Okay...Hitting in General

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Nathaniel Grey

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This is going to be a long one so bear with me. So a little while ago I made a post about hitting women. It turns out that most Escapists don't want to hit anyone. Which I believe is even worse than simply not hitting women. First, let me clear up one discrepancy. I don't lump fighting and violence in the same category. I view fighting as an art even if it is a sloppy street brawl. When people start dying, becoming paralyzed, then it becomes violence in my opinion. Still it's just my opinion. I'm unclear on the geographic location of most people on this site but I'm assuming Britian, America, Canada, and Australia have the highest number of accounts. Now, in my Middle school and High School there was an iron clad rule "You throw you Go". That means anyone caught fighting, regardless of who started it, would be... expelled? Suspended... Yes suspended is the word. Everyone was aware of this rule and as a result the tactics (you can say bullies) used changed. Instead of the objective being to simply beat you up and call it a day it became, " I'm going to say really shitty things to you. My friends are going to say really shitty things to you. I'm going to get you as aggravated and angry as you can possibly be and there is nothing you can do to stop me." They didn't actually think like that but that's what kids did to kids back then. How do you solve this problem? Tell the teacher? That usually makes it worse. Now your a snitch. I'm guessing many of you would try to resolve the issue verbally and logically. But what if the other guy does not wish to be logical and reasonable. Example:

Kid #1 - "Hey your gay (that was the diss back then)".
Kid #2 - "No I'm not. Just leave me alone."
Kid #1 - "Yeah you are. And your mom's a hoe."
Kid #2 - " Why do you keep bothering me. Leave me alone"
Kid #1 - "Because your gay and your mom's a hoe, idiot."

Basically it's playing the I'm not touching you game. I can get away with saying anything I want as long as I don't touch you. But if I can make you so angry that you touch me, justifiable or no, it's a double win for me. Many of you escapists are older and have already thought of a million different ways you would have handled that situation. Ignore the person. Walk away. Yada, Yada, Yada. What I would have done was at the point where he called my mom a hoe, he would have been on the floor. No, ifs, ands, or buts, about it.

Like I said in my previous post, that is how I was raised. But it appears that is not how most of you were raised. The thing that bugs me is that it appeared as though most of you look down on people who use their fists to solve their problems. Not all problems of course, just the one's they deem necessary. I'm NOT talking about self defense here (At least not specifically anyway). Many said (generalizing) "How about not hitting anyone unless you feel your life threatened..." I say, calling my mom a whore or bad mouthing my siblings is fighting words. No one says that to someone expecting them to respond "Yeah my mom is a bit of a hoe." Never forget that humans are animals and fighting truly comes naturally to us. The concept of restraining ourselves has to be TAUGHT/LEARNED. It is not instinctual. Restraint is a good skill to have but it also important to know when to let go. What boggles my mind is that I've had people say ridiculous things to me under the assumption that they would not get knocked out for saying what they said. To me the idea that someone might right hook you in your jaw helps keeps some people in check. Or else they would simply keep badgering you.

The reason I made the assumption that most Escapists were from the aforementioned areas is because around the world, my way, is the most used way to solve issues. It seems that this is a culture thing. Even in America, it seems most white people will say they don't hit anyone, while most Black and Hispanic people will do what I do. Now the question I want answered is if you are of the "I don't hit anyone" ilk, how do you, or how did you, respond to situations (not specifically, just an analogy) like the school one. Situations were it seems that the only way to get this person to stop is to use your hands. Or simply give me your reasons for believing not hitting anyone is a good way to live by. If you do use an example from your childhood, please use your child self. Often people project who they are now onto who they were then. In addition, I had this happen in the other post, don't belittle some else's upbringing or culture.
 

tippy2k2

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This is going to sound really insulting to a certain demographic but I'm going with it. Hopefully I don't offend too many people here but I'm about to offend a bunch of people I'm sure :)

That's how children solve their problems. Your example of a High School setting perfectly demonstrates this for you don't see that kind of shit in the adult world. In my experience, you see adults coming to fistacuffs for one reason:

Alcohol (which gives them the mind of children)

I'm 28 years old. I can't think of any situation outside of an actual direct threat to myself or someone else where I would be willing to throw down.

So yeah, I stereotyped away here (keep in mind that there are going to be kids who are way smarter and adults who act like children) but I am curious how many of the "I would beat her ass if she slapped me!!!! She wants equal rights so that means I get to punch her teeth out if she hits me!" responses are under the age of 21...

EDIT: Some clarification [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.840447-Okay-Hitting-in-General?page=3#20656386] (post 89 of this thread) on my position if anyone is curious for some reason
 

Thaluikhain

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tippy2k2 said:
This is going to sound really insulting to a certain demographic but I'm going with it. Hopefully I don't offend too many people here but I'm about to offend a bunch of people I'm sure :)

That's how children solve their problems. Your example of a High School setting perfectly demonstrates this for you don't see that kind of shit in the adult world. In my experience, you see adults coming to fistacuffs for one reason:

Alcohol (which gives them the mind of children)

I'm 28 years old. I can't think of any situation outside of an actual direct threat to myself or someone else where I would be willing to throw down.
Second that. Don't we all live in societies were assault is a crime?

Also...going by the OP wrote, I think we are allowed to beat up the OP if we don't like what they wrote. Not sure that's a good idea.

...

Now, coincidentally, I've been reading up on dueling, and maybe sorta that could make more sense, because both parties involved have agreed to the fight. Doesn't strike me as a good idea, though.
 

Eamar

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I am completely unapologetic about the fact that one of the proudest moments of my teenage years was when I punched the school bully in the face.

The guy was a complete and utter douche, and he constantly picked on pretty much everyone. With girls (myself included) he limited himself to verbal insults due to the "never hit a woman" mentality discussed in the other thread. I was generally not bothered by it and was able to shrug off his attempts to get under my skin, but this one friend I had (absolutely tiny, quiet, slightly timid girl) made the mistake of showing a reaction, and he just made every class a misery for her from then on, figuring out exactly what to say for maximum impact and regularly reducing her to tears purely for the lols.

One time outside class, after this had been going on for a while and he had proven unresponsive to verbal interventions (obviously), he was bullying my friend particularly harshly and just would not let up. So I punched him in the face. Hard. It was glorious. There was a brief fight. I won. And that one fight achieved what months of "doing the right thing" never managed: he left me and my friends alone after that.

I know it'll be an unpopular opinion, but I honestly do believe there are situations where a fistfight can be a perfectly good solution. I'm obviously not talking about fights between wildly unequal parties, nor about randomly attacking strangers in the street, or beating the crap out of someone who has no intention of fighting back, but there are times when it works. A lot of people here seem to be reluctant to admit it, but there are times when both parties come into a fight "willingly" (for lack of a better word). The couple of fights I had as a teenager were like that.
 

Phasmal

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tippy2k2 said:
This is going to sound really insulting to a certain demographic but I'm going with it. Hopefully I don't offend too many people here but I'm about to offend a bunch of people I'm sure :)

That's how children solve their problems. Your example of a High School setting perfectly demonstrates this for you don't see that kind of shit in the adult world. In my experience, you see adults coming to fistacuffs for one reason:

Alcohol (which gives them the mind of children)

I'm 28 years old. I can't think of any situation outside of an actual direct threat to myself or someone else where I would be willing to throw down.

So yeah, I stereotyped away here (keep in mind that there are going to be kids who are way smarter and adults who act like children) but I am curious how many of the "I would beat her ass if she slapped me!!!! She wants equal rights so that means I get to punch her teeth out if she hits me!" responses are under the age of 21...
Yeah, this.
This is a schoolyard solution to people pissing you off.

Adults, unless they're drunk or just fucking stupid, tend not to go in swinging.
Like, seriously, if you are over the age of eighteen or twenty, how often do you get in a physical fight unless you're like a bouncer or something?

Also, teaching your kid to `fight back` against bullying physically may sound like a good idea but all you are doing is reinforcing that it's okay to hit someone who is doing something you do not like, which is just not a good life lesson.
 

JoJo

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It was similar in my school, where the general tactic bullies used was to try to provoke people into fights. I found the best recourse was to stand your ground but refuse to fight, which was surprisingly effective since it showed the bullies were all bark and no bite: e.g. one told me to move away or he'd beat me up, I refused. He then challenged me to a fight, I refused. After the conversation circled around a couple more times, he gave up and walked away. People largely gave up trying to annoy me after a while, unlike my more unfortunate friends, because they realised I wouldn't surrender or be provoked. There's no fun in trying to diss someone who doesn't get upset by taunts or retaliate after-all, it just makes them feel powerless and impotent.

So no, I haven't laid a hand in anger on anyone since I was 12 and I don't intend to again unless it's in self-defence or defending others. If someone verbally engages me, not that it's ever really happened in my adult life, then I'll return with some choice words of my own or defuse the situation depending on what seems best. I did several years of martial arts from around the ages of 14 to 19, so if the worst happened I believe I could hold my own fairly well in a fight, but I'm a pacifist at heart and I don't believe violence is the solution in most cases.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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tippy2k2 said:
This is going to sound really insulting to a certain demographic but I'm going with it. Hopefully I don't offend too many people here but I'm about to offend a bunch of people I'm sure :)

That's how children solve their problems. Your example of a High School setting perfectly demonstrates this for you don't see that kind of shit in the adult world. In my experience, you see adults coming to fistacuffs for one reason:

Alcohol (which gives them the mind of children)

I'm 28 years old. I can't think of any situation outside of an actual direct threat to myself or someone else where I would be willing to throw down.

So yeah, I stereotyped away here (keep in mind that there are going to be kids who are way smarter and adults who act like children) but I am curious how many of the "I would beat her ass if she slapped me!!!! She wants equal rights so that means I get to punch her teeth out if she hits me!" responses are under the age of 21...
Another vote for this. Plus, there are so many better ways you can physically put people in their place than punching. Isn't it dangerous for your knuckles if you don't know the right way to do it?

I'm a fairly big guy and quite bulky, so I've never been to a real fight. But if someone pisses me off enough, I am ready to let them know it by using physical means. At least it's an effective way of saying the person has crossed the line, and after that they usually stop. No one but idiots and drunks actively seek out fights anyway. One time in the military one of my roommates wouldn't stop bugging me about my sheets. After trying to put him off it for the longest time I finally grabbed him in a chokehold and made myself clear. He stopped after that.
 

manic_depressive13

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If you're so insecure and emotionally unstable that you can't help but be provoked to violence, that's fine. But at least accept that it's pathetic to feel the need to fight people in order to keep your fragile ego in tact. Don't act like you're morally justified "putting people in their place" and "teaching them a lesson".

The truth is that I probably could be provoked into violence that isn't self defense. I'm not going to fucking brag about it though. As if being some volatile fucking psycho who can't walk away from a slight is a point of pride.

I did get bullied at school, and I overcame scenarios like the schoolyard one you described by acquiring some maturity and perspective. What's wrong with being gay? Why is it bad to be a 'ho'? Am I seriously going to get all worked up over my mum's vagina?
 

Lieju

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If in your culture solving your problems with violence is okay, I'd say your culture has issues.

If a kid has been raised in an environment where violence is prevalent, that is an issue, and maybe saying 'just be pacifist' feels like an over-simplification, but I can't just agree that it's okay to use violence.

Twice in my life I have either punched someone or come very close. (Both were in high school with a guy who sexually harassed me.)

Once in retaliation for grabbing my butt, once because he cornered me in a sideroom alone and I was afraid.

It didn't help in either case.
All that happened was that people started saying I 'wanted it' because apparently chasing after someone and trying to punch them is a part of teenager mating ritual.
 

Weaver

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Eamar said:
I am completely unapologetic about the fact that one of the proudest moments of my teenage years was when I punched the school bully in the face.

The guy was a complete and utter douche, and he constantly picked on pretty much everyone. With girls (myself included) he limited himself to verbal insults due to the "never hit a woman" mentality discussed in the other thread. I was generally not bothered by it and was able to shrug off his attempts to get under my skin, but this one friend I had (absolutely tiny, quiet, slightly timid girl) made the mistake of showing a reaction, and he just made every class a misery for her from then on, figuring out exactly what to say for maximum impact and regularly reducing her to tears purely for the lols.

One time outside class, after this had been going on for a while and he had proven unresponsive to verbal interventions (obviously), he was bullying my friend particularly harshly and just would not let up. So I punched him in the face. Hard. It was glorious. There was a brief fight. I won. And that one fight achieved what months of "doing the right thing" never managed: he left me and my friends alone after that.

I know it'll be an unpopular opinion, but I honestly do believe there are situations where a fistfight can be a perfectly good solution. I'm obviously not talking about fights between wildly unequal parties, nor about randomly attacking strangers in the street, or beating the crap out of someone who has no intention of fighting back, but there are times when it works. A lot of people here seem to be reluctant to admit it, but there are times when both parties come into a fight "willingly" (for lack of a better word). The couple of fights I had as a teenager were like that.
I agree with this. I'm tired of seeing bully's get away with years of terror because the school won't do a damn fucking thing about it. If no one steps in then they're just going to turn out to be shit people.

If someone is bullied every day and they snap and beat the fuck out of the bully, this shouldn't be a very surprising turn of events.

Violence isn't the answer; but rarely it's an effective solution.
 

dyre

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tippy2k2 said:
This is going to sound really insulting to a certain demographic but I'm going with it. Hopefully I don't offend too many people here but I'm about to offend a bunch of people I'm sure :)

That's how children solve their problems. Your example of a High School setting perfectly demonstrates this for you don't see that kind of shit in the adult world. In my experience, you see adults coming to fistacuffs for one reason:

Alcohol (which gives them the mind of children)

I'm 28 years old. I can't think of any situation outside of an actual direct threat to myself or someone else where I would be willing to throw down.

So yeah, I stereotyped away here (keep in mind that there are going to be kids who are way smarter and adults who act like children) but I am curious how many of the "I would beat her ass if she slapped me!!!! She wants equal rights so that means I get to punch her teeth out if she hits me!" responses are under the age of 21...
Oh man, I was about to say something really insulting to a certain demographic, but I sure am glad someone beat me to it, LOL.

+1

edit: also, maybe I was raised in a sheltered part of the world but we didn't even solve problems like that as children. Mostly people avoided exchanging childish insults and/or starting fights for no reason.
 

omega 616

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To quote some well known dude, "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

But the same well known dude also said "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." and "Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary."

Though I think that when Gandhi was talking about violence he was talking about fucking up a country and not a school yard fight.

Still, sometimes it's cathartic to punch and be punched. I think we are fooling ourselves if we try to be civil about absolutely everything ... it's just not in our nature, even so called better people than us (presidents and leaders of countries) go to war, instead of sitting down and having a good old conflab! If these people, who are meant to be the best representatives of their countries can't talk things out, how are the rest of us meant to do it?
 

gargantual

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Nathaniel Grey said:
This is going to be a long one so bear with me. So a little while ago I made a post about hitting women. It turns out that most Escapists don't want to hit anyone. Which I believe is even worse than simply not hitting women. First, let me clear up one discrepancy. I don't lump fighting and violence in the same category. I view fighting as an art even if it is a sloppy street brawl. When people start dying, becoming paralyzed, then it becomes violence in my opinion. Still it's just my opinion. I'm unclear on the geographic location of most people on this site but I'm assuming Britian, America, Canada, and Australia have the highest number of accounts. Now, in my Middle school and High School there was an iron clad rule "You throw you Go". That means anyone caught fighting, regardless of who started it, would be... expelled? Suspended... Yes suspended is the word. Everyone was aware of this rule and as a result the tactics (you can say bullies) used changed. Instead of the objective being to simply beat you up and call it a day it became, " I'm going to say really shitty things to you. My friends are going to say really shitty things to you. I'm going to get you as aggravated and angry as you can possibly be and there is nothing you can do to stop me." They didn't actually think like that but that's what kids did to kids back then. How do you solve this problem? Tell the teacher? That usually makes it worse. Now your a snitch. I'm guessing many of you would try to resolve the issue verbally and logically. But what if the other guy does not wish to be logical and reasonable. Example:

Kid #1 - "Hey your gay (that was the diss back then)".
Kid #2 - "No I'm not. Just leave me alone."
Kid #1 - "Yeah you are. And your mom's a hoe."
Kid #2 - " Why do you keep bothering me. Leave me alone"
Kid #1 - "Because your gay and your mom's a hoe, idiot."

Basically it's playing the I'm not touching you game. I can get away with saying anything I want as long as I don't touch you. But if I can make you so angry that you touch me, justifiable or no, it's a double win for me. Many of you escapists are older and have already thought of a million different ways you would have handled that situation. Ignore the person. Walk away. Yada, Yada, Yada. What I would have done was at the point where he called my mom a hoe, he would have been on the floor. No, ifs, ands, or buts, about it.

Like I said in my previous post, that is how I was raised. But it appears that is not how most of you were raised. The thing that bugs me is that it appeared as though most of you look down on people who use their fists to solve their problems. Not all problems of course, just the one's they deem necessary. I'm NOT talking about self defense here (At least not specifically anyway). Many said (generalizing) "How about not hitting anyone unless you feel your life threatened..." I say, calling my mom a whore or bad mouthing my siblings is fighting words. No one says that to someone expecting them to respond "Yeah my mom is a bit of a hoe." Never forget that humans are animals and fighting truly comes naturally to us. The concept of restraining ourselves has to be TAUGHT/LEARNED. It is not instinctual. Restraint is a good skill to have but it also important to know when to let go. What boggles my mind is that I've had people say ridiculous things to me under the assumption that they would not get knocked out for saying what they said. To me the idea that someone might right hook you in your jaw helps keeps some people in check. Or else they would simply keep badgering you.

The reason I made the assumption that most Escapists were from the aforementioned areas is because around the world, my way, is the most used way to solve issues. It seems that this is a culture thing. Even in America, it seems most white people will say they don't hit anyone, while most Black and Hispanic people will do what I do. Now the question I want answered is if you are of the "I don't hit anyone" ilk, how do you, or how did you, respond to situations (not specifically, just an analogy) like the school one. Situations were it seems that the only way to get this person to stop is to use your hands. Or simply give me your reasons for believing not hitting anyone is a good way to live by. If you do use an example from your childhood, please use your child self. Often people project who they are now onto who they were then. In addition, I had this happen in the other post, don't belittle some else's upbringing or culture.
Gotta remember man. In high school scenario it 'looks' like everyone knows each other. Not really. In the world we have NO idea what people around us are really capable of, or what they've been learning. That's the biggest reason to avoid fights as much as possible. You are seeing mini-versions of the dark tactics that people grow up and employ when they get more social power. As adults, they'll do it with lies, video tape, papers, scandals and lawyers.

Most you can do is keep yourself clean. Don't listen to people talking shit or misunderstanding your background eh. U gotta keep your own confidence, and remember. Who really knows you?

That's why 'playing the dozens' were invented. There are certain individuals that have authority and good people around them, and they don't get messed with as much. You blow up too easily and its a poker tell to the slimeballs out there.

You gotta think about the aftermath 'How is this going to end for me?' Or who sees my perspective they they're just constantly poking with verbal sticks. Look at Chris Brown. All those reported incidents because the ones around him, see they can push his buttons and make him raise his fists. The real war starts in your mind, and it has to be won there first. Stay cool :)
 

Eamar

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omega 616 said:
Still, sometimes it's cathartic to punch and be punched. I think we are fooling ourselves if we try to be civil about absolutely everything ... it's just not in our nature
I actually really agree with this, though I'm not going to use it to say everyone should use violence to solve their problems, obviously.

It's pretty obvious that some of us (not all) have a hell of a lot of natural aggression that needs to be expressed somehow. Just look at how many people engage in violent sports (many of which are straight-up regulated fights), or enjoy moshing to heavy music, or even engaging in certain S&M activities. And yeah, as someone who does all three, I can certainly agree that "sometimes it's cathartic to punch and be punched."

If two people like that want to settle their differences with a fight, I say go right on ahead. I think it's unrealistic to make out that violence is never acceptable, ever, full stop.
 

Thaluikhain

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omega 616 said:
I think we are fooling ourselves if we try to be civil about absolutely everything ... it's just not in our nature,
Certainly, it's not something that comes naturally to us...but I'm using a laptop to write this.

It might be easy to random bludgeon people, that doesn't mean it's better.
 

JoJo

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SimpleThunda said:
People who condemn using violence to show people their place are usually the same people who wouldn't be any good in a fight in the first place. Obviously people who are physically weak are going to shy away from using violence and aren't going to be in favour of it.

In my opinion, as long as the violence is proportionate, I don't mind the use of it situations where someone's physical OR EMOTIONAL integrity is at stake. With big emphasis on the latter.
These people who hide behind "being mature" are just letting people walk all over them because they're too afraid to call people out on their bullshit. Being mature is confronting the person that's throwing shit at you and not backing down like a scared dog. Now that doesn't have to result in violence necessarily, but it might, and if it does you should be ready to stand your ground.

Also; There's ofcourse the obligatory legion of people flailing around with hyperboles like;"Oh yeah, well if it's okay to hit people I might aswell hit you for writing something I don't agree with".
The problem here is you're treating standing up yourself and pacifism as if they are mutually exclusive, which is not the case. Particularly in the adult world, standing up for yourself does not mean trying to beat people up because you have a disagreement with them, for example if your boss has been acting like a jerk to you recently, socking him one is hardly likely to improve the situation. I say stand your ground and if they choose to use violence, well then you can justifiably act in self defence. On the other hand, if you're the first to raise a hand in anger, you deserve everything coming to you.
 

Lieju

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SimpleThunda said:
People who condemn using violence to show people their place are usually the same people who wouldn't be any good in a fight in the first place. Obviously people who are physically weak are going to shy away from using violence and aren't going to be in favour of it.
Well, obviously I quite dislike a world where it's okay for people to walk all over me because most of them are stronger than me.
There are societies like this, certainly, but shouldn't that be the kind of thing we as human beings should try to change?

Someone has been causing me quite a bit of trouble lately, calling me and yelling, accusing me of things and making vague threats.

But I didn't have to punch her, I just told her I'm not interested in yelling, I have proof that at least some things she claims are untrue and that I have no interest in arguing over this, but if she likes we can get the law involved.

Worked kinda better than punching her.