My only complaint about the Elder Scrolls series

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D. Ein

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Nov 16, 2011
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Background: I started with Oblivion, after logging a couple hundred hours there I played Morrowind for a while. I own Skyrim from the midnight launch, and since then logged 93 hours on it.

My complaint, then, is this: in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, all locations feel exactly like they would in a game, as opposed to real life. Take dungeons, for example. Do any Ayleid ruins look or feel like someone would ever live there, or work there? And I don't mean the fact that they look abandoned and desiccated, that's to be expected for a building that's been left alone for hundreds or thousands of years. I mean the general layout: there are meaningless rooms which seem to serve no purpose other than to house a chest and/or a concealed trap somewhere nearby, tunnels which were built to lead to nowhere, dramatic overlooks which would surely be a workplace hazard... and don't get me started on Skyrim's ring dungeon design, where the exit from the dungeon is conveniently located just after the end boss, and it, along with the entrance, is the only way in or out of the place.

Going away from dungeons for a minute, how about all those abandoned forts and castles? In real life, castles were kind of a big deal, you know, being big and comfy and very expensive and all that. The moment one would fall into a state of disrepair, I'd expect some Jarl or Thane or whomever to assemble a crew, clean the place out of whatever undead or bandits (or undead bandits) that may have taken over, move in there, and live like kings. And yet, I have yet to bump into a castle in either Oblivion or Skyrim, outside of a main city, that is NOT populated with the aforementioned undead or bandits.

I suppose this can all be justified as a case of gameplay versus story segregation. Certainly, the ring design is very convenient, and all those meaningless rooms /do/ have a purpose -- in the game. And maybe I'm just complaining because my favourite character to play is that of an assassin/thief, so I've gotten to appreciate non-linear location design. But if you're playing a warrior, nothing's more convenient than breathing a breath of fresh air after killing the end boss of a dungeon, hmm?

Of course, none of these things have a chance of being changed. Gameplay is gameplay, and as much as ergonomic dungeon/castle design would help the game's world, that's not how it is. But what do you guys think? Has anyone noticed this? Do you agree that it'd help the immersion and realism somewhat? Or am I looking at this the wrong way?
 

AMMO Kid

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It seems that all your complaints are person feelings about certain environments, so I'm not sure what to comment. I suppose I should point out that in the feudal era of europe there were multiple castle that were ignored by the feudal lords because upkeep would have been a liability rather than an asset. Not sure what else to say on this one.
 

D. Ein

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Nov 16, 2011
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AMMO Kid said:
It seems that all your complaints are person feelings about certain environments, so I'm not sure what to comment. I suppose I should point out that in the feudal era of europe there were multiple castle that were ignored by the feudal lords because upkeep would have been a liability rather than an asset. Not sure what else to say on this one.
I suppose that would make sense, though I doubt that there would be as many castles out there as there are in Skyrim/Oblivion without anyone actively using them.

And yes, it's just that, it's the feeling that all these locations were designed to be played as dungeons or as castles to be raided, not actual places that would serve a purpose in life.
 

rawion

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Mar 7, 2011
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Yes, I hate this too. Especially having read several books on the carefully designed nuances of castle design and then going into a game and thinking "Hey that castle looks cool, too bad its completely USELESS!" The location is wrong, the architecture is wrong, gahh! We should start a movement to make gaming a non-profit industry and all gaming companies must have an adviser on hand that is a professional in the field of (military history,engineering,whatever the game is based off) to oversee the entire project.
 

Inkvizitorius

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Apr 26, 2011
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I'm quite impressed with variety which this game has to offer. That's a lot of work to do for little gain and so publishers was hard pressed to create new content for this huge world and not to copy/paste instances, like they did with Oblivion 4. For now, I think, that we cant really ask for more, that they gave us. Quantity demands was extreme for this game, so there is no surprise, that something was sacrificed.

But I agree with you. Rooms are meaningless and it really feels like it. I think, that massive pre-planning and the next generation Elder the Scroll game will fix that.
 

gigastrike

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Inkvizitorius said:
Oblivion 4
...You mean "The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion"?

Anyway, I don't care much about the castles, but the dungeons are a little annoying. I guess it makes sense when you consider that they're all pretty much caves.
 

RangerDruid

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D. Ein said:
...making a game fun for the lowest common denominator will be the priority as long as money exists.
Ok, really? If this were actually true (and thank phoque it isn't) there wouldn't be any of your sneakthievery in the game at all.
 

BlindedHunter

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I'm not an avid fan of the series and not deep into the back story or anything, but I did want to weigh in on a thought that I had about the Ayleid ruins: perhaps it is designed like that to look alien to you and I?
I don't really know what the Ayleids are supposed to be, I never ended up getting so far into the story of Oblivion (or the others I didn't play), but it seemed they were very much presented as a race from long ago quite apart from those who live at the times of the games, and I decided the strangeness of their ruins could be chalked up to that - what you consider appropriate they might not.
 

Inkvizitorius

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Apr 26, 2011
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Of course, it's: The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion.

But why some of you think, that better design is opposite to fun (gameplay)?
 

D. Ein

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Nov 16, 2011
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rawion said:
Yes, I hate this too. Especially having read several books on the carefully designed nuances of castle design and then going into a game and thinking "Hey that castle looks cool, too bad its completely USELESS!" The location is wrong, the architecture is wrong, gahh! We should start a movement to make gaming a non-profit industry and all gaming companies must have an adviser on hand that is a professional in the field of (military history,engineering,whatever the game is based off) to oversee the entire project.
Again, I doubt it'll happen. It's just an idea I was throwing out there.

SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Try some Dwemer ruins.
For sure, Dwemer ruins are an exception to the rule, mainly because we don't know what those mechanisms could possibly be. But again, just the presence of the workbenches doesn't necessarily mean the building has had a purpose; what were they building with those workbenches? My ideal Dwemer ruin would be a giant cavern with a huge half-built machine in the middle, with tools scattered around, and so on; at least it'd be obvious what the meaning of the place is. And if there are Centurions, it'd be obvious what they were guarding.

RangerDruid said:
Ok, really? If this were actually true (and thank phoque it isn't) there wouldn't be any of your sneakthievery in the game at all.
SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
I also really dislike that "filthy casuals" hint you dropped in your original post. Maybe with the next TES game, they should give you a sword with the game and when you die in game, you have to ram it in your stomach. Would make for an intense game, and keep the casuals away, right?!? Only the minor problem of killing yourself there.
I think you guys misunderstood me a little bit. I'm not saying the games are /bad/ because of this. I'm not saying they would be /better/ if they weren't like this. I'm saying /I/ would like it if they weren't like this, and I wanted to see if anyone else felt this way. I'm not against treating a game like it's a game, if I did that, I'd make a topic called "MAGIC IN ELDER SCROLLS IS UNREALISTIC GO PLAY MODERN WARFARE 3 YOU NOOBS" and call it a day. However, I'll edit the offending paragraph out, lest more people confuse me for an elitist douchebag.

Inkvizitorius said:
Oblivion 4
Elder the Scroll game
:p
 

D. Ein

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Nov 16, 2011
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Inkvizitorius said:
But why some of you think, that better design is opposite to fun (gameplay)?
There's room in the world for both. I have more fun when I am wrecking something I know has had a purpose, not something built purposely for wrecking (I'm cool like that). People who prefer to charge in with a spell or a sword might like the more linear designs. Unfortunately, The Elder Scrolls series only offers the latter option.

I'll just re-state here, again, that this is my opinion. It's not what I think all games should do, it's not what I think everybody should believe. It's what I think, nothing more.
 

MatthewG

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Nov 8, 2010
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It strikes me that if you've spent 93 out of 113 hours playing one game then you're probably obsessing about it to an unheathly degree.
Yeah, it's 'gamey', that's what games are for - if you want realism, try stopping playing and engaging in the real world a bit...
 

Crazy Zaul

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This argument could apply to almost any game ever made. If every room had to have a realistic purpose games would be very very short.
 

jboking

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I think about these design issues sometimes while I play through the game. Then I remember all of my thoughts on use and design are based around real world sensibilities rather than Tamriel sensibilities. If the game claimed to be set in Feudal Europe, or even on earth, I might be taken aback. However, I try my best to feel that when things like magic developed, it took all the attention of intelligent architects who could have otherwise solved this problem, thus we get shitty castles. I do understand why there are abandoned castles, though, even in the real world sense. Castles require maintenance and are often more trouble than they are worth if they aren't positioned around a resource, like a town. Thus, the castles that get used are the ones that are the epicenter of different towns. I did wonder why the imperials didn't use the run down castles as bases of control, but then I ran into an actual imperial camp and it seemed like they were mostly pitched tents, implying they like to stay mobile, something a castle wouldn't be good for.

Well, that's my rambly thoughts, anyway.
 

D. Ein

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Nov 16, 2011
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MatthewG said:
It strikes me that if you've spent 93 out of 113 hours playing one game then you're probably obsessing about it to an unheathly degree.
Yeah, it's 'gamey', that's what games are for - if you want realism, try stopping playing and engaging in the real world a bit...
93 hours is just what Steam says. Because I'm paranoid of crashes, and because I haven't had a crash since I started the game, I don't bother turning it off for the night, or when I'm at work. I can't give you a more precise number than that, but it'd probably be around 40 hours. The only reason I put those stats in there is to say that I haven't just bumped into one dungeon and decided that I know what I'm talking about. I've invested some time into all three games, though I'll admit I haven't played the earlier ones.