Overwatch roles

[Bobular]

I was in debate with someone over what role Sombra will be, I thought support because she seems to be more about de-buffing the enemy than damage dealing, but the other guy told me she was offense because she is basically evil Tracer and there were too many support anyway.

I still think Sombra is more supporty, but it got me thinking about some other characters that I thought were in the wrong role.

Why do Torbjorn and Symmetra have different roles when they both do basically the same thing?
One provides armour, the other shields
They both put down turrets, yeah a bit different in type of turret, but they are both still defense turrets
The only really big difference between the two is the ultimate
So shouldn't they both be defense or both be support?

And Hanzo seems a bit more offense then defense to me, but I don't really play him and could go both ways really.

So anyone agree with me? Anyone else think that some other characters are in the wrong category?

 

[IceForce]

Widow is definitely in the wrong category. She's wayyy better on attack than on defense. And there's some game 'science' behind the reason why;

As a sniper in this game, camping somewhere and never moving will be the death of you. On defense, you have no choice but to set up somewhere and hold the position, but on attack you're constantly moving up, making sniping much more viable on attack.
In addition to this, Widow is extremely vulnerable to flankers, which is another reason why she's bad on defense. Whereas on attack, it's highly unlikely there will be defensive flankers (occasionally there are, but it's rare).
Then there's the whole 'spawn advantage' aspect of it. If, as a defender on the first point, you get picked off and killed (which can happen wayyy too easily when you're a sniper), then your team will almost certainly lose the first point, because the defender's spawn is so sooo far away and the attackers have spawn advantage.
The flipside of this is, if a Widow goes on attack for the first point, and gets a couple of pickoffs straight away, then that puts the attackers at an automatic man-advantage, and capping the first point should be almost guaranteed.
Then there's her ult, which is infinitely more useful on attack than it is on defense, because you can see exactly where the defenders are set up - where the hidden Bastions are, etc. But Infra-Sight on defense is not as useful, because the attackers only really come from one direction anyway.
On the last point of the map, the spawn-advantage is reversed in favor of the defenders, but playing Widow here on defense is usually a bad idea also due to all the ults going off and shit going down at that point of the match, making it hard to actually snipe anything.

So, next time you're on attack and someone on your team goes attack Widow, don't start yelling at them to change. Because it can actually work really well - better than using her on defense. (Only start yelling at them if it becomes obvious that they're a shit Widow.)

 

[Zhukov]

Sombra is classified as offense. Which fits her well enough.

Players get waaaay too hung up on those categories. If you get someone saying, "Oh no, we're defending and we don't have any defense heroes", then mute them immediately because they are an idiot.

At high ranks the "real" categories that actually matter are:

Main Tank
Reinhardt, Roadhog

Off Tank
Zarya, Winston, DVa

Flanker
Tracer, Genji, Reaper

Damage
Soldier 76, McCree, Hanzo, Junkrat

Utility
Symmetra, Lucio, Mei, Zenyatta

Healer
Mercy, Ana

Useless
Bastion, Torb, Widow, Pharah

You basically want one of each category (except useless, obviously), with a bit of flexibility depending on map and whether you're attacking or defending.

 

[Bobular]

Widow is definitely in the wrong category. She's wayyy better on attack than on defense. And there's some game 'science' behind the reason why;

As a sniper in this game, camping somewhere and never moving will be the death of you. On defense, you have no choice but to set up somewhere and hold the position, but on attack you're constantly moving up, making sniping much more viable on attack.
In addition to this, Widow is extremely vulnerable to flankers, which is another reason why she's bad on defense. Whereas on attack, it's highly unlikely there will be defensive flankers (occasionally there are, but it's rare).
Then there's the whole 'spawn advantage' aspect of it. If, as a defender on the first point, you get picked off and killed (which can happen wayyy too easily when you're a sniper), then your team will almost certainly lose the first point, because the defender's spawn is so sooo far away and the attackers have spawn advantage.
The flipside of this is, if a Widow goes on attack for the first point, and gets a couple of pickoffs straight away, then that puts the attackers at an automatic man-advantage, and capping the first point should be almost guaranteed.
Then there's her ult, which is infinitely more useful on attack than it is on defense, because you can see exactly where the defenders are set up - where the hidden Bastions are, etc. But Infra-Sight on defense is not as useful, because the attackers only really come from one direction anyway.
On the last point of the map, the spawn-advantage is reversed in favor of the defenders, but playing Widow here on defense is usually a bad idea also due to all the ults going off and shit going down at that point of the match, making it hard to actually snipe anything.

So, next time you're on attack and someone on your team goes attack Widow, don't start yelling at them to change. Because it can actually work really well - better than using her on defense. (Only start yelling at them if it becomes obvious that they're a shit Widow.)

I never thought of it that way, makes a lot of sense. I always thought of Hanzo as the more mobile sniper therfore the offense one and Widowmaker as more stationary therefore defense, though I never stay in one spot long when I play her anyway.

Sombra is classified as offense. Which fits her well enough.

Players get waaaay too hung up on those categories. If you get someone saying, "Oh no, we're defending and we don't have any defense heroes", then mute them immediately because they are an idiot.

At high ranks the "real" categories that actually matter are:

Main Tank
Reinhardt, Roadhog

Off Tank
Zarya, Winston, DVa

Flanker
Tracer, Genji, Reaper

Damage
Soldier 76, McCree, Hanzo, Junkrat

Utility
Symmetra, Lucio, Mei, Zenyatta

Healer
Mercy, Ana

Useless
Bastion, Torb, Widow, Pharah

You basically want one of each category (except useless, obviously), with a bit of flexibility depending on map and whether you're attacking or defending.

I take offense at you putting Pharah in useless, she can be really useful on some maps[footnote]I still play Pharah a fair bit[/footnote]. Other than that I would agree with most of that, though I still don't see why Torbjorn and Symmetra are in different categories.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Sombra is classified as offense. Which fits her well enough.

Players get waaaay too hung up on those categories. If you get someone saying, "Oh no, we're defending and we don't have any defense heroes", then mute them immediately because they are an idiot.

At high ranks the "real" categories that actually matter are:

Main Tank
Reinhardt, Roadhog

Off Tank
Zarya, Winston, DVa

Flanker
Tracer, Genji, Reaper

Damage
Soldier 76, McCree, Hanzo, Junkrat

Utility
Symmetra, Lucio, Mei, Zenyatta

Healer
Mercy, Ana

Useless
Bastion, Torb, Widow, Pharah

You basically want one of each category (except useless, obviously), with a bit of flexibility depending on map and whether you're attacking or defending.

wait what, since when was pharah classified as "useless"? relative to the other 3 characters in the useless category at least.

 

[Zhukov]

wait what, since when was pharah classified as "useless"? relative to the other 3 characters in the useless category at least.

I take offense at you putting Pharah in useless, she can be really useful on some maps. Other than that I would agree with most of that,

If the enemy has a player with decent aim playing an accurate character, and at any kind of respectable rank they will, then Pharah is just a big blue clay pigeon.

Her whole thing is flight, but whenever she's in the air she's a slow, easy kill. If she stays on the ground she's just a shitty McCree. Her projectiles are too slow to compete with hitscan weapons. Her ult will get her killed nine times out of ten because it forces her to be stationary and also have line of sight to her target. Sure, it's good when the enemy is bunched up or in combination with a crowd control ability, but there are so many better options.

I wish she was good because I like her design and concept, but everything she does someone else does better. She has no place in the meta.

...though I still don't see why Torbjorn and Symmetra are in different categories.

A case could easily be made for Symmetra being categorized as defense.

At high levels she's only ever used to defend the first point on a map in conjunction with a Mercy to mitigate the initial spawn distance disadvantage for defenders. (If one or two people die they can use the teleporter, if 3+ die there's the Mercy rez.) I have a high winrate with her, but only because that's the only place I use her. At higher levels than that (as in, higher than me) she basically isn't used at all because any decent flanker player can get to your teleporter with ease.

Thing is, she's all about the teleporter which is a very support-y ability. The turrets are nice if you know where to put them but they're no replacement for a competent DPS. So there's an argument for the support categorization. (Plus the shield boost, useless though it is. Should have been her passive, just automatically give ti to any friend who walks by, give her a better 'E' active.)

This is why she's being reworked. She's overspecialized and hopelessly weak at high levels of play.

 

[Bobular]

wait what, since when was pharah classified as "useless"? relative to the other 3 characters in the useless category at least.

I take offense at you putting Pharah in useless, she can be really useful on some maps. Other than that I would agree with most of that,

If the enemy has a player with decent aim playing an accurate character, and at any kind of respectable rank they will, then Pharah is just a big blue clay pigeon.

Her whole thing is flight, but whenever she's in the air she's a slow, easy kill. If she stays on the ground she's just a shitty McCree. Her projectiles are too slow to compete with hitscan weapons. Her ult will get her killed nine times out of ten because it forces her to be stationary and also have line of sight to her target. Sure, it's good when the enemy is bunched up or in combination with a crowd control ability, but there are so many better options.

I wish she was good because I like her design and concept, but everything she does someone else does better. She has no place in the meta.

Everything has counters. I mostly use Pharah on defense, getting behind the enemy and attacking from behind. If the rest of the team is capable of keeping them at a bottleneck I can take out a load of them with the ult before they even knew I was behind them. The problem is most people seem to just run into the middle of a group, jump up and ult and then die before finishing.

I'll admit she's not the DPS Reaper is, but if she gets behind and launches missiles at range she causes the enemy to panic more I think as they have to deal with damage from two sides.

 

[IceForce]

If the enemy has a player with decent aim playing an accurate character, and at any kind of respectable rank they will, then Pharah is just a big blue clay pigeon.

Blue? Nah mate, my Pharah ain't blue. ('twas the first skin I changed, and it has to be said, her default skin is tacky as hell).

Anyway, my highest win rate is actually on Pharah. Because somewhat ironically, at low levels of play (ie: my level) everyone has such shit aim that Pharah can actually do work.

I hear what you're saying though.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

wait what, since when was pharah classified as "useless"? relative to the other 3 characters in the useless category at least.

I take offense at you putting Pharah in useless, she can be really useful on some maps. Other than that I would agree with most of that,

If the enemy has a player with decent aim playing an accurate character, and at any kind of respectable rank they will, then Pharah is just a big blue clay pigeon.

Her whole thing is flight, but whenever she's in the air she's a slow, easy kill. If she stays on the ground she's just a shitty McCree. Her projectiles are too slow to compete with hitscan weapons. Her ult will get her killed nine times out of ten because it forces her to be stationary and also have line of sight to her target. Sure, it's good when the enemy is bunched up or in combination with a crowd control ability, but there are so many better options.

debatable on the "any kind of respectable rank", and idk about you, but I use pharahs height to flank, not to jump up in the middle of nowhere to get sniped by a mcree/widow, most of my highest damage/kill output games (in competitive) are with pharah, because I use the maps highly to my advantage with her jump and her blast. I played a ton of soldier in tf2, so her projectiles are perfectly fine with me (I've yet to lose a pharah vs pharah battle when the other team tries to mimic what I'm doing)

Yeah, if there is a decent mcree then I'm probably not going to be on pharah, and I'm not saying she's better than alot of heroes in most situations, I'm just saying she isn't useless either. she's one of my favorites on maps like watchpoint gibraltar or ilios.

(I really find it hilarious what heroes people have problems with or think are useless/OP, I can't tell if its a skill level difference or a geographical difference, or a bit of both, but it seems like everyone has gripes with something.)

 

[Zhukov]

debatable on the "any kind of respectable rank"

Yeah, if there is a decent mcree then I'm probably not going to be on pharah,

At any kind of respectable rank, there is always a decent McCree.

On the off chance there isn't one to begin with then one will quickly appear as soon as they see Pharah's juicy blue butt fluttering about. He counters her hard and is just generally great in the hands of someone with good aim.

That's what I mean by her having no place in the meta. Because the meta is filled to the brim with decent McCrees.

 

[Glongpre]

The categories are basically:

Offense -> damage, flanking, kill securing

Defense -> controlling space

Support -> skills which benefit the team, ie buffs (syms turrets are more for alerting you to flankers, they can't be used aggressively to control space)

Sombra is classified as offense because she can't control space effectively, and her skills give her an aggressive flanking role. Sneaking around and hacking that important healer or initiator.

And people don't use pharah because there are just plain old better picks.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

debatable on the "any kind of respectable rank"

Yeah, if there is a decent mcree then I'm probably not going to be on pharah,

At any kind of respectable rank, there is always a decent McCree.

On the off chance there isn't one to begin with then one will quickly appear as soon as they see Pharah's juicy blue butt fluttering about. He counters her hard and is just generally great in the hands of someone with good aim.

That's what I mean by her having no place in the meta. Because the meta is filled to the brim with decent McCrees.

well we must just play with a ton of different people, not that I don't play against decent mcree's, they just don't mow me down like you're expecting. yeah getting 3 gold medals isn't the end all be all of stats, but it certainly shows pharah isn't "useless" either.

 

[Zhukov]

debatable on the "any kind of respectable rank"

Yeah, if there is a decent mcree then I'm probably not going to be on pharah,

At any kind of respectable rank, there is always a decent McCree.

On the off chance there isn't one to begin with then one will quickly appear as soon as they see Pharah's juicy blue butt fluttering about. He counters her hard and is just generally great in the hands of someone with good aim.

That's what I mean by her having no place in the meta. Because the meta is filled to the brim with decent McCrees.

well we must just play with a ton of different people, not that I don't play against decent mcree's, they just don't mow me down like you're expecting. yeah getting 3 gold medals isn't the end all be all of stats, but it certainly shows pharah isn't "useless" either.

Then you aren't playing against good McCrees.

If they can't render Pharah useless they aren't good McCrees. If they can't reliably snap off headshots they aren't good McCrees.

Comparing our subjective experiences on this isn't going to prove anything. So tell you what. Look up a youtube video of a pro Overwatch tournament. Count how many times Pharah gets played. (Just so you don't get bored, count how many times McCree gets played while you're at it.)

Obviously pro play isn't representative of pleb play, but the higher rank you get the more it becomes so. And the higher you get, the more useless Pharah becomes.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Sombra is classified as offense. Which fits her well enough.

Players get waaaay too hung up on those categories. If you get someone saying, "Oh no, we're defending and we don't have any defense heroes", then mute them immediately because they are an idiot.

At high ranks the "real" categories that actually matter are:

Main Tank
Reinhardt, Roadhog

Off Tank
Zarya, Winston, DVa

Flanker
Tracer, Genji, Reaper

Damage
Soldier 76, McCree, Hanzo, Junkrat

Utility
Symmetra, Lucio, Mei, Zenyatta

Healer
Mercy, Ana

Useless
Bastion, Torb, Widow, Pharah

You basically want one of each category (except useless, obviously), with a bit of flexibility depending on map and whether you're attacking or defending.

Torb is anything but useless. There are a handful of maps where a well placed Turret will destroy a team.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

At high ranks the "real" categories that actually matter are:

Main Tank
Reinhardt, Roadhog

Off Tank
Zarya, Winston, DVa

I really wouldn't consider roadhog a main tank. He has no defensive abilities and any time he's drawing the attention of the enemy team the enemy team is building ult off of him because he's just a bullet sponge.

Reinhardt is the only main tank, with the next closest thing being Dva (I've had games where I soak up 20,000+ damage with her defense matrix by just jumping in front of every enemy ultimate).

They really need to add a second main tank to the game, meta is currently too Reinhardt dependent.

 

[RedDeadFred]

I actually think she fits offense quite well. She's a great flanker, sets up your team to crack a defense, and her passive gives her wall-hacks for low health enemies.

Then you aren't playing against good McCrees.

If they can't render Pharah useless they aren't good McCrees. If they can't reliably snap off headshots they aren't good McCrees.

Comparing our subjective experiences on this isn't going to prove anything. So tell you what. Look up a youtube video of a pro Overwatch tournament. Count how many times Pharah gets played. (Just so you don't get bored, count how many times McCree gets played while you're at it.)

Obviously pro play isn't representative of pleb play, but the higher rank you get the more it becomes so. And the higher you get, the more useless Pharah becomes.

I dunno, having seen pro players like Tviq absolutely slaughter with her, I'd say it's more that people aren't utilizing her well enough. She's not great in solo que though since she almost always requires a pocket. She's certainly not good on several maps, but calling her useless is simply incorrect. If you really want to see pick rates among pros (and none of us are even close to that level so it doesn't really matter, but you brought them up first), you can look at this:
https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2016-10-26-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-a-meta-divided
She's more of a special pick for specific maps. So really, if we're going off of pro play (which is what you wanted), Soldier, Symmetra, and Junkrat should all be bumped down to "useless" tier with Pharah being bumped up to damage.

Honestly, unless you're in Master or above, you can probably ignore any kind of ranking and just play who you're good with.

 

[Zhukov]

Torb is anything but useless. There are a handful of maps where a well placed Turret will destroy a team.

Nope. He's totally useless.

Any team with half a brain cell between them will kill his turret within 3 seconds of seeing it. It's a static target with low HP that makes a distinctive noise. It's damage is constant but completely inconsequential against the nigh ubiquitous Reinhardt shield.

Torb can be useless by constantly building turrets that die immediately or he can be useless by running around trying to be a shitty McCree/shitty Reaper hybrid.

His ult can get work done, but a character who is useless without their ult is a useless character.

I hear he's widely used on the console version, to the point of getting a damage nerf, because console players with their crab-thumb wiggle-sticks can't hit static targets without aim assist.

I dunno, having seen pro players like Tviq absolutely slaughter with her, I'd say it's more that people aren't utilizing her well enough. She's not great in solo que though since she almost always requires a pocket. She's certainly not good on several maps, but calling her useless is simply incorrect. If you really want to see pick rates among pros (and none of us are even close to that level so it doesn't really matter, but you brought them up first), you can look at this:
https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2016-10-26-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-a-meta-divided
She's more of a special pick for specific maps.

Uh, yeah, that chart shows her being used in less than 10% of games. So clearly the pros "aren't utilizing her well enough".

Because she's useless you see.

So really, if we're going off of pro play (which is what you wanted), Soldier, Symmetra, and Junkrat should all be bumped down to "useless" tier

Sure. I wouldn't object to that.

I wasn't looking at a chart when I made my categories, so I'm feeling mighty vindicated after seeing your chart.

Soldier is actually okay in his own right, but everything he does McCree does better.

Like I said earlier, Symmetra is hyper-specialized and is easily rendered useless if the enemy has a decent flanker. I'm pretty sure most of the reason I had success with her in Diamond+ is because people aren't used to playing against her. She's been officially judged useless enough to warrant a rework.

Junkrat, yeah, he's basically useless. I was going to categorize him as such, except at my level he can do okay in combination with another DPS (read: McCree/Soldier) by just spamming down chokepoints or at Reinhardt's shield, but I can see that better players would be better served by someone, well... better.

Judging by that chart I'd throw everyone from Mercy on down into the useless box for top-level play.

with Pharah being bumped up to damage.

Nope. She's useless. Unless we're arguing that Junkrat totally has a role because he got into, what, 2% of games?

I really wouldn't consider roadhog a main tank. He has no defensive abilities and any time he's drawing the attention of the enemy team the enemy team is building ult off of him because he's just a bullet sponge.

Yeah, I wasn't 100% on Roadhog.

At my skill level he can fill the main tank role on defense in combination with a Zarya. People are less willing to spam at him when he keeps getting that lovely bubble. So long as he's reliably getting picks it can just about make up for his being a ult-battery for the enemy.

They really need to add a second main tank to the game, meta is currently too Reinhardt dependent.

This is true.

Although I have no idea what that theoretical second main tank would look like. It's pretty hard to beat Bigass Shield That You Can Shoot Through when it comes to consistent tanking.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

debatable on the "any kind of respectable rank"

Yeah, if there is a decent mcree then I'm probably not going to be on pharah,

At any kind of respectable rank, there is always a decent McCree.

On the off chance there isn't one to begin with then one will quickly appear as soon as they see Pharah's juicy blue butt fluttering about. He counters her hard and is just generally great in the hands of someone with good aim.

That's what I mean by her having no place in the meta. Because the meta is filled to the brim with decent McCrees.

well we must just play with a ton of different people, not that I don't play against decent mcree's, they just don't mow me down like you're expecting. yeah getting 3 gold medals isn't the end all be all of stats, but it certainly shows pharah isn't "useless" either.

Then you aren't playing against good McCrees.

If they can't render Pharah useless they aren't good McCrees. If they can't reliably snap off headshots they aren't good McCrees.

Comparing our subjective experiences on this isn't going to prove anything. So tell you what. Look up a youtube video of a pro Overwatch tournament. Count how many times Pharah gets played. (Just so you don't get bored, count how many times McCree gets played while you're at it.)

Obviously pro play isn't representative of pleb play, but the higher rank you get the more it becomes so. And the higher you get, the more useless Pharah becomes.

I have no problem agreeing that pharah needs a mobility boost in the air, because if you're out in the open there are other heroes besides mcree that can take her down easily as well, but I wasn't initially referring to pro-meta of overwatch currently, just what is seen on average and how I perform with her. Mcree is still a bit of a fickle hero for blizzard, his range makes him insane sometimes, but without that range he's an easy ass target out in the open, so depending on what they do with other heroes, he might need to be slightly tweaked again.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Torb is anything but useless. There are a handful of maps where a well placed Turret will destroy a team.

Nope. He's totally useless.

Any team with half a brain cell between them will kill his turret within 3 seconds of seeing it. It's a static target with low HP that makes a distinctive noise. It's damage is constant but completely inconsequential against the nigh ubiquitous Reinhardt shield.

Torb can be useless by constantly building turrets that die immediately or he can be useless by running around trying to be a shitty McCree/shitty Reaper hybrid.

His ult can get work done, but a character who is useless without their ult is a useless character.

I hear he's widely used on the console version, to the point of getting a damage nerf, because console players with their crab-thumb wiggle-sticks can't hit static targets without aim assist.

But heres the thing, Zhukov, you're not always playing against a good team.

Against an uninitiated team? A well hidden turret will destroy them.

He's a completely a situational character, I admit, and I only use him on stages where I have at least 3 fall back spots to plant the turret when it goes down but I feel he's far from useless.

Also his main weapon is beastly. I kill so many tanks with that thing.