are much better than playing something like Medal of Honor Warfighter's campaign.

Also the glut 90s 2D platformers was actually good because alot of quality platformers came out at the time.
 

Death Carr

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My largest issue with Catalyst is that I felt like the game had slowed down when compared to 1
everytime I was launching myself off rooftops or swinging around corners it didn't feel like I was sprinting as fast as I could go, but rather it felt like I was jogging to catch the bus

Also the open world isn't really an open world like you said, the map looks satisfyingly large, but it's actually three (iirc) areas that are completely disconnected from each other except for small wayways/rope-swingymajigs

The campaign felt like it took longer to complete, but it also made me not want to play it again because most of it was boring, whereas I've replayed 1 10 times over

As for the combat, it's decidedly meh
I remember hearing pre-launch that you could skip all the combat encounters which is entirely untrue
I wish I could've turned around and left during some of the story combat encounters because more often than not it turned into me running in circles so that I could get off an attack that the ai wouldn't instantly block and turn me into mince-meat after
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Samtemdo8 said:
Zhukov said:
Samtemdo8 said:
What open world games have you played that made you start to hate Open World?
Every single one. You name it and, if I've played it, it has contributed to my contempt for open worlds. I consider them the 2010s equivalent of the glut of 2D platformers in the 90s and the plague of modern military shooters in the 2000s

Except Mount & Blade. For all its clunkiness and utter lack of polish, that game did it right.
Alright than. I assume you WERE a fan of Assassin's Creed and that made you hate it?
Assassin's Creed? Uhh... no, not really. I remember the CLIMB EVERYTHING aspect was really impressive in the first one when that sort of thing was new. The actual assassinations were fun but it was 10% assassinating and 90% eavesdropping and pick-pocketing and other boring shit. Then in later games they just kept adding more boring shit. I gave up on AC ever being good about two thirds through the second game. Bought later ones out of forlorn hope when the price dropped. They all sucked. Haven't played the last two.

Also Open World games are much better than playing something like Medal of Honor Warfighter's campaign.
Dude, french kissing a cheese grater is better than playing Warfighter's campaign.

And at least it's over quickly. I'd rather be bored for 5 hours than bored for 180 hours.

Also the glut 90s 2D platformers was actually good because alot of quality platformers came out at the time.
Sure, and those are the ones we remember. They were accompanied by a tidal wave of shitty ones. The good does not justify the bad. Back then whenever someone wanted to make a game a 2D platformer was the standard template.

Now it's standard to make a big boring, empty world and spread your game over it like 20 grams of butter spread on 10 square meters of bread.
 

Zhukov

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Death Carr said:
... because more often than not it turned into me running in circles so that I could get off an attack that the ai wouldn't instantly block and turn me into mince-meat after
Yeah, see, this is what I mean when I say the combat wasn't punishing enough.

You were doing it wrong (against blocking enemies you want to sidestep when they attack or do the switch places move then smack them in the back) but the game didn't force you to improve so you kept doing it because that will eventually work, but will feel clumsy as hell.
 

Death Carr

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Zhukov said:
see, I don't feel like that's got anything to do with whether or not the combat was punishing, bur rather the rarity of the enemies.
I can only remember them showing up maybe 2 or 3 times in situations where I'm forced to fight them. which made their encounters inherently more difficult. I'm sure they showed up far more often than that, but every time I had the opportunity to avoid the combat I would, which led to me not having the experience necessary to down these higher tier enemies when the game forced me to.
I think the problem is that the game introduces the higher tier enemies, but doesn't do enough to teach the player he necessary tactics to deal with them efficiently before giving the payer the opportunity to simply not fight them.

Also another thing I forgot to mention in my original post:
I liked the comic book style cutscenes in 1, and was kinda disappointed they didn't show up again even though the story never has and never will matter
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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Death Carr said:
I think the problem is that the game introduces the higher tier enemies, but doesn't do enough to teach the player he necessary tactics to deal with them efficiently before giving the payer the opportunity to simply not fight them.
You have to fight the highest tier enemies almost every time they show up. (It might even be every time, I forget.) They're basically minibosses.
 

votemarvel

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I don't like Catalyst for the same reasons I didn't like the first game.

First is that the game just looks bland, nothing in it visually excites me.

Then it is the first person view, it just doesn't work for me in this type of game. You don't get a sense of spacial awareness, you get no depth perception or peripheral vision. All things that for a free running/parkour game are absolutely essential.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Sep 1, 2010
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Bad Jim said:
Phoenixmgs said:
Most just assume they create a city or whatever and THEN create the missions just hoping it's all good. What you do is create the missions first, THEN put those missions on a blank canvas to populate the world.
Actually I think you need to create the world first. You can come up with a concept for a mission without a world to put it in, but you cannot test it. It's the testing, rather than the concept, that makes it fun.
Again, I really loved the 1st Mercenaries and to this day it's probably the best open world game I've ever played. There were so many different ways to complete every mission that it was, at times, a puzzle in trying to figure out how to complete a mission with the enemy faction knowing it was you. You could tell the missions were designed in a standalone manner vs creating the map then populating it with missions. I guess for the type of game Mercenaries was and the setting, it worked out really well as the world wasn't a city. Even though Ubisoft's games have become very stale and same-y, there's some well-designed missions/areas in your FarCrys, Watch Dogs, etc. in those areas that are very standalone-ish like FarCry's outposts and Watch Dogs' gang hideouts along with some good story missions thrown in. It's far better than Rockstar's standard go to Point B and spawn 20+ enemies to kill. The last Rockstar game I tried playing was RDR and it was god awful in mission design, every mission was the same; travel some long ass way to just kill a bunch of spawned enemies using whack-a-mole 3rd-person shooting. I got to Mexico and I never died once and the design, mechanics, and enemy AI never allowed you to be creative in how you went about the mission, which is sorta the point of an open world game.

Zhukov said:
The actual assassinations were fun but it was 10% assassinating and 90% eavesdropping and pick-pocketing and other boring shit. Then in later games they just kept adding more boring shit. I gave up on AC ever being good about two thirds through the second game.
Wow, the 2nd game is when I gave up on Assassin's Creed as well. I liked the basically Hitman-lite structure of the game as it was basically Hitman but you had to do the intel part as well (which was extremely lackluster). The assassinations were alright, again, Hitman-lite. I liked what they were going for with the game but the AC2 went in completely the opposite direction and basically GTA-ified the game when I was hoping the series would go more towards Hitman.